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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    A bit misleading, as it's not CHARACTER progress, it's SEASON OBJECTIVE progress - while character progress is about power, the season pass is purely about cosmetics. Even the one convenience advantage the season pass provides (leveling boosts) is decidedly NOT available for purchase but part of the free tiers.

    That's a bit like saying "you can buy progress in WoW!" only to find out it's ACHIEVEMENT progress; that's not what people would think when they first read it, so it's important to specify.

    As long as it's purely cosmetic, I really don't care much how they monetize it. By all means, give the MTX junkies their glowing golden god armors, whatever. As long as the actual CONTENT is free, we're good. Better than good, even, if more cosmetics money also translates into more content.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except that's NOT what you get.

    You get the game AND ALL THE FUTURE CONTENT UPDATES until the next expansion. Who, pray tell, is going to finance all that? Just the box sale? And all the running costs for servers etc. too?

    That content has to come from somewhere. You know what you get for a buy-the-box-and-never-pay-anything-else model? Diablo 3. Where the new "seasons" are a token mechanic that two people came up with and everything else stays the fucking same for 10 fucking years. Or heck Diablo 2, where you got new rune words and some copy/paste uber bosses in ALL OF 20 YEARS.

    I'm just not buying that line of thought, we are supposed to believe that a billion dollar company doesn't possess the recourses to invest in an expansion based on expected sales and now they need to charge $60 for the box + $20 (guessing) for expansions + seasons pass + micro transactions to pay for continued development? What drug induced fanboy fantasy world are folks living in?

    This is a money grab, pure and simple and all the explanations in the world from blizz apologists isn't going to change that.

    I mean I don't blame Blizz, in this day and age where whales and apologists and fanboys are utterly incapable of voting with their wallets, any company would be foolish not to take advantage of that and grab all the cash they can.

    Really the main thing I'm bummed about is being late to the party for soaking whales of their cash.
    Last edited by pahbi; 2022-08-21 at 05:16 AM.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    I'm just not buying that line of thought, we are supposed to believe that a billion dollar company doesn't possess the recourses to invest in an expansion based on expected sales and now they need to charge $60 for the box + $20 (guessing) for expansions + seasons pass + micro transactions to pay for continued development? What drug induced fanboy fantasy world are folks living in?

    This is a money grab, pure and simple and all the explanations in the world from blizz apologists isn't going to change that.

    I mean I don't blame Blizz, in this day and age where whales and apologists are utterly incapable of voting with their wallets, any company would be foolish not to take advantage of that and grab all the cash they can.

    Really the main thing I'm bummed about is that I was late to party for soaking whales of their cash.
    $60 gets you the base game, you get everything in it unlimited.

    season pass and cosmetics (which wouldnt exist if not for sale, so you are not missing anything from the base game) are taking the POE route to make the game live service with big seasonal content. you also get this without spending more if you dont want.

    expansions will be just that, massive expansions that out scale season content. you likely dont get these if you dont wanna buy them. base game funds expac 1, expac 1 funds 2, 2 funds 3, etc.

    if you dont like this, dont get the game. however seeing that you are here posting, we all know you will be playing day 1. if you have $60 to drop that is.

  3. #543
    I'm totally okay with cosmetic only shop and battle pass as long as the seassons are interesting like leagues in PoE and not some crap like"here you have two goblins instead of one" like in D3. I even think it's a good thing for the game because if the cash is flowing from cosmetics then theres bigger chance that the game will be developed for a long time and not abandoned like D3.

    And be realistic, today sales only from boxes will not cover developing new content (seasson content) for a long time because they are not earning all those moneys from boxes only to spend everything later to keep the game alive.

    And instead of rushed expansions every year I prefer smaller updates every 3 months that keep the game fresh.

    You don't even need to buy anything because in the game theres so many different amazing sets for every class that look gorgeous. I prefer this than totally f2p PoE when you have to buy anyway some tabs (PoE for me without currency, fragments, map and few others tabs is just unplayable at this point with all the stuff added) and you look like some clown from circuit unless you buy some MTX set. And the set prices in PoE are just way too high.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    I'm just not buying that line of thought, we are supposed to believe that a billion dollar company doesn't possess the recourses to invest in an expansion based on expected sales and now they need to charge $60 for the box + $20 (guessing) for expansions + seasons pass + micro transactions to pay for continued development? What drug induced fanboy fantasy world are folks living in?
    How exactly is this supposed to work, in terms of pure economics? You want an expansion to RETROACTIVELY fund things? You know that forever leaves you hanging with the bill, right, since that cycle can't be extended indefinitely. I'm all for critique and all, but there has to be some actual thought behind it.

