Diablo 4 could end up having microtransactions

[Coldkil]

The more exploitative a P2W game is, the less an issue this is. The market would seem to naturally bifurcate.

Quoting only this because it sums up my point: it's the opposite, the issue is growing larger and larger because of this reasoning.

Allowing this kind of behavious to be normal means we're going to see worse and worse over time and it won't stay on mobile only, because, as you said, if profit comes from a small % of the playerbase, then we don't need a good product or a playerbase at all to make money.

All the choice we're getting is copy/pasted "freemium" games that try to hook you with fun things at the start but then devolve fast into a slog to make you pay money for literally being able to play. The game dies very fast but then we have hundreds more, all basic clones of each other.

Maybe it's only me at this point, but knowing before the start that i'm gonna crash into a wall i cannot overcome if i don't pay money, it just kills any resemblance of fun. The whole gaming scene is devolving into a race to get the most amount of money out of people with the least investment possible, which i agree sounds really good for a company but terrible for players, as quality is dropping down as fuck. Probably i'm just an old relic and should stick to old games at this point and ignore anything new that comes.

All of this if i have intended the previous posts in the correct way - if not, feel free to point it out.

[The Stormbringer]

If you buy an expansion or a new class - you win over those who don't. The definition of p2w changes to suit the needs of the outraged and very vocal minority

No one has ever fucking called an expansion pack or new class "pay-to-win". Don't be like this. Stop being intellectually dishonest. You know what pay-to-win means, and neither of those examples are even close. Or continue making excuses for businesses to screw over players with incredibly predatory and psychologically abusive practices? It's your life, but damn if that sounds pretty messed up to me.

- - - Updated - - -

DI was a mobile game. It was ported to PC because they got annihilated for making a big presentation about a mobile game when people were expecting to hear a major Diablo announcement about a second expansion for DIII or DIV. All they got was a condescending response of "Don't you guys have phones?".

Also, D:I has NetEase in the mix too whereas DIV is pure Blizzard.

Here's the thing that sinks your hopium-filled container ship: Blizzard approved of this game. Either they A.) didn't bother to look at the game beyond the surface level and simply smacked it with a rubber stamp to push it out, showing they don't give a shit about products labeled Blizzard, or B.) they thoroughly tested, investigated, and assisted NetEase with the creation of it, and it still met their standards for approval anyway, showing that they're absolutely incompetent and can't be trusted to make games anymore.

[Elim Garak]

if profit comes from a small % of the playerbase, then we don't need a good product or a playerbase at all to make money..

A small % of the playerbase, means you need playerbase, means you need a good product. Percents are funny like that. Zero playerbase equals zero whales. The bigger the playerbase - the more whales. Big playerbase only flocks to good products that can not only attract them but also keep them long enough for whales to see value in investing.

- - - Updated - - -

No one has ever fucking called an expansion pack or new class "pay-to-win"..

I didn't say someone had, but someone will, I personally wait for "cosmetics are pay to win because I have to pay to look fabulous"

[Nymrohd]

No one has ever fucking called an expansion pack or new class "pay-to-win". Don't be like this. Stop being intellectually dishonest. You know what pay-to-win means, and neither of those examples are even close. Or continue making excuses for businesses to screw over players with incredibly predatory and psychologically abusive practices? It's your life, but damn if that sounds pretty messed up to me.

People absolutely said the Necromancer DLC in D3 would be P2W, asserting that Necros would be the best class by far in the meta and everyone will want to roll one.

[The Stormbringer]

I didn't say someone had, but someone will, I personally wait for "cosmetics are pay to win because I have to pay to look fabulous"

Aahh, a fair misunderstanding then, my apologies. I've seen far too many people recently white knighting for this game and it's a little ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

People absolutely said the Necromancer DLC in D3 would be P2W, asserting that Necros would be the best class by far in the meta and everyone will want to roll one.

And then they weren't, and all those assertions were proven to be false. To clarify, I'm referring to reality rather than what people imagine.

[Coldkil]

A small % of the playerbase, means you need playerbase, means you need a good product. Percents are funny like that. Zero playerbase equals zero whales. The bigger the playerbase - the more whales. Big playerbase only flocks to good products that can not only attract them but also keep them long enough for whales to see value in investing.

I agree but to an extent. You only need really good marketing and present your product as good. Once that 2% is hooked, you don't need anything anymore. But yes, you need to start somewhere and have a base.

Just to get back on topic and for the sake of transparency, my point of view on p2w is that is there ANY way, direct or indirect, to acquire player power through money via official means then the game is p2w for me and it kills basically any goal i may have because i'll have this seed planted in my head about "is people ahead of me because they play more/are better or just swipe more?". I don't pretend people agree with me, but i also think that while a game is either p2w or not, there's degrees of it that may impact more/less on the f2p gameplay. Lost Ark is clearly p2w but is not as obnoxious as Immortal to me for example (mostly because even if you buy your gear upgrades, it doesn't give you the means to overgear/nuke the hard raid fights - gear score is used as an unlock system more than player power in that game imho).

Also this means i think WoW is currently p2w because you can buy boosts via the tokens. If tokens didn't exist, it wouldn't be p2w while boosts will still happen and you cannot do much about that.

D4 can have a shop, but given Blizzard current track record i want to see what really comes to us and i'm just skeptical as fuck.

[Elim Garak]

I agree but to an extent. You only need really good marketing and present your product as good. Once that 2% is hooked, you don't need anything anymore. But yes, you need to start somewhere and have a base.

Wrong. The moment you start losing those 98% - the 2% will stop paying and then leave as well, to that other game those 98% are flocking to. The playerbase is indivisible. You can categorize players by how much they pay - but that's an arbitrary division. Not a real one.

