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  1. #21
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    But that's exactly my point.
    NW Tyrande did basically nothing during the liberation of darkshore.
    She did not "take the fight to the jailer", she was randomly killing unimportant underlings from an endless army.
    The NPCs from the Amalgam of souls were not returned to Ardenweald, they were destroyed to emdz their suffering.
    She tussled with the attackers in Ardenweald, but it had no impact. Sylvanas still won and got the key. Tyrandes presence there was meaningless, because her powers left her for unknown reasons just as they would have made a difference.
    She forced Nathanos, the acting general of Darkshore, to flee and killed one of Sylvanas' val'kyr (Brynja). She also led the taking of Bashal'aran, which served as the base of Kaldorei operations on the warfront. Not to mention slaughtering the majority of Belmont's standing forces in Darkshore. Keeping the Jailer occupied on his home turf by killing tons of his minions definitely helped. After destroying the Amalgam, Tyrande left to continue the hunt for Sylvanas and the PC hovered up the remaining Kaldorei souls into their soulkeeper and returned to them to Ardenweald, as per "Stage 11: Salvation of the Night Elves" of the quest-chain "The Recovery of Tyrande Whisperwind." Defeating Sylvanas isn't a requirement for actions occurring or having an impact, and in slaying a ton of Mawsworn and occupying Sylvanas, she saves many Night Fae lives (existences?) in the process, despite Sylvanas escaping.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  2. #22
    I mean the purpose was obviously a story arc about revenge and how it can become all-consuming to the point of being harmful, while balancing that out with a need for justice.

    Whether that hit for you or not is entirely personal, I thought it was OK except obviously going at it in chapters separated by such long haituses meant that the period where Tyrande was expected to let go of the night warrior's rage long before we actually stop Sylvanas and bring her to some form of justice or get any actual renewal for the night elves in the form of a new home, left a sour taste in everyone's mouths for obvious reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I was thinking again about the night warrior arc and I feel like I missed something, because if I remember it correctly, it was completely useless and did nothing for the story.

    What happened?
    Darkshore gets attacked, NEs lose
    Tyrande goes Night warrior, attacks Darkshore again and contributes to the victory, however not in any extremely meaningful way. She then faces off against Nathanos, who was NOT infused with Jailer power like Sylvanas was. She should have been able to easily beat him even without the NW power, but even with it, she can not kill him.
    SL happens and she joins the frey, jumps into the maw and starts killing Jailor forces, which we later learn are basically endless.
    She makes it to Torghast and we help her kill the Amalgam of Souls, which again was no impact on anything, except destroying those NE souls so they don't have to suffer anymore. This could also have been done by the maw walker alone, she was just "tagging along"
    We then go on a long quest line to help Tyrande learn how to control the Night Warrior Power and in the end she succeeds.
    She uses her newfound control to attack Sylvanas and in the last moment before she kills her, for yet unknown reasons she loses her Night Warrior Powers for a few moments, allowing Sylvanas to escape.
    We will most likely never know why (remember: Elune only learns about the whole Jailer/Maw situation and Sylvanas much later, there is even a cinematic about it)
    We fight Sylvanas and beat her, without Tyrande, and afterwards get the "you have to chose between vengeance and renewal" part, and she basically gives up the NW powers again.

    Wtf happened here and why did this storyline exist? What did I miss?
    You got cool powers in the end. Night elves and Tyrande now have access to a more Elune powers. Tyrande didn't lose her night warrior powers, with Elune's help she was finally able to control them, and presumably can now teach them. Night elves can now canonically access the Well of Eternity for arcane power, the Emerald Dream for nature power, and Elune for divine power manifesting as arcane, light or void..

    That's it for now.. if the new seed of the tear of Elune, is the catalyst to a new night elf golden age what literally becomes the original race's mandate of being the best of the dark elves and the forest elf themes from those DnD tropes (which was the original design intention), then it can be said that the Night warrior was a key stage that led to it.

