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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    Yes they have
    No, they said they won’t sell player power. That does not mean there won’t be any mtx.

    My bet? They will sell cosmetics/mounts and MAYBE the “usual” 5 bucks seasonal battle pass that grants extra rewards (mostly basic gems and crafting materials related) upon progression.

  2. #342
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  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And where is the problem?^^ Modern games usually have some kind of microtransactions anyways.
    And where is the problem? That MTX sucks.
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  4. #344
    As long as it's not too heavy on the player power/mechanics, I'm fine with it.
    MTX/tabs/storage space etc, is a good way to keep things profitable while also not fucking over the player base! <3

  5. #345
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    They stated in 2019 and in a recent interview no selling power.
    Somehow I still have my doubts, what with them being intellectually dishonest and saying that they weren't selling gear when they were selling gems, because "Gems aren't gear!" when what people were actually talking about was player power, which gems absolutely are.

  6. #346
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    No, they said they won’t sell player power. That does not mean there won’t be any mtx.

    My bet? They will sell cosmetics/mounts and MAYBE the “usual” 5 bucks seasonal battle pass that grants extra rewards (mostly basic gems and crafting materials related) upon progression.
    Player power is such a finnicky thing though. Like the example of Wyatt Chang and Gems vs Gear as player power. Also would a XP boost (or magic find increase boost) be considered a player power MTX?

    Technically, it doesn't directly affect player power but by shortening the time it takes to level to max or increase loot drops to be more favorable that could shift the balance of player power to a more P2W bias while still remaining a "non-player power" MTX.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlz0rz View Post
    As long as it's not too heavy on the player power/mechanics, I'm fine with it.
    MTX/tabs/storage space etc, is a good way to keep things profitable while also not fucking over the player base! <3
    Eh depends on how much of a QoL those MTX add.

    Like let's say that you're limited to 4 character slots... But could buy additional slots for $1.99, that could be annoying considering that you have 5 character classes (so far in D4) meaning that you couldn't start up 1 of each class.

    Similarly with storage space, taking a page from PoE, your basic tab is so limiting compared to a premium or quad tab. And then those specific tabs are quite a QoL add. As others have stated, you don't NEED to purchase the extra tabs from PoE to play but they do improve upon the experience quite a bit.

    So then the question also arises for D4, what is the total price a player would need to spend to have an enjoyable experience? Is it just the up-front purchase cost or will there be certain MTX that are effectively must-buys which then increases the overall cost of D4?
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  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    The listing in question, which is for a Product Manager for Diablo 4, reveals that the successful candidate "will play a critical role in managing the Diablo 4 in-game store experience," which is described by the listing as "a key component of the game's seasonal content strategy." Whoever gets the job will also be responsible for identifying sales trends and quantifying purchase behaviors, as well as using tools to configure prices and availability within the in-game store.

    https://gamerant.com/diablo-4-diablo...otransactions/

    The job add in question:

    https://careers.blizzard.com/global/...ager-Diablo-IV
    Not sure if you've been playing video games or just reading forums for the last decade but even wow has cosmetics for sale in game now, and many other things. This is completely normal in games

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is probably overly-narrow.
    I do think it ought to be narrow in definition. Gameplay is how the game operates; the rules that govern interaction. It is not valid to add aspects outside of the operation of any game. Gameplay ought to only be talked about strictly.

    Trading's a part of PoE.
    Which is optional. Solo Self Found exists as an actual mode with support gameplay operation. No compulsion of gameplay requires Trading in POE.

    Is it beneficial to trade? Absolutely. Is it required to progress? This is flatly false not only does the gameplay not require this action or process, but game modes exist that disallow it officially and players progress to the literal highest achievable progress without trading- officially.

    https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3266072
    https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3266070

    Trading is a powerful tool. It is not a required tool in Path of Exile. Spending money to trade efficiently is not required in any way by the actual gameplay of the game. Trading is not even disallowed without the premium tabs. You can still trade without them, it's just less convenient. An annoyance, but not a block to progress as the other player suggested.

    Does that mean "leveling up" is "not expressly required in the gameplay", since you can still log in and run around the town?
    Yes. You are still engaging with gameplay. If a game allowed you to only click the start button and required a penny per second to play, clicking the start button is enough.

    You're fundamentally distinguishing based on what you subjectively want to get out of the game.
    This is a misunderstanding. Gameplay is just how the game operates. Our attitude toward is another matter.