    Substantial content costs money, that's just how it is. The more polished it is, the more money it costs. If you want running content updates, something needs to finance those updates. To somehow think a box sale price can magically deliver a AAA experience game AND ALSO pay for both the running costs of servers and support AND for future content updates is not understanding the mechanics of business on a fundamental level. Single-player games with that kind of polish give you a 20-30 hour experience on average; you want something that gives you 100s of hours, PLUS has ongoing online play, PLUS has regular free content updates that actually add substantial things, but you want it for the same price?

    You have no idea how business works. You're just hopping on the fanboi hate train without putting actual thought into your criticism.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Players can purchase Tiers-but they won’t speed up getting Season Boosts.
    That is what I meant with pay for progress that exists already in their monetization model. This particular quote is bolded in the quarterly update when talking about season pass, you definately can buy tiers for the season pass hence pay for progress. I didn't say you get anything great from doing it, but you can.
    So you only mean get more cosmetics by progress then? Because there is no other form of progress to be paid for and that is not what is ever meant by progress in pay for progress. Because your quote even says it won't speed up progress.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    How exactly is this supposed to work, in terms of pure economics? You want an expansion to RETROACTIVELY fund things? You know that forever leaves you hanging with the bill, right, since that cycle can't be extended indefinitely. I'm all for critique and all, but there has to be some actual thought behind it.

    Substantial content costs money, that's just how it is. The more polished it is, the more money it costs. If you want running content updates, something needs to finance those updates. To somehow think a box sale price can magically deliver a AAA experience game AND ALSO pay for both the running costs of servers and support AND for future content updates is not understanding the mechanics of business on a fundamental level. Single-player games with that kind of polish give you a 20-30 hour experience on average; you want something that gives you 100s of hours, PLUS has ongoing online play, PLUS has regular free content updates that actually add substantial things, but you want it for the same price?

    You have no idea how business works. You're just hopping on the fanboi hate train without putting actual thought into your criticism.
    So many lols...

    I guess all those times in the past where blizz spent money up front to make an expansion, then recouped the costs when selling the expansion were just illusions.

    Gosh whatever was I thinking...

    "fanboy hate train" bwwwwaaaaaahahahahahahahha....

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    I guess all those times in the past where blizz spent money up front to make an expansion, then recouped the costs when selling the expansion were just illusions.
    But that's not what you're saying.

    You're not saying the EXPANSION needs to pay for ITSELF.

    You're saying the expansion needs to pay for all the content that comes out BEFORE it sells.

    I can only repeat: critique is good. But people need to actually, you know, think about what they're saying. Or we end up with mindless drivel like this.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    So you only mean get more cosmetics by progress then? Because there is no other form of progress to be paid for and that is not what is ever meant by progress in pay for progress. Because your quote even says it won't speed up progress.
    Am just saying there is nothing in the update that specifically says they won't do it. I don't think they will, but they've left room to make it bad for us. They could sell convenience much like PoE does with stash tabs and this update still holds true with not selling us power. Never ever said they were lying or presented that they will sell progress, just pointed out that this update still gives them loopholes to shank us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    So many lols...

    I guess all those times in the past where blizz spent money up front to make an expansion, then recouped the costs when selling the expansion were just illusions.

    Gosh whatever was I thinking...

    "fanboy hate train" bwwwwaaaaaahahahahahahahha....
    Should also add that they've said they might sell expansions still. Think very first interview said cosmetics and expansions when asked about planned monetization.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    So many lols...

    I guess all those times in the past where blizz spent money up front to make an expansion, then recouped the costs when selling the expansion were just illusions.

    Gosh whatever was I thinking...

    "fanboy hate train" bwwwwaaaaaahahahahahahahha....
    wrong. vanilla box sales paid for tbc
    tbc paid for wotlk
    wotlk paid for cata
    etc

    subs paid for additional content during each expac

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Am just saying there is nothing in the update that specifically says they won't do it. I don't think they will, but they've left room to make it bad for us. They could sell convenience much like PoE does with stash tabs and this update still holds true with not selling us power. Never ever said they were lying or presented that they will sell progress, just pointed out that this update still gives them loopholes to shank us.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Should also add that they've said they might sell expansions still. Think very first interview said cosmetics and expansions when asked about planned monetization.
    update stated "Nothing offered in the Shop grants a direct or indirect gameplay advantage", stash tabs and the like would be an indirect gameplay advantage. so they have closed your "loophole".