    But as this new stage/phase of the night elves isn't done - we shall have to wait and see - post WC3 night elf story has to reconcile a return from the destroyed pre-sundering civilization, a return from the surrendered isolation in nature of the long vigil, and the restoration of lost faith in Elune from the war of thorns - these 3 parts of the night elf story were broken in 3 powerful stories - the War of the ancients that broke the pre-sundering civilization, WC3 that broke the long vigil and the War of thorns, the broke the faith in the Goddess. It is at the 3rd that Elune through Tyrande starts restoring the power of the night elves so if it ends in restored faith, restored nature and restored civilization, then it isn't useless.

  4. #24
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    It did have purpose, its purpose was a piece of the puzzle of making the expansion about Sylvanas

  5. #25
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Night Warrior Tyrande was the first to journey to the Maw and the Shadowlands proper, taking the fight directly to the Jailer.
    She and the PC liberated the tortured dead of Teldrassil from the Maw and returned them to Ardenweald.
    She did basically nothing in the Maw. Even when we meet up with her, she couldn't even do anything by herself and ended up pawning the duty of saving the Night Elves onto the PC. I genuinely don't think she did a single productive thing when she decided to go rogue.

    She contended with the invading Mawsworn forces in Ardenweald, and tussled with Sylvanas herself.
    How did that turn out? She literally tried to choke a banshee who was piloting a corpse and then began losing her powers. Was it foreshadowing? Yes. Was it also PIS? Most definitely.

    Her plight as the Night Warrior led to an ultimate reconciliation between two god-like beings (the Winter Queen and Elune).
    It wasn't necessary. Elune heard the Winter Queen's request for aid, and chose not to answer. Instead, she decided to allow thousands of her worshippers to die horrible deaths to feed anima to Ardenweald, which is morally equivalent to performing a mass "human" sacrifice.

    Via said god-like beings' intercession the souls of the Kaldorei dead were reconstituted into an artifact with an as-yet-unknown purpose.
    But it was also Elune's fault that the Teldrassil burned. She decided not to intervene in order to inject 50cc's of Kaldorei souls into Ardenweald, and that went horribly. This is the pinnacle of having your cake and eating it too. She can't cause a major problem and then contrive her way back to a solution and expect accolades. Moreover, we didn't even save every soul Elune decided to yeet into the Maw either, as we know souls were regularly being broken down to empower weapons and create Mawsworn armaments.