    If you told me "this game requires the player to do X or Y to play" then I would reasonably expect that the gameplay enforces this requirement absolutely. Not optionally. Otherwise, the requirement is self-imposed at best- and that is the other's guy's subjective feeling.


    How would you define "expressly required" in that kind of sense?
    I don't know how the gameplay of TF2 works. I honestly don't understand what you were doing or how it "broke/twisted mechanics" and so on. Sorry.

    We don't even know what the price point and such is gonna be, for D4.
    I suspect it will be similar to Diablo 3 based on the recent interviews. But who knows?

    I was excited for Immortal, I do enjoy mobile gaming, and Diablo is my favorite franchise. Though I admit that I also am cautious of the microtransactions after Immortal. Not that I mind spending in Immortal, but that game directly allows the microtransactions to circumvent or truncate gameplay mechanics. That is worrisome to me as a player and consumer because I think it is less fun to pay for the loot pinata per whack.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-06-15 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #349
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    What argument is used in favour of pay to win? It's possible, just slower?

    Again; it's completely misrepresentative to present PoE "p2w" and any other p2w that I have ever played. It's like saying someone who stole a loaf of bread and someone who stole 5 million dollars are the same, just because they are both "theft".

    4 tabs is absolutely enough. 1 tab is absolutely enough. If you "need" the many extra tabs its because you play the game a LOT more than average, at which point it's perfectly reasonable to expect a very small further investment; but again, you can absolutely do without them even then. You will have to be more picky with what you pick up and selling won't be as easy, but many, many players play the game in solo self found leagues without any trading at all.

    This becomes even more true with changes to atlas passives that allow you to block specific content, meaning that certain tabs you can just entirely block from your progression if you want to. Again, you don't need to, but you absolutely can.

    There is nothing in PoE that you absolutely can't do in a reasonable time frame without paying a cent, including trading. This is not the same, at all, as games like DI that put a paywall or invisible barriers in place where not paying hard-stops your progress.
    For some reason this post lipped a switch in my brain, and I realized the entire discussion is missing the point, somehow. The very concept of "P2W" is distorted, because of the "W".

    Games like Diablo have a minor competitive component, leaderboards and the like, but they mostly aren't directly competitive, not head-to-head battling like an arena battler or fighting game. In those kinds of games, sure, "pay-to-win" would be egregious, since they're supposed to be about player skill vs player skill; it violates the entire notion of the central competition the entire game is based upon.

    But Diablo doesn't have that. A lot of MMORPGs don't, either. There often isn't even a "win state" to begin with. How do you "win" at Diablo? By beating the end boss? Of course not. That's when the game truly starts, generally. To the point that in D3, they've created ways to just completely avoid the story entirely and get right to what people are looking for. There is no long-term "win" state to be achieved; you'll always be grinding for better gear. And if you DO manage to "finish" that character, there's a bunch more. And there's a seasonal cycle added to regularly refresh this. There is no "winning", long-term.

    And even in the short term, "winning" is just . . . the gameplay. Clearing rifts, killing bosses, that's "winning". Paying to fast-track that only does one thing; it reduces the amount of gameplay you can get out of the game. The only way that's even a benefit to a player is if they have a limited schedule and can't spend as much time playing as they'd like but still want to advance to later stages. These aren't the people who'd be competing on leaderboards even with P2W features. And if leaderboards are filled with whales who will also spend time grinding, why would I care that much? I don't play Diablo games to rank on leaderboards in the first place. I practically never play anything but solo, in fact.

    You're paying to "go fast" and "play less". I have more of an issue with D:I apparently limiting playtime unless you pay, than anything else they're offering.

    And now, let's turn to something like PoE's model (or SW:TOR's, which is similar in this respect). Here, they shortchange the player on quality of life features. Stash tabs and expanded inventories and other such things, which the lack of directly negatively impacts on the player, in the hopes that making their experience worse will encourage paying to ameliorate that. This is incredibly hostile to the player experience. Far more than what people are describing in D:I, or apparently worried about for D4. It's intentionally creating a "bad" player experience just so you can sell a "better" one. I tried PoE, and went back to Diablo 3. Because of shit like this. It's not "P2W", sure, it's "pay to enjoy properly". That's not better.

    I'd much rather have MtX that pay for XP boosts or replace grinding than locking QoL features behind a paywall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't know how the gameplay of TF2 works. I honestly don't understand what you were doing or how it "broke/twisted mechanics" and so on. Sorry.
    It's a team shooter; two teams on either side of a map doing capture-the-flag type stuff.