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Am just saying there is nothing in the update that specifically says they won't do it. I don't think they will, but they've left room to make it bad for us. They could sell convenience much like PoE does with stash tabs and this update still holds true with not selling us power.
    While this is technically true, it's also idle speculation. The ONLY instance of convenience we know of so far they HAVE said specifically that it WON'T be available for purchase. They've also SPECIFICALLY called the shop "Cosmetics Shop" (capitals and all), and repeatedly said that it sells cosmetics. They never mentioned convenience in connection with the shop, it's not in the name they gave the shop, and the only time convenience came up they made it clear it WON'T be for sale.

    While of course they could just change their mind and do something else entirely (never any safeguard against that), I think it's a bit too much arguing in bad faith that they could just wriggle out of what they said and suddenly try to sell us convenience. Yes it's technically possible, but it's a speculation that completely flies in the face of what they've said so far.

    Now, all that being said, I personally also don't have a problem if they WERE to sell convenience, provided it's within reason and doesn't infringe unduly on the free experience. And I do agree that expansions are probably a separate thing entirely that isn't connected to the shop; as will be other forms of content like extra classes etc. It would not surprise me one bit if they come out with, say, a Crusader/Paladin class half a year after release that needs to be purchased. If and when that happens, it warrants further discussion - there's a bit of an overlap between what's MTX and what's DLC, or whatever nomenclature you wish to employ. That's a legitimate concern and topic of conversation, but I think it's something decidedly different than the cosmetics/convenience debate.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    A bit misleading, as it's not CHARACTER progress, it's SEASON OBJECTIVE progress - while character progress is about power, the season pass is purely about cosmetics. Even the one convenience advantage the season pass provides (leveling boosts) is decidedly NOT available for purchase but part of the free tiers.

    That's a bit like saying "you can buy progress in WoW!" only to find out it's ACHIEVEMENT progress; that's not what people would think when they first read it, so it's important to specify.

    As long as it's purely cosmetic, I really don't care much how they monetize it. By all means, give the MTX junkies their glowing golden god armors, whatever. As long as the actual CONTENT is free, we're good. Better than good, even, if more cosmetics money also translates into more content.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except that's NOT what you get.

    You get the game AND ALL THE FUTURE CONTENT UPDATES until the next expansion. Who, pray tell, is going to finance all that? Just the box sale? And all the running costs for servers etc. too?

    That content has to come from somewhere. You know what you get for a buy-the-box-and-never-pay-anything-else model? Diablo 3. Where the new "seasons" are a token mechanic that two people came up with and everything else stays the fucking same for 10 fucking years. Or heck Diablo 2, where you got new rune words and some copy/paste uber bosses in ALL OF 20 YEARS.

    Is that what you want, really?


    That's because League is the same game forever and ever, barring the odd special event. No one is going "hey why doesn't the entire game change every 3 months?" in LoL.

    You want F2P quality? Go play PoE. Deal with their indie graphics and animations, and acting-school VAs. That's the price you pay for F2P, an unpolished clump that some people adore but a lot of people just cannot stomach.

    This money for the box buys POLISH.

    You don't want or like that, that's cool. Don't buy it. That's what you SHOULD be doing anyway, as a responsible consumer.

    But when you criticize it, stay on the facts. Don't just invent things like how ALL the armors are going to be MTX only, or how you can suddenly BUY convenience, when we have actual, official word that neither of these are true.
    Well that would hold up if we are not going to pay for expansions AND season pass too.... but we do. So it is financed.

    I don't WANT F2P. I just understand, that they have to finance themselves somehow. Blizz is doubledipping.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Well that would hold up if we are not going to pay for expansions AND season pass too.... but we do. So it is financed.

    I don't WANT F2P. I just understand, that they have to finance themselves somehow. Blizz is doubledipping.
    I'm not sure I understand this.

    The MTX and Season Pass stuff is going to finance extra content. That way people who pay nothing get all the content, and the only thing they ever miss out on is cosmetics. Is that not a fair trade-off for extra content?

    To demand that the game should be F2P but ALSO still have all the content at AAA polish levels seems a bit unreasonable. F2P games either don't need to push a lot of (non-cosmetic) content (like, say, LoL) or they push content that isn't AAA levels of polish (PoE). You can't really have both in F2P because the money to make that content and make it good has to come from somewhere.