    There's a marked difference between a story having no purpose, and a story not quite going where someone wanted it to.
    No, this isn't a matter of the story not going where people wanted it to, this is about the story not trying to form a line, but beeline it back to the starting point in an attempt to form a circle. The entire purpose of the Night Warrior storyline went from "I'm now a goth mommy who wants vengeance" to "let's restore the status quo". Genuinely, from a storytelling perspective, what's the point of an adventure if the whole point is to get back to where you started? It's like they introduced the story, didn't know what to do with it, so contrived their way to allow themselves to disregard it and the consequences of the War of Thorns.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  6. #26
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    She did basically nothing in the Maw. Even when we meet up with her, she couldn't even do anything by herself and ended up pawning the duty of saving the Night Elves onto the PC. I genuinely don't think she did a single productive thing when she decided to go rogue.
    She slaughtered scores of the Jailer's minions both across the Maw and Torghast and pretty much blazed an open trail into Torghast that the PC followed to her. I'd say that qualifies as productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    How did that turn out? She literally tried to choke a banshee who was piloting a corpse and then began losing her powers. Was it foreshadowing? Yes. Was it also PIS? Most definitely.
    You're making a different argument - the original argument was that her plot served no purpose, and purpose doesn't require excessive accomplishments. The foreshadowing *is* the purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It wasn't necessary. Elune heard the Winter Queen's request for aid, and chose not to answer. Instead, she decided to allow thousands of her worshippers to die horrible deaths to feed anima to Ardenweald, which is morally equivalent to performing a mass "human" sacrifice.
    No, it wasn't necessary, but it was accomplished nonetheless. Elune also did answer the request for aid, she earmarked the souls of the Teldrassil dead for Ardenweald to feed both it and the Winter Queen in the face of the Drought, unaware of the fact that the machinery of death had been broken and she'd inadvertently delivered the souls to the Maw instead. You can of course quibble about the substance of what was done and how it was done, but it was certainly was done, and that too was a part of the Night Warrior's story arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    But it was also Elune's fault that the Teldrassil burned. She decided not to intervene in order to inject 50cc's of Kaldorei souls into Ardenweald, and that went horribly. This is the pinnacle of having your cake and eating it too. She can't cause a major problem and then contrive her way back to a solution and expect accolades. Moreover, we didn't even save every soul Elune decided to yeet into the Maw either, as we know souls were regularly being broken down to empower weapons and create Mawsworn armaments.
    No, it was Sylvanas' fault that Teldrassil burned - Elune's choice or inability to intercede doesn't redirect blame to her or change her to being the active agent behind what occurred. That would be akin to blaming a faulty fire suppression system for a building burning, and not the arsonist who actually lit the fire. But, again, the argument isn't about the how or the why of what happened with the souls of the dead - it's about the fact that their fate and ultimate trajectory are intimately bound up into the Night Warrior story arc centered around Tyrande. You're contending with an argument that wasn't made in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    No, this isn't a matter of the story not going where people wanted it to, this is about the story not trying to form a line, but beeline it back to the starting point in an attempt to form a circle. The entire purpose of the Night Warrior storyline went from "I'm now a goth mommy who wants vengeance" to "let's restore the status quo". Genuinely, from a storytelling perspective, what's the point of an adventure if the whole point is to get back to where you started? It's like they introduced the story, didn't know what to do with it, so contrived their way to allow themselves to disregard it and the consequences of the War of Thorns.
    Reductive arguments like this tend to belie that the ultimate criticism is "I don't like it," and not that it actually "had no meaning." Whether you like or dislike a story is subjective, and ultimately up to you to decide for yourself, but that doesn't mean the story arc had neither substance nor meaning in terms of the overarching narrative. Restoring the status quo, as you put it, is a valid outcome with a distinct meaning - it may not have been the one you wanted, but it doesn't strip the narrative of its substance, either. Also, your assertion that the Night Warrior arc just restores the status quo isn't valid on its face, at least not yet. There's already a strong implication that this story arc will continue in Dragonflight, so we'll have to actually wait to see what the ultimate conclusion of it will be.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  7. #27
    Well... if you ask me, they were setting up the Night Warrior for playability. An updated version of the Priestess of the Moon.

  8. #28
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I can't remember, what was her excuse for not helping the NEs?
    she didn't know that souls were going to the maw, surprise!
    yes the effect of that arc is too weak that it can be ignored, it was presented as having far more focus, but it reminds me of TLOU2, 'i forgive u' after killing most of her underlings
    which reminds me strangely where is Danasur self-inserted char?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    -snip-
    sorry but honestly i feel u trying to squeeze explain where there isn't
    the story is horrible, he did go full attack but he is right on many points, because blizz didn't even think below their feet, for example check how they presented burning of teldrassil, with MORALLY GREY reason only to find she burned it because a smart ass comment from a dying nelf chick, only to find it was all along planned from start, because she planned to invade stormwind from start, a 'long life dream' that she literally just told herself about pre-BFA, only to discover - again - that it was never her plan (half of those 'plans' are self-talked dialogue, mean she was lying to herself only) but it was to break the 'cycle' of life and death, only to find that this cycle is result of flawed...
    u know what i'm fed, screw it, the story is crap and best is to ignore it like it doesn't exist
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  9. #29
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    sorry but honestly i feel u trying to squeeze explain where there isn't
    the story is horrible, he did go full attack but he is right on many points, because blizz didn't even think below their feet, for example check how they presented burning of teldrassil, with MORALLY GREY reason only to find she burned it because a smart ass comment from a dying nelf chick, only to find it was all along planned from start, because she planned to invade stormwind from start, a 'long life dream' that she literally just told herself about pre-BFA, only to discover - again - that it was never her plan (half of those 'plans' are self-talked dialogue, mean she was lying to herself only) but it was to break the 'cycle' of life and death, only to find that this cycle is result of flawed...
    u know what i'm fed, screw it, the story is crap and best is to ignore it like it doesn't exist
    Again, you're making another argument altogether - I'm not arguing about the quality of the Night Warrior's story for good or will, I'm simply pointing out that saying it had no purpose is simply incorrect. Sure, there are plenty of flaws in the Night Warrior story arc, we could bandy them about all day as concerns inconsistency in characterization, the deeper flaws of the War of Thorns arc, the many dumb decisions (both micro and macro) of the characters within, and so on. But we'd be having an entirely different conversation or debate then. Dumb or not, the Night Warrior's arc advances a noteworthy part of the story as concerns the events at Teldrassil, Tyrande's very characterization, and even has a larger scale cosmic impact when Tyrande's plight as the Night Warrior involves two formerly estranged demi-god sisters to resolve. It's got a huge impact on the greater narrative, whether one personally likes it or not.

