What if the Horde quests were written like Alliance quests ?

[wushootaki]

@wushootaki So your complaint is that WC3 completely rewrote the Horde such that the old cast can't be used. There's really only two solutions to that. Either build up new characters in line with the WC3 Horde, or revert back to the evil Old Horde.

Right --- and they saw the backlash over trying to revert to evil Old Horde...and simply...did it a 2nd time with Sylvannas.

The problem is that Blizzard likes to waffle between catering to the Old Horde fans and the WC3 Horde fans (let alone the "I want the Horde to make Stalin look like a blushing virgin, but don't you dare call them evil!" loons). They can't go full Old Horde because a playable faction cannot be wiped out as villains, and they have no
imagination when it comes to writing a heroic faction.

I don't disagree with this. It's a writing issue. Blizzard isn't good at writing and has always been better at world-building and generating ideas...they should stay away from intricate narratives that require skillful writing to tell correctly.

[VladlTutushkin]

Right --- and they saw the backlash over trying to revert to evil Old Horde...and simply...did it a 2nd time with Sylvannas.



I don't disagree with this. It's a writing issue. Blizzard isn't good at writing and has always been better at world-building and generating ideas...they should stay away from intricate narratives that require skillful writing to tell correctly.

Wrong. They saw backlash about being CALLED evil. They didnt saw genocide, war crimes and etc as evil. They want to do all that (and more, good old rape camps for draenei say "hy") but be called great heroes and not be inconvenienced by that in the slightest.

[loras]

If we bring back Garithos he'd probably be an undead and thus a Forsaken don't ya think ? :]

Nonsense, he's not hiding that fact under many layers of armor drenched in perfume, don't be silly. Now get on it and slaughter some inhuman scum!

[wushootaki]

Wrong. They saw backlash about being CALLED evil. They didnt saw genocide, war crimes and etc as evil. They want to do all that (and more, good old rape camps for draenei say "hy") but be called great heroes and not be inconvenienced by that in the slightest.

I mean...you are legitimately calling players rapists.


The number 1 complaint about both the Garrosh and Sylvannas story arcs was that it re-tread WC3's concept, and the Horde should have been beyond this point.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean...you are legitimately calling players rapists.

Never said players wanted to do that IRL, but after initial reation of Horde fans to Teldrassil i think they would definitely want their characters to participate in stuff like this.

[Varodoc]

I'll gladly trade out the Tauren if it means we can get Ogres.

Trading the Horde's breadbasket on Kalimdor for a small tribe of ogres living in a filthy swamp village? Seems like a good trade to me.

because the Alliance at the time didn't have the resources needed to take over the cities and operate them once the war was over,

This is not the argument I was making.

I am not saying the Alliance would have dismantled the Horde (although there are arguments to be made there too), I am saying that the Horde itself should have naturally dissolved. The Horde established by Thrall, a Horde based on honour failed. Some Horde races, like the Tauren, should have been horrified by what the Horde displayed in the war and should have simply switched sides or at least left the Horde.

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I mean...you are legitimately calling players rapists.



The number 1 complaint about both the Garrosh and Sylvannas story arcs was that it re-tread WC3's concept, and the Horde should have been beyond this point.

Strange, I don't remember any complaint from the Horde playerbase back when the Burning of Teldrassil happened.

In fact, I seem to recall the vast majority of Horde players praising the Horde for their massive victory in the War of Thorns (which was achieved by massively dumbing down the Aliance btw, for example by completely ignoring the Vindicaar), and making countless jokes about the burning tree. Which also got put into the game as a joke said by the Dark Iron PC.

Complaints though? I can't seem to recall any complaint from the Horde playerbase. Horde players were probably too busy enjoying the massive victory Blizzard wrote for them, while Alliance players could barely save 100 civilians in that quest.

[DatToffer]

Strange, I don't remember any complaint from the Horde playerbase back when the Burning of Teldrassil happened.

That's because you only remember what allows you to stay mad you emotional wreck.

[VladlTutushkin]

That's because you only remember what allows you to stay mad you emotional wreck.

Or you just making excuses. Admit it, for every Droite and that tauren guy there was ten other players booing them down and calling them "no true Horde" while celebrating genocide and wanting more, some even complained that they didnt got to shoot at the fleeing civilians themselves.

It was straight up witchunt in the Horde fanbase, where those who spoke against the burning got shut down and ridiculed even before Saurfang turned "traitor".

