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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    We get the undead elves with zero lore for them. While those about whom he spoke as being "important to the race" are now race traitors in the Horde. Imagine if someone said that Void Elves are "important to the blood elf story" just before carting them off to Alliance.
    What do you mean. Since the VE have High-Elf customs and now DR customs, you can play it like an original High-Elf Dark Ranger. Which makes the Alliance able to (role)play the three types of Dark Ranger. Which is pretty ironic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    No, not just because the story, the whole treatment for the alliance.
    I don't wanna a v fair play thing, but we far from fair play.
    Is this an Horde bias thing again ?
    How can someone believe in Horde bias when the Alterac bridge exists ?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    What do you mean. Since the VE have High-Elf customs and now DR customs, you can play it like an original High-Elf Dark Ranger. Which makes the Alliance able to (role)play the three types of Dark Ranger. Which is pretty ironic.
    I meant Delaryn and the undead night elves, quote was about them.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I meant Delaryn and the undead night elves, quote was about them.
    Yeah, that's the usual fracture between what they tell us and what they let us play.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post

    And you can still take quests from Garrosh and Sylvanas if you play Pandaria content and Legion/BfA content.
    You can, but you can't

    - ever have Kargath in the Horde
    - ever have Cho'gall in the Horde
    - ever have Zul'jin in the Horde
    - see Cairne again

    etc. etc.


    The Horde questing is a disjointed mess specifically due to the constant changing of warchiefs --- where Garrosh, Vol'jin and Sylvannas are all there depending which xpac you are using with little to no context given.

    Alliance questing experience is significantly better, even if you disagree with the story direction.

    Does it suck to feel like you are losing?

    Absolutely.

    But I would argue it sucks more to be pidgeon-holed into the role of a villain when WC3 pushed your faction away from that route only to have it fall back into the tired trope not once (Garrosh) but twice (Sylvannas) with your character having zero agency on whether or not they learned the very first time (Warcraft 3).

    At least the Alliance experience is consistent without constantly re-treading the same storylines at the expense of faction progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Cho'gal and Kargath not horde characters when wow started, old horde maybe but not a new horde.
    Magni not alive now, he is a moving Alexa from amazon prime
    Zul'jin i don't know what u wanna from him, you got b elfs for that now the horde 80% Britney elfs, bring money and attention to the horde.
    Right, they were Old Horde --- which players looked forward to receiving at the time of lhe game's original launch given the following:

    - Ogres hinted at joining the Horde in Duskwallow Marsh
    - A city named after Kargath in the Badlands
    - Revantusk trolls constantly touting about the return of Zul'jin in the Hinterlands


    But blizzard went a different story direction - not bringing Ogres directly into the Horde as playable and pushing Cho'gall into a full-time villain role, pushing Kargath into a full-time villain role, and adding Blood Elves to the Horde ensuring Zul'jin wouldn't return.

    You can't bring up an argument about Alliance vs. Horde story bias, and how the Alliance has lost so much and the Horde so little without taking into account the things lost between the different iterations of the Horde.

    Gul'dan was only the ever real betrayer, and the one I'd have expected to never get back in Thrall's Horde. The biggest issue is that there are no Horde "heroes" you can pull from from the older games that make sense for the faction in current times, because the current Horde isn't evil --- whereas the Horde from WC1 and WC2 are objectively evil. The alliance doesn't have this unique problem.
    Last edited by wushootaki; 2022-06-23 at 08:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    You can, but you can't

    - ever have Kargath in the Horde
    - ever have Cho'gall in the Horde
    - ever have Zul'jin in the Horde
    - see Cairne again

    etc. etc.


    The Horde questing is a disjointed mess specifically due to the constant changing of warchiefs --- where Garrosh, Vol'jin and Sylvannas are all there depending which xpac you are using with little to no context given.

    Alliance questing experience is significantly better, even if you disagree with the story direction.

    Does it suck to feel like you are losing?

    Absolutely.

    But I would argue it sucks more to be pidgeon-holed into the role of a villain when WC3 pushed your faction away from that route only to have it fall back into the tired trope not once (Garrosh) but twice (Sylvannas) with your character having zero agency on whether or not they learned the very first time (Warcraft 3).