    If you want to say "the Night Warrior arc sucked and could've been so much better," I'm not going to argue with you. But if you make your argument "the Night Warrior arc had no purpose and did nothing to advance the story," then I'm going to say you're patently incorrect.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  10. #30
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    She slaughtered scores of the Jailer's minions both across the Maw and Torghast and pretty much blazed an open trail into Torghast that the PC followed to her. I'd say that qualifies as productive.
    It's the very definition of not being productive. Torghast is described as being endless, making killing minions within it wholly unproductive; killing minions isn't productive when there's seemingly an infinite number of them, even if Tyrande killed tens of thousands of them, subtracting however many tens of thousand from an infinite value would still mean there was an infinite number of minions. Even we, the PCs, regularly go into Torghast, kill a few thousand of the Jailer's minions, and then leave, with the sole intent of taking power for ourselves. The only way to be productive in Torghast is to methodically scry into it, such as how we used the shattered Helm of Domination, and then actively go to what we found via scrying. Wandering the corridors blindly doesn't get you anywhere.

    No, it wasn't necessary, but it was accomplished nonetheless. Elune also did answer the request for aid, she earmarked the souls of the Teldrassil dead for Ardenweald to feed both it and the Winter Queen in the face of the Drought, unaware of the fact that the machinery of death had been broken and she'd inadvertently delivered the souls to the Maw instead. You can of course quibble about the substance of what was done and how it was done, but it was certainly was done, and that too was a part of the Night Warrior's story arc.
    That's not an answer, and it's very clearly not. The Winter Queen specifically asked Elune for aid, meaning they have some means to convey their thoughts to each other. Elune opted to not respond (i.e.: not communicate) and instead threw her worshippers into the Shadowlands. Elune responding (i.e.: communicating) to the Winter Queen, instead of yeeting her worshippers, would have avoided so many problems. This just showed that Elune is a special degree of dumb or has a severe lack of foresight (not the magical kind, but the "I understand the consequences of my actions" kind).

    No, it was Sylvanas' fault that Teldrassil burned - Elune's choice or inability to intercede doesn't redirect blame to her or change her to being the active agent behind what occurred. That would be akin to blaming a faulty fire suppression system for a building burning, and not the arsonist who actually lit the fire. But, again, the argument isn't about the how or the why of what happened with the souls of the dead - it's about the fact that their fate and ultimate trajectory are intimately bound up into the Night Warrior story arc centered around Tyrande. You're contending with an argument that wasn't made in this case.
    It was clearly her choice to not intercede, which does make her partially responsible. This isn't "there's an arsonist who is burning down a building and only an automated system available to intervene" this is "there's an arsonist who is burning down a building and a group of firefighters refuse to intervene for nebulous reasons". She is an intelligent being actively made the decision to not intervene because it suited her own purposes, which condemned her people to a horrible death, and subsequently imprisonment within the Maw where many of them would have their souls destroyed while creating Mawsworn armaments and other things the Jailer required. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice, and if the outcome of this choice is an unambiguously evil consequence, you are responsible for that consequence.