[Kithelle]

You forgot that they would have a massive amount of tech that they are never allowed to use because its OP, so they fall back to guns and swords.

Lets not forget we also have one of the most powerful magic users who could wipe out cities and the most she has ever done is use her magic to make a single sea ship fly and the baddy still got away

[Mardux]

Murlocs, Kobolds, and Quilboars are inferior and savage creatures who clearly lack sophisticated brains. There's a reason why no one cares about these monster races nor feels sorry for them. Killing them isn't "murder", it's "hunting". They are beasts who cannot be compared to elves, humans, dwarves, or even orcs.

If Horde quests were written like Alliance quests, you can kiss goodbye to all the choices Horde players were given throughout BfA.

If we're going by what is cannon, murloc brains aren't as unsophisticated as you want them to be. D.H.E.T.A. showed us that winterfin murlocs are just as intelligent as any other race you consider civilized. And Bran has explained that murlocs in general are smarter than you want them to be. Just because the race doesn't share cultures with alliance races, doesn't mean they lack sophisticated brains. Especially since they are known to have varying cultures of their own, complete with multiple languages, customs, deities, etc.

And Horde players weren't given any meaningful choices in BFA. They were led to believe blizzard gave them choices, but in the end they were all forced to side with Anduin.

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Or you just making excuses. Admit it, for every Droite and that tauren guy there was ten other players booing them down and calling them "no true Horde" while celebrating genocide and wanting more, some even complained that they didnt got to shoot at the fleeing civilians themselves.

It was straight up witchunt in the Horde fanbase, where those who spoke against the burning got shut down and ridiculed even before Saurfang turned "traitor".

"If a tree falls in the forest and *I'm* not there to see it, it never fell." - VladTutshkin, slightly paraphrased, June 2022

[Varodoc]

Lets not forget we also have one of the most powerful magic users who could wipe out cities and the most she has ever done is use her magic to make a single sea ship fly and the baddy still got away

I didn't even know you were referring to Jaina until you specifically mentioned the sea ship, which should make us reflect on just how nerfed the Alliance was in the Fourth War.

[wushootaki]

Trading the Horde's breadbasket on Kalimdor for a small tribe of ogres living in a filthy swamp village? Seems like a good trade to me.



This is not the argument I was making.

I am not saying the Alliance would have dismantled the Horde (although there are arguments to be made there too), I am saying that the Horde itself should have naturally dissolved. The Horde established by Thrall, a Horde based on honour failed. Some Horde races, like the Tauren, should have been horrified by what the Horde displayed in the war and should have simply switched sides or at least left the Horde.

This is where I start to disagree, at least from a Cataclysm perspective. During Cataclysm, I don't think anything was done that would make the Tauren question the Horde's leadership. Yes, there was a war, but it wasn't until Theramore that I think boundaries were really pushed --- and in that regard, Theramore was the way Alliance were entering the barrens.

I think post-Theramore, and into MoP, you're argument becomes much more compelling, because we see Vol'jin abandon Garrosh almost immediately.

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Strange, I don't remember any complaint from the Horde playerbase back when the Burning of Teldrassil happened.

In fact, I seem to recall the vast majority of Horde players praising the Horde for their massive victory in the War of Thorns (which was achieved by massively dumbing down the Aliance btw, for example by completely ignoring the Vindicaar), and making countless jokes about the burning tree. Which also got put into the game as a joke said by the Dark Iron PC.

Complaints though? I can't seem to recall any complaint from the Horde playerbase. Horde players were probably too busy enjoying the massive victory Blizzard wrote for them, while Alliance players could barely save 100 civilians in that quest.

The Vindicaar doesn't have access to argunite anymore, something everyone seems to conveniently forget. And yes, there were a ton of people that complained because Blizzard bait and switched about what happened at the tree. They managed to quell the first wave of complaints with "You don't know the whole story yet --- wait and see" and in the end it really was just Sylvannas burning the tree, which a lot of players thought was stupid and took issue with. Feel free to google the official forums to see how much hatred this moment got, from both factions. So much so, that they literally removed references of it from the new player experience.

[loras]

Or you just making excuses. Admit it, for every Droite and that tauren guy there was ten other players booing them down and calling them "no true Horde" while celebrating genocide and wanting more, some even complained that they didnt got to shoot at the fleeing civilians themselves.

It was straight up witchunt in the Horde fanbase, where those who spoke against the burning got shut down and ridiculed even before Saurfang turned "traitor".