[Nymrohd]

I assume whales pay to show off. Heck in many games whales buy for their "friend circle" as well. If no one is playing BUT whales, there is little reason for them to be there.

[Fencers]

You need a premium stash tab to trade so you must spend money to unlock that, trading is a key part of the game, you have spent money on PoE. You dont have to spend much but you are forced to spend a little.

Trading via listing is a powerful aspect of the game. Though you don't need to engage in trading at all to progress. It's not required and trading can still occur person to person. Many play without trading and SSF is hugely popular. I am only taking issue with the wording that you used "have to" and "progress" and that is simply not true.

A useful and powerful tool, sure. Though there is no necessary spending in the way of progressing through Path of Exile. It's not especially difficult either because the circumvention of RNG is still tied to the requirement of luck and time- which tabs have no mechanical effect on.

People play and demonstrate the game at a very high level of play completely SSF all the time. That as a mechanical aspect invalidates any assertion otherwise that it is required to spend money to make progress. It's a contradiction mechanically.

That is not the case in Diablo Immortal expressly; you can condense play with the gameplay components of luck via spending. It's not required either, but you are able to distinctly avoid a gameplay aspect by spending money.

That can not be done in Path of Exile.

[Coldkil]

Wrong. The moment you start losing those 98% - the 2% will stop paying and then leave as well, to that other game those 98% are flocking to. The playerbase is indivisible. You can categorize players by how much they pay - but that's an arbitrary division. Not a real one.

Not really. Plenty of games that paying customers still play exactly because they have already invested so much in them. But again i partially agree because it's true that most people just flock to the new thing, independently if they're the 2% or the 98%.

Playerbase is not a monolith, is more of a blob of various things all in it.

- - - Updated - - -

I assume whales pay to show off. Heck in many games whales buy for their "friend circle" as well. If no one is playing BUT whales, there is little reason for them to be there.

Also this is true. Games don't suddenly get completely desert and will likely retain enough players to continue running, but being able to show yoursef as a "top player" is a great drive for whales and without public, they don't have much reason or people to show off to.

[Nymrohd]

Also this is true. Games don't suddenly get completely desert and will likely retain enough players to continue running, but being able to show yoursef as a "top player" is a great drive for whales and without public, they don't have much reason or people to show off to.

Which is why the game is free to play. A large lobby with a massive number of people coming and going and either admiring the whale showing off or being food for the whale in PvP.

[RH92]

I don't know, it's kind of tricky... Frankly, I don't even really care that much.

I am absolutely fine with cosmetics and even crafting mats. On the other hand I am not that keen on items being available there but I could live with it as long as the items are not exclusive and are obtainable in actual game. If it's just another mean to get what you want and you are willing to spend more money on a game, go ahead. I just hope it won't be like RMAH at the beginning of the D3 where itemization was purposely designed to force you into using it. I mean yeah, you didn't need to actually use RMAH but it was so time consuming to get usable gear, it felt actually unrewarding to sink time into the game.

What I don't get from reading some posts in this thread, what the fuck is wrong about paying for an expansion or even additional class?

[Valcrist09]

already confirmed to have them, already confirmed to have battle passes, matter of fact there hiring a manager to handle it.

[Fencers]

Wrong. The moment you start losing those 98% - the 2% will stop paying and then leave as well, to that other game those 98% are flocking to.

Not necessarily. I worked on games that have had relatively small player counts and a few upper-level customers can sustain a product for decades. When I worked for Frogster games, some servers had fewer than 1000 players daily. But the game could rake in 6 figures monthly easily with almost no effort. It did for decades and is still going despite even lower pops than when I worked there over 10 years ago.

Not just in video games either. This is also born out in clothing, snack foods, and hobby & luxury products. I've worked with a number of companies on finding their core market customer and it's all the same. Even gig economy workers such as through OnlyFans and BrandArmy are seeing this kind of customer retention.

Vanguard customers (early adopters that stay around) are hard to kill off. They really only stop buying the product when it is not available for the most part.

[Elim Garak]

Not necessarily. I worked on games that have had relatively small player counts and a few upper-level customers can sustain a product for decades.

Sure, a product. Not a big company that looks to grow though. Plenty of games that are in maintenance mode and earn their maintenance fee. But the company works on other games or already has one that earns more.

The ratio 2/98 is maintained even with 1000 players. But it's not a bread winner product.

[Coldkil]

Which is why the game is free to play. A large lobby with a massive number of people coming and going and either admiring the whale showing off or being food for the whale in PvP.

Yes - removing the initial entry barrier means a lot more people will at least try it because "hey, it's free".

[Nymrohd]

Yes - removing the initial entry barrier means a lot more people will at least try it because "hey, it's free".

Still DI is probably a fairly unique case. I don't know how many games enter the F2P mobile market with THIS level of brand recognition. Many acquire it but how many have it on day 1?

[Elim Garak]

Still DI is probably a fairly unique case. I don't know how many games enter the F2P mobile market with THIS level of brand recognition. Many acquire it but how many have it on day 1?

Many. Diablo is not the only known IP, not even the most known. Just look at star wars and marvel.

[Nymrohd]

Many. Diablo is not the only known IP, not even the most known. Just look at star wars and marvel.

Hmm. On one hand those are not gaming IPs. On the other hand, I don't think that matters for the mobile market.

[Elim Garak]

Hmm. On one hand those are not gaming IPs. On the other hand, I don't think that matters for the mobile market.

Star Wars is a very popular gaming IP since early 1990s
Marvel is from Early 1980s, Spider-man, man.