    Reductive arguments like this tend to belie that the ultimate criticism is "I don't like it," and not that it actually "had no meaning." Whether you like or dislike a story is subjective, and ultimately up to you to decide for yourself, but that doesn't mean the story arc had neither substance nor meaning in terms of the overarching narrative. Restoring the status quo, as you put it, is a valid outcome with a distinct meaning - it may not have been the one you wanted, but it doesn't strip the narrative of its substance, either. Also, your assertion that the Night Warrior arc just restores the status quo isn't valid on its face, at least not yet. There's already a strong implication that this story arc will continue in Dragonflight, so we'll have to actually wait to see what the ultimate conclusion of it will be.
    No, this is about the story's whole purpose appearing to be an attempt to try and restore the status quo (i.e.: remove consequences from the War of Thorns). That's all the Night Warrior story appears to have been used for within Shadowlands. I understand that there might be more in Dragonflight but, and I'll be very forward, I don't trust Danuser to actually do anything innovative with it given the story of Shadowlands other than to return to the status quo. They've dropped the ball so many times in BfA and Shadowlands, so why should we extend the benefit of the doubt at this point? We can wait and be pleasantly surprised, and I think that's what everyone hopes will happen, but we shouldn't expect them to.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  11. #31
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It's the very definition of not being productive. Torghast is described as being endless, making killing minions within it wholly unproductive; killing minions isn't productive when there's seemingly an infinite number of them, even if Tyrande killed tens of thousands of them, subtracting however many tens of thousand from an infinite value would still mean there was an infinite number of minions. Even we, the PCs, regularly go into Torghast, kill a few thousand of the Jailer's minions, and then leave, with the sole intent of taking power for ourselves. The only way to be productive in Torghast is to methodically scry into it, such as how we used the shattered Helm of Domination, and then actively go to what we found via scrying. Wandering the corridors blindly doesn't get you anywhere.
    Being described as endless doesn't actually mean it is - if that was the literal case, defeating the Jailer wouldn't have mattered in any case because the infinite forces of the Maw would still be an existential threat to the Shadowlands as a whole (which the story is at pains to point out isn't the case). So no, the Jailer's forces are vast but finite, and destroying a huge portion of their numbers is indeed a helpful act (both directly and indirectly). Even if these forces were still literally endless, her various rampages still provided material benefit to the Maw Walkers and other groups active in the Maw by reducing the number of the Jailer's forces active in the field.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    That's not an answer, and it's very clearly not. The Winter Queen specifically asked Elune for aid, meaning they have some means to convey their thoughts to each other. Elune opted to not respond (i.e.: not communicate) and instead threw her worshippers into the Shadowlands. Elune responding (i.e.: communicating) to the Winter Queen, instead of yeeting her worshippers, would have avoided so many problems. This just showed that Elune is a special degree of dumb or has a severe lack of foresight (not the magical kind, but the "I understand the consequences of my actions" kind).
    Again, not liking an answer doesn't relegate it not being an answer. We have no idea how the Winter Queen and Elune communicate, but the implication is that this process isn't direct by any means, or else the Winter Queen could've directly told Elune that her plan wouldn't have worked. Instead, it appears that the Winter Queen more or less "prayed" to her sister for intercession, and in so doing Elune got the general shape of the plight of Ardenweald and formulated a plan to help with it (e.g. sending the Kaldorei souls of Teldrassil to Ardenweald). I think the better supposition here is that the Winter Queen and Elune can't speak directly to one another the same way you or I might call up one another on the phone and that communication between them is far more abstract - and the incident with Tyrande serving as their telephone was a rarity, perhaps one of a kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It was clearly her choice to not intercede, which does make her partially responsible. This isn't "there's an arsonist who is burning down a building and only an automated system available to intervene" this is "there's an arsonist who is burning down a building and a group of firefighters refuse to intervene for nebulous reasons". She is an intelligent being actively made the decision to not intervene because it suited her own purposes, which condemned her people to a horrible death, and subsequently imprisonment within the Maw where many of them would have their souls destroyed while creating Mawsworn armaments and other things the Jailer required. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice, and if the outcome of this choice is an unambiguously evil consequence, you are responsible for that consequence.
    Divine intercession isn't a given in any scenario - Elune isn't tantamount to a "firefighter" on duty, either; and I would say depending on divine intercession as a service is foolhardy at best. People die horrible deaths on Azeroth pretty much on the regular and Elune (or the various other cosmic powers) don't bat an eye. She didn't intervene in the Third War, either; despite even more people suffering from the plague and joining the Scourge as a result, to the point that it threatened the very world itself. Not to mention that preserving the afterlife of countless denizens across many worlds probably trumps saving a single city, especially when viewed from a pragmatic "god's eye" view of everything going on in the metacosm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    No, this is about the story's whole purpose appearing to be an attempt to try and restore the status quo (i.e.: remove consequences from the War of Thorns). That's all the Night Warrior story appears to have been used for within Shadowlands. I understand that there might be more in Dragonflight but, and I'll be very forward, I don't trust Danuser to actually do anything innovative with it given the story of Shadowlands other than to return to the status quo. They've dropped the ball so many times in BfA and Shadowlands, so why should we extend the benefit of the doubt at this point? We can wait and be pleasantly surprised, and I think that's what everyone hopes will happen, but we shouldn't expect them to.
    Again, restoring a status quo is a valid destination for a story - and again, you may dislike that, but it doesn't make it less true. Lots of stories are about the restoration of the status quo. The peaceful village of Fantasyland enjoyed untrammeled peace until Antagonist X attacked with his army of whatever, and it's up to Protagonist Y to defeat X and restore peace to Fantasyland, thus restoring its status quo. I get that you don't like Danuser, and I'm not a huge fan of his either, but we're not talking about the quality of the story, or whether what it accomplishes is worthwhile - it does accomplish something, however, and that's all that's required to demonstrate that the OP's assertion is mistaken.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I was thinking again about the night warrior arc and I feel like I missed something, because if I remember it correctly, it was completely useless and did nothing for the story.