    The servers I was on were doing things like "how tall a tower can we make if we try and stand on each other's heads", because TF2 mechanics let you run through teammates' hitboxes, but not enemies'. Or surf maps, which exploiting a weird movement glitch on certain terrain geometry to let your character "surf" along surfaces, turning a shooter into effectively a weird-ass physics-based race-type game.

    Like, check this video (won't embed, because it's a bit of a derail); https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mBhl86g5I
    Whole servers where you did stuff like that rather than shoot at each other and try and take capture points, which was supposedly "the gameplay", by original design.


  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's a team shooter; two teams on either side of a map doing capture-the-flag type stuff.

    The servers I was on were doing things like "how tall a tower can we make if we try and stand on each other's heads", because TF2 mechanics let you run through teammates' hitboxes, but not enemies'. Or surf maps, which exploiting a weird movement glitch on certain terrain geometry to let your character "surf" along surfaces, turning a shooter into effectively a weird-ass physics-based race-type game.

    Like, check this video (won't embed, because it's a bit of a derail); https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mBhl86g5I
    Whole servers where you did stuff like that rather than shoot at each other and try and take capture points, which was supposedly "the gameplay", by original design.
    I watched the whole video to get a grasp of your point. Though I still have not played TF2 in such a way. So forgive my admitted ignorance here about the game.

    If the game operates in that way, that is gameplay. Such as how your character slight bumps to auto-correct when you hit a door frame at an odd angle in HL1. That is a process of how the rules governing play & interaction. That is all fine.

    How players are "supposed" to play a game is nonsense. Games have a set of rules that allow interaction; the door slide in HL1, the rocket jump in Quake, the hand time off ledges in Mario Bros 3., et cetera.


    There is design intention- but design and gameplay are not the same things. based o the video provided, I would say how the player is interacting is still expressly required by the gameplay. You shoot, use the movement commands, the geometry in the game space has interactions that are governed by a set of rules, etc. I see the player using the jumps command, mouse interactions, etc. To do any of this you have to interact with the gameplay. It is required to do so.

    If I am wrong about their interactions in the video, I apologize for the lack of familiarity.

    I bring this up in the context of POE and Immortal here because the MXT we see in Immortal* is an expression that directly has a gameplay function that circumvents the game mechanics. In POE, this is not the case. Your progress is not limited to, bound or otherwise necessarily affected by the option to trade efficiently with MXT tabs. That is simply not true as the other player suggested.


    *Let me restate we don't really know what it will be in D4.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-06-15 at 03:30 PM.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Nonsense, people do it all the time. SSF doesn't trade and it's not hard to progress maps at all; it's just slower.

    And again, let's reiterate that you can buy every stash tab in the game for $80, or you can buy the primary ones needed for $40, and if you only want one to trade its $15 for a quad tab. That is permanent, across all characters on the account, forever. Comparing this to DI is monumentally misrepresenting a false equivalence.
    Im not comparing anything to DI, this is about D4 which will not have mircrotransactions that are anything but cosmetic, you cant play PoE properly without paying, you will not have enough stash space and you cant make money effectively, anyone who plays PoE buys at least a few stash tabs to manage everything much easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    These are not gameplay requirements. This is about Diablo and its microtransactions so I am not going to detail your errors here. But if any aspect of any game is not expressly required in the gameplay it is 100% irrelevant. Gameplay is the only purpose of video games. Nothing else.
    The inv tabs and such are essential things you need to play the game regardless of mode, there are not many players doing SSF that dont already have the tabs anyway, you cant play PoE properly without several of the extra tabs to store everything. In D4 you unlock those things through playing the game and only have the option to buy cosmetics, F2P games make essential unlocks so most players are forced to at least pay a little.
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  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Somehow I still have my doubts, what with them being intellectually dishonest and saying that they weren't selling gear when they were selling gems, because "Gems aren't gear!" when what people were actually talking about was player power, which gems absolutely are.
    It seems to be brought up a lot, but doesn't it mean that they are careful with the words?
    Saying they don't sell gear is true, but as you mentioned you can buy gems. They didn't use the term "power" for D:I.
    I'm not arguing it's not slimey or not trying to deceive people...but technically they held true to their words.

    So if we use that as a preface for how they handle conversations with the public it seems their specific words matter.
    Which means that they have now used the specific words saying "won't be selling power". If we take their words in the same manner as for how D:I played out it seems to strongly suggest there won't be any.

    Could of course be a "technically" not selling power thing to circumvent it...