    At least the Alliance experience is consistent without constantly re-treading the same storylines at the expense of faction progression.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right, they were Old Horde --- which players looked forward to receiving at the time of lhe game's original launch given the following:

    - Ogres hinted at joining the Horde in Duskwallow Marsh
    - A city named after Kargath in the Badlands
    - Revantusk trolls constantly touting about the return of Zul'jin in the Hinterlands


    But blizzard went a different story direction - not bringing Ogres directly into the Horde as playable and pushing Cho'gall into a full-time villain role, pushing Kargath into a full-time villain role, and adding Blood Elves to the Horde ensuring Zul'jin wouldn't return.

    You can't bring up an argument about Alliance vs. Horde story bias, and how the Alliance has lost so much and the Horde so little without taking into account the things lost between the different iterations of the Horde.

    Gul'dan was only the ever real betrayer, and the one I'd have expected to never get back in Thrall's Horde. The biggest issue is that there are no Horde "heroes" you can pull from from the older games that make sense for the faction in current times, because the current Horde isn't evil --- whereas the Horde from WC1 and WC2 are objectively evil. The alliance doesn't have this unique problem.
    Kargath, Chogall, Zuljin and etc were NEVER PART OF THE THRALL’S HORDE.

    Its like asking for Garithos to be part of modern days Alliance or idk Medivh to join back in.

    And no, nobody was looking to get Old Horde characters because they would never join current Horde. Hell, they wouldnt even join Sylvanas Horde because while they were villains they were too self obsessed to be led by a fucken undead elf.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    You can, but you can't

    - ever have Kargath in the Horde
    - ever have Cho'gall in the Horde
    - ever have Zul'jin in the Horde
    - see Cairne again

    etc. etc.


    The Horde questing is a disjointed mess specifically due to the constant changing of warchiefs --- where Garrosh, Vol'jin and Sylvannas are all there depending which xpac you are using with little to no context given.

    Alliance questing experience is significantly better, even if you disagree with the story direction.

    Does it suck to feel like you are losing?

    Absolutely.

    But I would argue it sucks more to be pidgeon-holed into the role of a villain when WC3 pushed your faction away from that route only to have it fall back into the tired trope not once (Garrosh) but twice (Sylvannas) with your character having zero agency on whether or not they learned the very first time (Warcraft 3).

    At least the Alliance experience is consistent without constantly re-treading the same storylines at the expense of faction progression.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right, they were Old Horde --- which players looked forward to receiving at the time of lhe game's original launch given the following:

    - Ogres hinted at joining the Horde in Duskwallow Marsh
    - A city named after Kargath in the Badlands
    - Revantusk trolls constantly touting about the return of Zul'jin in the Hinterlands


    But blizzard went a different story direction - not bringing Ogres directly into the Horde as playable and pushing Cho'gall into a full-time villain role, pushing Kargath into a full-time villain role, and adding Blood Elves to the Horde ensuring Zul'jin wouldn't return.

    You can't bring up an argument about Alliance vs. Horde story bias, and how the Alliance has lost so much and the Horde so little without taking into account the things lost between the different iterations of the Horde.

    Gul'dan was only the ever real betrayer, and the one I'd have expected to never get back in Thrall's Horde. The biggest issue is that there are no Horde "heroes" you can pull from from the older games that make sense for the faction in current times, because the current Horde isn't evil --- whereas the Horde from WC1 and WC2 are objectively evil. The alliance doesn't have this unique problem.
    Cho'gall was always a monster in league with Gul'dan, plus he lead a clan of doomsday cultists. Kargath was an active member of the Shadow Council and only survived Orgimm's slaughter because he was stuck behind on Draenor with the rest of the Shattered Hand. And Zul'jin allied with the orcs to take down the High Elves. The Horde attacked Silvermoon until they couldn't pass the magic barrier then promptly marched to attack Lordaeron leaving the Forest Trolls high and dry. Any thought that Zul'jin would join the new Horde after that, plus said Elves joining the Horde was a pipe dream.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    That's kinda what everyone is waiting for yeah. At least the fight of the Horde wouldn't feel so empty and vain;
    Fair enough.
    #BringBackGarithos
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Kargath, Chogall, Zuljin and etc were NEVER PART OF THE THRALL’S HORDE.
    Correct, but Alleria, Turalyon, and Falstad weren't part of the new WC3 Alliance either.