    What happened?
    Darkshore gets attacked, NEs lose
    Tyrande goes Night warrior, attacks Darkshore again and contributes to the victory, however not in any extremely meaningful way. She then faces off against Nathanos, who was NOT infused with Jailer power like Sylvanas was. She should have been able to easily beat him even without the NW power, but even with it, she can not kill him.
    SL happens and she joins the frey, jumps into the maw and starts killing Jailor forces, which we later learn are basically endless.
    She makes it to Torghast and we help her kill the Amalgam of Souls, which again was no impact on anything, except destroying those NE souls so they don't have to suffer anymore. This could also have been done by the maw walker alone, she was just "tagging along"
    We then go on a long quest line to help Tyrande learn how to control the Night Warrior Power and in the end she succeeds.
    She uses her newfound control to attack Sylvanas and in the last moment before she kills her, for yet unknown reasons she loses her Night Warrior Powers for a few moments, allowing Sylvanas to escape.
    We will most likely never know why (remember: Elune only learns about the whole Jailer/Maw situation and Sylvanas much later, there is even a cinematic about it)
    We fight Sylvanas and beat her, without Tyrande, and afterwards get the "you have to chose between vengeance and renewal" part, and she basically gives up the NW powers again.

    Wtf happened here and why did this storyline exist? What did I miss?
    It did not have a purpose, bar the intent to appease the Night Elf fans in giving them a new customisation and updating Tyrande's model. But the truth is that the same is to be said for Shadowlands as a whole. It exists to make the things that Afrasiabi did in BFA go away. Especially in regards to Sylvanas and everything the Horde lost, while lip service is paid to the Night Elves.

    The story served no other purpose then that. The Jailer was asspulled to allow Sylvanas to return to her place in the Horde in the next expansion, after she was done throughly showing us how superior she is to us all, while the Night Warrior and the new Lordaeron campaign exists to make it clear to the Alliance that they only exists as an extras in a story written by Horde fanbois for Horde fanbois.