    That is all contingent on there actually BEING good content releases, of course. We don't know that yet. We trust that this is how it'll work, but it might not; in which case this all needs to be reevaluated.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Well that would hold up if we are not going to pay for expansions AND season pass too.... but we do. So it is financed.

    I don't WANT F2P. I just understand, that they have to finance themselves somehow. Blizz is doubledipping.
    Season pass is optional, and expansion prices cover expansion development plus profits, not keeping a team for live service support running after the fact.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Am just saying there is nothing in the update that specifically says they won't do it. I don't think they will, but they've left room to make it bad for us. They could sell convenience much like PoE does with stash tabs and this update still holds true with not selling us power. Never ever said they were lying or presented that they will sell progress, just pointed out that this update still gives them loopholes to shank us.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Should also add that they've said they might sell expansions still. Think very first interview said cosmetics and expansions when asked about planned monetization.
    From the blog:

    This season design requires that all sources of character power come from playing the game, so you will not be able to pay for power in Diablo IV.

    Hey everyone, I’m Kegan Clark, director of product for Diablo IV here to talk about our approach to live service monetization in Diablo IV. As we’ve discussed previously, Diablo IV will be a full-price game with a Cosmetics Shop and Season Pass—none of which provide any pay-for-power options.

    There will be a single track of rewards with Free Tiers that are unlocked just by playing the game and leveling, and Premium Tiers which provide no in-game power or advantage over other players.

    So, while many of these may look like powerful pieces of gear, they have no in-game stats.

    I think those quotes are pretty specific to not selling any power or advantages.

    We will get free seasonal updates and expansions.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    From the blog:

    This season design requires that all sources of character power come from playing the game, so you will not be able to pay for power in Diablo IV.

    Hey everyone, I’m Kegan Clark, director of product for Diablo IV here to talk about our approach to live service monetization in Diablo IV. As we’ve discussed previously, Diablo IV will be a full-price game with a Cosmetics Shop and Season Pass—none of which provide any pay-for-power options.

    There will be a single track of rewards with Free Tiers that are unlocked just by playing the game and leveling, and Premium Tiers which provide no in-game power or advantage over other players.

    So, while many of these may look like powerful pieces of gear, they have no in-game stats.

    I think those quotes are pretty specific to not selling any power or advantages.

    We will get free seasonal updates and expansions.
    yes, lets totaly trust the "you cant buy gear in Diablo:I" guys

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinured View Post
    yes, lets totaly trust the "you cant buy gear in Diablo:I" guys
    I do trust them when they say you can't buy power. Just I really want to see the actual store before I believe that it won't have anything else than cosmetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's a bit like saying "you can buy progress in WoW!".
    Maybe a bit poor example because you absolutely can buy progress in WoW. But yeah most people won't see cosmetics as progress.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinured View Post
    yes, lets totaly trust the "you cant buy gear in Diablo:I" guys
    Different team, and gems aren't gear.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinured View Post
    yes, lets totaly trust the "you cant buy gear in Diablo:I" guys
    Fair point, but I think we all knew that D:I was going to be P2W given the mobile nature of it to begin with. Sure, Wyatt's dishonest framing doesn't do Blizzard any favors, but it's extremely unlikely they'll sell gear with power directly given the vastly different playerbase on PC/console vs. mobile.

    Sure there's still a chance, but that's why we wait until launch to see how the cash shop looks before deciding to purchase or not. I'm confident it'll stick to cosmetic and maybe some minor convenience, but if we discover otherwise then we can decide wither it's still worth buying or not.

  19. #559
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    You will be able to use real world currency to increase your characters level. It doesn't matter how much they try to word around the goddam thing, there will be P2W to some extent in Diablo IV, even if post launch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    Different team, and gems aren't gear.
    Same company, PR comes from Blizzard, how can you be so naive after being repeatedly fucked in the ass by a company that only wants your money?

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoibert the Bear View Post
    Same company, PR comes from Blizzard, how can you be so naive after being repeatedly fucked in the ass by a company that only wants your money?
    Because this time they mentioned that you can't buy power. In Diablo Immortal they were quite smart: they said you can't buy gear; so they put all the power into the gems.

    Also it's not a smartphone game; blizzard will milk all the money out that they probably can; but they will NOT sell power this time; simply to bring in more players to the diablo franchise. And if it is just to advertise diablo immortal more. Because you can be 100% sure:

    On Diablo 4 release, Diablo Immortal will have a player spike.

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