    Its like asking for Garithos to be part of modern days Alliance or idk Medivh to join back in.
    Welcome to agreeing with me about the unique issue that the Horde has in regards to being unable to bring back old characters from previous RTS games. And there have been plenty of people that have wanted both Garithos and Medivh back over the years. Literally read the post above this.

    And no, nobody was looking to get Old Horde characters because they would never join current Horde. Hell, they wouldnt even join Sylvanas Horde because while they were villains they were too self obsessed to be led by a fucken undead elf.
    Again, thank you for agreeing with me. There was a time, pre-BC, when plenty of people wanted Forest Trolls with Zul'jin and Ogres with Cho'gall for the Horde. The actual Horde faction has changed drastically over the past 6-7 years though with very little positive forward movement, retreading tired storylines that go against what WC3 set up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetanothernewbie View Post
    Cho'gall was always a monster in league with Gul'dan, plus he lead a clan of doomsday cultists. Kargath was an active member of the Shadow Council and only survived Orgimm's slaughter because he was stuck behind on Draenor with the rest of the Shattered Hand. And Zul'jin allied with the orcs to take down the High Elves. The Horde attacked Silvermoon until they couldn't pass the magic barrier then promptly marched to attack Lordaeron leaving the Forest Trolls high and dry. Any thought that Zul'jin would join the new Horde after that, plus said Elves joining the Horde was a pipe dream.
    Doesn't change that all of them, like Turalyon, Alleria, Falstad, etc., were Horde-aligned "heroes". You expressly agree with my point that the WoW Horde has a problem of being unable to use characters from previous games --- an issue the Alliance simply does not have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Is this an Horde bias thing again ?
    How can someone believe in Horde bias when the Alterac bridge exists ?
    I don't really know about that Bridge thing, what is it?
    Yes it have some horde bias, Horde player wanna be savage, monster races because its cool, but don't wanna be evil at the same time, going to rampage time to time and don't wanna be accountable for it and they don't. Want everything, and pay nothing.
    Only the Taurens are not evil race and maybe the trolls but they are more grey, sadly they become toothless.

    Right, they were Old Horde --- which players looked forward to receiving at the time of lhe game's original launch given the following:

    - Ogres hinted at joining the Horde in Duskwallow Marsh
    - A city named after Kargath in the Badlands
    - Revantusk trolls constantly touting about the return of Zul'jin in the Hinterlands


    But blizzard went a different story direction - not bringing Ogres directly into the Horde as playable and pushing Cho'gall into a full-time villain role, pushing Kargath into a full-time villain role, and adding Blood Elves to the Horde ensuring Zul'jin wouldn't return.

    You can't bring up an argument about Alliance vs. Horde story bias, and how the Alliance has lost so much and the Horde so little without taking into account the things lost between the different iterations of the Horde.

    Gul'dan was only the ever real betrayer, and the one I'd have expected to never get back in Thrall's Horde. The biggest issue is that there are no Horde "heroes" you can pull from from the older games that make sense for the faction in current times, because the current Horde isn't evil --- whereas the Horde from WC1 and WC2 are objectively evil. The alliance doesn't have this unique problem.
    I know, you will be more happy if the horde stay at the path of the savage, monster races union, but the Blizzard ruin it with the blood elfs, but u cant change that now, it happened in TBC the horde ppl numbers going high, but cost the original horde aesthetic.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    Correct, but Alleria, Turalyon, and Falstad weren't part of the new WC3 Alliance either.



    Welcome to agreeing with me about the unique issue that the Horde has in regards to being unable to bring back old characters from previous RTS games. And there have been plenty of people that have wanted both Garithos and Medivh back over the years. Literally read the post above this.



    Again, thank you for agreeing with me. There was a time, pre-BC, when plenty of people wanted Forest Trolls with Zul'jin and Ogres with Cho'gall for the Horde. The actual Horde faction has changed drastically over the past 6-7 years though with very little positive forward movement, retreading tired storylines that go against what WC3 set up.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Doesn't change that all of them, like Turalyon, Alleria, Falstad, etc., were Horde-aligned "heroes". You expressly agree with my point that the WoW Horde has a problem of being unable to use characters from previous games --- an issue the Alliance simply does not have.
    Because modern horde traded Zuljin for blood elves.

    And Chogall/rest of the Old Horde would NEVER JOIN because they simply would not tolerate serving any of the New Horde chiefs and even Garrosh wouldnt let Cho’Gall in.