    Just a fun observation to me though.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-06-15 at 05:02 PM.
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  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The inv tabs and such are essential things you need to play the game regardless of mode, there are not many players doing SSF that dont already have the tabs anyway, you cant play PoE properly without several of the extra tabs to store everything. In D4 you unlock those things through playing the game and only have the option to buy cosmetics, F2P games make essential unlocks so most players are forced to at least pay a little.
    There is no such thing as "play properly". The extra tabs are not essential to buy, they are just pleasant. This is a different argument from saying you need those things and they are required. That is false.

    We don't know to what extent D4's MTX offerings will be in actual practice.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There is no such thing as "play properly". The extra tabs are not essential to buy, they are just pleasant. This is a different argument from saying you need those things and they are required. That is false.

    We don't know to what extent D4's MTX offerings will be in actual practice.
    There is not enough stock inv space to store everything you want on 1 char let alone if you have more than one so what you say is false, the tabs are needed to actually play the game.

    It doesnt cost much to unlock all the things you would need for the game but dont lie saying you can play the game properly without them.
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  15. #355
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It seems to be brought up a lot, but doesn't it mean that they are careful with the words?
    Saying they don't sell gear is true, but as you mentioned you can buy gems. They didn't use the term "power" for D:I.
    I'm not arguing it's not slimey or not trying to deceive people...but technically they held true to their words.

    So if we use that as a preface for how they handle conversations with the public it seems their specific words matter.
    Which means that they have now used the specific words saying "won't be selling power". If we take their words in the same manner as for how D:I played out it seems to strongly suggest there won't be any.

    Could of course be a "technically" not selling power thing to circumvent it...

    Just a fun observation to me though.
    Funnily enough, the first thing that came to my mind when they said they "won't be selling power" is that instead they'll be selling a way to speed up progress. "XP boost and level boosts aren't power!" they'll say, "It's just saving you time!" Or something along those lines... Let's just say I've gotten very cynical about them, and for good reason.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    No, they said they won’t sell player power. That does not mean there won’t be any mtx.

    My bet? They will sell cosmetics/mounts and MAYBE the “usual” 5 bucks seasonal battle pass that grants extra rewards (mostly basic gems and crafting materials related) upon progression.
    Actually, they specifically said cosmetic only

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Funnily enough, the first thing that came to my mind when they said they "won't be selling power" is that instead they'll be selling a way to speed up progress. "XP boost and level boosts aren't power!" they'll say, "It's just saving you time!" Or something along those lines... Let's just say I've gotten very cynical about them, and for good reason.
    It depends on how the actual game works out. If XP boosts/level boosts only get you to endgame, for example, that's pretty much fine. It wouldn't really work in a game like D2, but in say D3 the option to buy instant lvl 70 would be entirely fine. Nobody would care. We don't quite know how leveling in D4 works in the larger framework of the game, but it's entirely conceivable that just skipping the leveling process to get to endgame is a totally reasonable thing to exist on the shop.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Funnily enough, the first thing that came to my mind when they said they "won't be selling power" is that instead they'll be selling a way to speed up progress. "XP boost and level boosts aren't power!" they'll say, "It's just saving you time!" Or something along those lines... Let's just say I've gotten very cynical about them, and for good reason.
    I hear ya, though I don't get so miffed about Xp boosts or lvl boosts in general since i find leveling to be a relic of the past really. Leveling has been the same for such a long time and usually the game loop revolves around getting to max level and then the character progression starts.
    Though I get people who might enjoy racing will understandably be miffed...

    If those effect paragon levels though It would be bad. But then again, that to me would be buying power. Since paragon is just power.
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  19. #359
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It depends on how the actual game works out. If XP boosts/level boosts only get you to endgame, for example, that's pretty much fine. It wouldn't really work in a game like D2, but in say D3 the option to buy instant lvl 70 would be entirely fine. Nobody would care. We don't quite know how leveling in D4 works in the larger framework of the game, but it's entirely conceivable that just skipping the leveling process to get to endgame is a totally reasonable thing to exist on the shop.
    It saddens me that you have convinced yourself that anything in a shop for a game you already pay for is "totally reasonable", but for this I will agree to disagree. Personally, I think cosmetics are the farthest it should ever go, and even there I find it distasteful. But again, to each their own.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And where is the problem?^^ Modern games usually have some kind of microtransactions anyways.
    Dont be a sheep.

    look at games like Elden ring for inspiration on how games should be made.

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