I do remember a lot of mumbling about "traitors" now that you mention it. One of the better parts of BfA's storytelling in retrospect.

[wushootaki]

Lets not forget we also have one of the most powerful magic users who could wipe out cities and the most she has ever done is use her magic to make a single sea ship fly and the baddy still got away

I seem to remember her single-handedly holding off some of the strongest heroes of the Horde by herself, ensuring the Alliance army got away after a high-profile assassination was made in Horde territory, and live to tell the tale.

[Grazrug]

Win? Like what in OG siege? maybe, but we not destroy anything, from the thin air you got a whole Moria city under OG, so nothing destroyed, conquered, no prosecution. Win Arathi, the area outside even the dwarf territory, so hard to keep it. Darkshore is a wasteland don't even know why they not do it with ashenvale so really not getting anything here either. War in Ashenvale when cata happened, horde still there even today, horde got Azshara for free. Alliance lose Southshore (not really matter, but lose) Auberdine, quest like destroy a whole village with druid kids in it, later Theramore to complete the b*ner. Alliance get Gilneas and lost it a same time, Goblins lost an isle and get Azshara.
Lose without true consequence for the Horde and win for the Alliance with bitterness in my mouth.

Lordaeron, Darkshore, Stromgarde and Zuldazar were all big alliance victories. Blizzard has named them as such. I would trade with the alliance side of the story any day if it means our leaders stay alive and don't get replaced by trash characters that no one likes. Nobody asked for Voss, Gazlowe or Rokhan. They suck.

[sam86]

Instead you start permantly losing cities and lose every battle just to be told you win at the end because the bad person died.

show me where i can raid ur capital weekly and where i ur high king turned to loot piniata
heck show me how many of ur heroes turned to loot piniatas at all, while the horde list is disgustingly long, from Karagath Bladefist to Bladefist AU to Deadeye to Garrosh, heck the list of horde heroes who didn't get FUCKED is too short, almost same as alliance one (anduin to be exact, unless u count the 3 for 3 BFA raid)
The worst average alliance leader is turned neutral, the default for horde hero is to be made/brought back to turn to loot piniata, or be the Beta of all betas like Baine (tell me there is one single character more castrated than him in both sides)

“Place can be taken back” and yet Alliance only took back Darkshore and Arathi, but one is a posioned wasteland according to lore and nothing can live there, and another remains as “relevant” as paint drying on a wall.

the entire Cata zone was because alliance zones are far more than horde zones, but alliance massive QQ made blizz reverse the decision easily and fuck horde and make more lands to alliance, even if horde have 5 native races to Azeroth, including the first sentient race ever troll, but fuck them because alliance have humans
as of right now both sides have no access to 2 capitals (of course alliance love to forget that goblin zone is bye bye), and have more zones than horde, wining both wars, destroying horde everywhere, yay we won a skirmish while u won every war, fantastic
pls make blizz horde 'biased', i want to fuck ur high king daily and defile ur capital weekly
horde have more focus to be fucked, by all means take all that focus, i want to win 1 war
I honestly can't believe alliance dare to complain while they won every war, what if u lost one? how insane will be ur qq?

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Lordaeron, Darkshore, Stromgarde and Zuldazar were all big alliance victories. Blizzard has named them as such. I would trade with the alliance side of the story any day if it means our leaders stay alive and don't get replaced by trash characters that no one likes. Nobody asked for Voss, Gazlowe or Rokhan. They suck.

Gazlowe is neutral, Rokhan is who? (i'm not even sure who is he, the troll from wc3 tft campaign?), Voss interesting character but was never shown to be loyal to forsaken in first place
and let's not forget Baine the beta who is universally hated by both sides, which is surprise achievement since usually we don't agree on shit like that

[DatToffer]

Or you just making excuses. Admit it, for every Droite and that tauren guy there was ten other players booing them down and calling them "no true Horde" while celebrating genocide and wanting more, some even complained that they didnt got to shoot at the fleeing civilians themselves.

It was straight up witchunt in the Horde fanbase, where those who spoke against the burning got shut down and ridiculed even before Saurfang turned "traitor".

Nothing I can admit will ever stop you and the other guy crazy talk, that's been going on since 2018

So what's the point ? You've been howling like wounded animals for 4 years. Best course of action left for you is to take an airplane ticket for Irwing and bring your claims to Blizzard themselves.