    Simply put its just not possible. You either entirely sacrifice blood elf race for one racist troll or make Horde a hated outcast again (ALL neutral faction would finally turn on them) and get a few evil orcs and an ogre from Warcraft 1-2.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because modern horde traded Zuljin for blood elves.

    And Chogall/rest of the Old Horde would NEVER JOIN because they simply would not tolerate serving any of the New Horde chiefs and even Garrosh wouldnt let Cho’Gall in.

    Simply put its just not possible. You either entirely sacrifice blood elf race for one racist troll or make Horde a hated outcast again (ALL neutral faction would finally turn on them) and get a few evil orcs and an ogre from Warcraft 1-2.
    That's exactly my point. Alliance doesn't have this issue.

    So not only does the Horde have less characters built up internally, several that are get villain-batted, or die...and we don't have reserves to pull from like the Alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    That's exactly my point. Alliance doesn't have this issue.

    So not only does the Horde have less characters built up internally, several that are get villain-batted, or die...and we don't have reserves to pull from like the Alliance.
    Chogall and Kargath were not "villain batted" they were villains from the get go. Chogall's "teacher" was Gul'Dan for fucks sake.

    And nothing stops Blizz from elevating other Horde characters to prominence... If they stop spending time to ruin Alliance stuff or mutilate another Alliance race they may find time to put more Horde characters into a spotlight that is not a pyre full of still alive Alliance civilians and children.

    But they love you too much to stop doing this. You see the flawed circle here? Their absolute unconditional adoration for you ruins your faction as much as their disregard and hate of Alliance ruins ours.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Fair enough.
    #BringBackGarithos
    If we bring back Garithos he'd probably be an undead and thus a Forsaken don't ya think ? :]

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    That's exactly my point. Alliance doesn't have this issue.

    So not only does the Horde have less characters built up internally, several that are get villain-batted, or die...and we don't have reserves to pull from like the Alliance.
    I mean, if anything, the Horde has more characters than it deserves.

    For instance, if I'm not mistaken, Sylvanas said in a novel that the Tauren should just join the Alliance. Indeed, in 8.3, we see Tauren leaders Baine and Mayla casually hanging out in Stormwind's Throne Room. There's really no reason why these characters are still Horde.

    You should be happy that the likes of Baine and Mayla are still in the Horde honestly, it's more characters than that faction deserves (according to Sylvanas, of course, but also according to logic).

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Chogall and Kargath were not "villain batted" they were villains from the get go. Chogall's "teacher" was Gul'Dan for fucks sake.
    So was the entire Horde...For two games, of which have largely been drawn on for a lot of WoW content. But none of the previous versions of the Horde can be used without changing it --- Look at the mess WoD became because they tried to retcon the Frostwolf Clan. And even then, that had to use time magic and alternate universes to even bring anyone from the Horde's gallery back.

    And nothing stops Blizz from elevating other Horde characters to prominence... If they stop spending time to ruin Alliance stuff or mutilate another Alliance race they may find time to put more Horde characters into a spotlight that is not a pyre full of still alive Alliance civilians and children.
    Right, nothing is stopping them. Except they don't do it. Only recently did we see development with Zekhan and Lillian, and Lillian didn't make any sense because she went from hunting necromancers to full-on supporting Sylvannas. And unless you played a Rogue in Legion, you don't understand why.

    But they love you too much to stop doing this. You see the flawed circle here? Their absolute unconditional adoration for you ruins your faction as much as their disregard
    and hate of Alliance ruins ours.
    Agreed here. Because its a lot easier to write monster races as going evil on a faction where the playerbase is split between liking WC1-2 versions vs. the WC3 version ---- then villain-batting the traditional "good guys". Alliance players get to feel justified in their hatred of the Horde faction as a result. And Horde players end up stop caring about the story and just being Horde for PvP racials.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I mean, if anything, the Horde has more characters than it deserves.

    For instance, if I'm not mistaken, Sylvanas said in a novel that the Tauren should just join the Alliance. Indeed, in 8.3, we see Tauren leaders Baine and Mayla casually hanging out in Stormwind's Throne Room. There's really no reason why these characters are still Horde.