[VladlTutushkin]

Nothing I can admit will ever stop you and the other guy crazy talk, that's been going on since 2018

So what's the point ? You've been howling like wounded animals for 4 years. Best course of action left for you is to take an airplane ticket for Irwing and bring your claims to Blizzard themselves.

And i will always respond with the simple fact that horde fans were screaming their throats dry whining about Calia, traitors, Council, and plethora of other things from "villain batting" to "not enough babies eaten on screen".

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show me where i can raid ur capital weekly and where i ur high king turned to loot piniata
heck show me how many of ur heroes turned to loot piniatas at all, while the horde list is disgustingly long, from Karagath Bladefist to Bladefist AU to Deadeye to Garrosh, heck the list of horde heroes who didn't get FUCKED is too short, almost same as alliance one (anduin to be exact, unless u count the 3 for 3 BFA raid)
The worst average alliance leader is turned neutral, the default for horde hero is to be made/brought back to turn to loot piniata, or be the Beta of all betas like Baine (tell me there is one single character more castrated than him in both sides)

the entire Cata zone was because alliance zones are far more than horde zones, but alliance massive QQ made blizz reverse the decision easily and fuck horde and make more lands to alliance, even if horde have 5 native races to Azeroth, including the first sentient race ever troll, but fuck them because alliance have humans
as of right now both sides have no access to 2 capitals (of course alliance love to forget that goblin zone is bye bye), and have more zones than horde, wining both wars, destroying horde everywhere, yay we won a skirmish while u won every war, fantastic
pls make blizz horde 'biased', i want to fuck ur high king daily and defile ur capital weekly
horde have more focus to be fucked, by all means take all that focus, i want to win 1 war
I honestly can't believe alliance dare to complain while they won every war, what if u lost one? how insane will be ur qq?

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Gazlowe is neutral, Rokhan is who? (i'm not even sure who is he, the troll from wc3 tft campaign?), Voss interesting character but was never shown to be loyal to forsaken in first place
and let's not forget Baine the beta who is universally hated by both sides, which is surprise achievement since usually we don't agree on shit like that

"Defile the capital" with zero consequences or lasting damage. Fucken game even refuses to remind that Orgrimmar was once raided, referencing it in total of TWO dialogues, one of which being comedic (Gazlowe and Khadgar) and leaving a single plaque in the tunnel leading to warlock zone of Orgrimmar which 99% of players will never see because of how it is placed.

In return your ass will be beaten like a drum in orchestra over several zones, expansions and story lines, and several of your races will be beaten into the dirt while Alliance egregiously dunks on them.

Also goblins IMMEDIATELY got Azshara as their new capital, with a huge Horde symbol carved into it and a huge head of Gallywix on a mountaint. What worgen got? Shit nothing and a village in Blasted Lands nobody even remembers about.

And when you "win" (after gruesome, infuriating, ignoble struggle which only shows you as weak and impotent at war) you will not demand ANYTHING but rather sign off more zones to Alliance and offer concessions because thats surely what a "winner" does.

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If we're going by what is cannon, murloc brains aren't as unsophisticated as you want them to be. D.H.E.T.A. showed us that winterfin murlocs are just as intelligent as any other race you consider civilized. And Bran has explained that murlocs in general are smarter than you want them to be. Just because the race doesn't share cultures with alliance races, doesn't mean they lack sophisticated brains. Especially since they are known to have varying cultures of their own, complete with multiple languages, customs, deities, etc.

And Horde players weren't given any meaningful choices in BFA. They were led to believe blizzard gave them choices, but in the end they were all forced to side with Anduin.

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"If a tree falls in the forest and *I'm* not there to see it, it never fell." - VladTutshkin, slightly paraphrased, June 2022

I was homestuck back then, and was pretty much doing two things - playing WoW and reading forums, with some other games on the side. So you can guess i got a front row seat for the whole event.

[Feanoro]

Nothing I can admit will ever stop you and the other guy crazy talk, that's been going on since 2018

Today I learned that the Alliance perspective and references to Horde fan behavior is "crazy talk". How dare people paying for a two faction game expect that the factions are treated equally!

[VladlTutushkin]

Today I learned that the Alliance perspective and references to Horde fan behavior is "crazy talk". How dare people paying for a two faction game expect that the factions are treated equally!

Or rather - how can they not trust the horde fan's word on "people totes hated it" when their own eyes saw entirely different picture and to this day horde players only complain about "betraying the warchief" and stopping the genocide.

Just take this forum for example. But nooo, we must be making things up. Making things up so well they become a reality.