    You should be happy that the likes of Baine and Mayla are still in the Horde honestly, it's more characters than that faction deserves (according to Sylvanas, of course, but also according to logic).
    The faction barrier should have dissolved after Garrosh. Any further Alliance vs. Horde conflict should have been handled how the Tushui vs. Huojin are handled on the Wandering Isle. They clearly don't hate each other, but have different ideas of what methods should be used --- each with valid points.
    Last edited by wushootaki; 2022-06-24 at 03:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post

    The faction barrier should have dissolved after Garrosh.
    Not the faction barrier.

    The Horde.

    Or at least, a major part of the Horde should have simply gone neutral or joined the Alliance.

    Baine is arguably one of Anduin's best friends, it doesn't make much sense that he remains in the Horde just because of a blood oath his father made with Thrall 15 years ago, which has already been repaid.

    Logically, what we should have seen is a mass exodus of many Horde races from the Horde to the Alliance (the "last great mortal superpower left on Azeroth" according to Blizzard), after MoP.

    So, see? You should be happy that the Horde has that many characters left. You should be happy that the likes of Baine and the Tauren are still in the Horde. Really, the Horde doesn't deserve them.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    If we bring back Garithos he'd probably be an undead and thus a Forsaken don't ya think ? :]
    Well they supposed to have that vaunted "free will" so what stops him from saying "like hell i would work with fucken Horde animals" and becoming a rallying figure for Alliance people who are done forgiving orcs who still have blood of their loved ones fresh on the axes?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not the faction barrier.

    The Horde.

    Or at least, a major part of the Horde should have simply gone neutral or joined the Alliance.

    Baine is arguably one of Anduin's best friends, it doesn't make much sense that he remains in the Horde just because of a blood oath his father made with Thrall 15 years ago, which has already been repaid.

    Logically, what we should have seen is a mass exodus of many Horde races from the Horde to the Alliance (the "last great mortal superpower left on Azeroth" according to Blizzard), after MoP.

    So, see? You should be happy that the Horde has that many characters left. You should be happy that the likes of Baine and the Tauren are still in the Horde. Really, the Horde doesn't deserve them.
    I'll gladly trade out the Tauren if it means we can get Ogres.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not the faction barrier.

    The Horde.

    Or at least, a major part of the Horde should have simply gone neutral or joined the Alliance.

    Baine is arguably one of Anduin's best friends, it doesn't make much sense that he remains in the Horde just because of a blood oath his father made with Thrall 15 years ago, which has already been repaid.

    Logically, what we should have seen is a mass exodus of many Horde races from the Horde to the Alliance (the "last great mortal superpower left on Azeroth" according to Blizzard), after MoP.

    So, see? You should be happy that the Horde has that many characters left. You should be happy that the likes of Baine and the Tauren are still in the Horde. Really, the Horde doesn't deserve them.
    No, not the Horde...the faction barrier --- because the Alliance at the time didn't have the resources needed to take over the cities and operate them once the war was over, or deal with the integration of Horde society into theirs --- Nor would they be willing to just kill all of them, because they don't sink to those levels.

    So as long as there was a leader willing to work with the Alliance and keep the peace, it'd have been fine for story purposes.

    Seeing as Vol'jin had been working alongside the Alliance since Cataclysm (remember the darkspear emmissaries sitting in the harbor for Zul'again patch?), there is no reason for Varian to think Vol'jin would go against his word...considering they had already worked together to deal with the Zandalari threat...and a second time to dethrone Garrosh.

    But rather than serve any actual meaningful story, it became apparent that Vol'jin was made warchief not to do anything of substance but provide a way for 2 of the worst stories (WoD --- and BfA/Shadowlands) to happen. Thrall was free to go Dr. Who, and the loa allowed Sylvannas to destroy any good faith remaining among lore lovers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  19. #79
    @wushootaki So your complaint is that WC3 completely rewrote the Horde such that the old cast can't be used. There's really only two solutions to that. Either build up new characters in line with the WC3 Horde, or revert back to the evil Old Horde.

    The problem is that Blizzard likes to waffle between catering to the Old Horde fans and the WC3 Horde fans (let alone the "I want the Horde to make Stalin look like a blushing virgin, but don't you dare call them evil!" loons). They can't go full Old Horde because a playable faction cannot be wiped out as villains, and they have no imagination when it comes to writing a heroic faction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Well they supposed to have that vaunted "free will" so what stops him from saying "like hell i would work with fucken Horde animals" and becoming a rallying figure for Alliance people who are done forgiving orcs who still have blood of their loved ones fresh on the axes?
    Alliance not wanting anything to do with him, I guess.

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