  13. #33
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, you're making another argument altogether - I'm not arguing about the quality of the Night Warrior's story for good or will, I'm simply pointing out that saying it had no purpose is simply incorrect.
    Ok if u want to be accurate, it had a purpose but it was pure shit
    of course it had purpose, it was just so crap that it made no sense, like wow main story since BFA, with only some good small points like that vampire guy who turned evil (raid boss of first tier), who is criminally underused, heck if he was behind many plots not the jailer it would been far better story as Noble pointed out in his youtube lore videos, since he actually is shown able to manipulate
    Again if u missed my point, you squeezing really hard here, the story is bad, its direction is bad, its purpose is bad, did it have a purpose yes, was it good 100% no, so explain something how shit it was won't make it not shit, this story would been better removed to not harm nelf even more than how wow present them since classic
    nelf are no longer cheerleader support for humans yay... they are total shit ignored race ruled by incompetent leader and even more retard deity.. i'm pretty sure any nelf fan would prefer if they stayed sidelined than shown as a bunch of retards, at least u have hope to be shown badass one day
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    She forced Nathanos, the acting general of Darkshore, to flee and killed one of Sylvanas' val'kyr (Brynja). She also led the taking of Bashal'aran, which served as the base of Kaldorei operations on the warfront. Not to mention slaughtering the majority of Belmont's standing forces in Darkshore. Keeping the Jailer occupied on his home turf by killing tons of his minions definitely helped. After destroying the Amalgam, Tyrande left to continue the hunt for Sylvanas and the PC hovered up the remaining Kaldorei souls into their soulkeeper and returned to them to Ardenweald, as per "Stage 11: Salvation of the Night Elves" of the quest-chain "The Recovery of Tyrande Whisperwind." Defeating Sylvanas isn't a requirement for actions occurring or having an impact, and in slaying a ton of Mawsworn and occupying Sylvanas, she saves many Night Fae lives (existences?) in the process, despite Sylvanas escaping.
    She shouldnt have needed those powers to beat Nathanos. Especcially with Malfurion there. Its nonesense.

    Like the shit she did with these powers were stuff she should have been able to do without them. Stuff OTHERS did without them. Why does she, the high priestess of elune, need these powers to slaughter maw servants when multiple Azeroth NPC's can do it themselves by default.
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  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    She shouldnt have needed those powers to beat Nathanos. Especcially with Malfurion there. Its nonesense.

    Like the shit she did with these powers were stuff she should have been able to do without them. Stuff OTHERS did without them. Why does she, the high priestess of elune, need these powers to slaughter maw servants when multiple Azeroth NPC's can do it themselves by default.
    I don't think she "needed" the powers to beat him, per se; but Tyrande was formerly a Priestess of the Moon at the time, not really offensively minded nor one to lead a charge in a military sense. Adopting the role and power of the Night Warrior was meant to put her on the same standing as Sylvanas, not Nathanos. As for the second argument, you could say the same for any NPC at any power in any situation, really. It was important to Tyrande to be able to contend with what she saw as an existential threat - so she empowered herself to do the job she didn't see anyone else doing, simple as that. "Someone else could've/should've done it," isn't really a valid argument when we're discussing the specifics of story elements as concerns specific characters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    Ok if u want to be accurate, it had a purpose but it was pure shit
    of course it had purpose, it was just so crap that it made no sense, like wow main story since BFA, with only some good small points like that vampire guy who turned evil (raid boss of first tier), who is criminally underused, heck if he was behind many plots not the jailer it would been far better story as Noble pointed out in his youtube lore videos, since he actually is shown able to manipulate
    Again if u missed my point, you squeezing really hard here, the story is bad, its direction is bad, its purpose is bad, did it have a purpose yes, was it good 100% no, so explain something how shit it was won't make it not shit, this story would been better removed to not harm nelf even more than how wow present them since classic
    nelf are no longer cheerleader support for humans yay... they are total shit ignored race ruled by incompetent leader and even more retard deity.. i'm pretty sure any nelf fan would prefer if they stayed sidelined than shown as a bunch of retards, at least u have hope to be shown badass one day
    It's not required for me to "squeeze really hard" to point out that the OP's assertion is wrong, as you've already underlined. Making the story not shit isn't an argument I've made, and it's not one I care to make, given the difficulty of trying to eke out something of worth that was founded on a flawed premise and suffers from constipation of the plot at many key-points. I'm not really a "nelf fan" or anything, so my bias isn't so strongly opposed to the story from the get-go, I suppose, so I can overlook much of its flaws with a mental shrug and focus my attentions elsewhere. I've never liked Tyrande as a character *before* she became the Night Warrior, and I didn't like her *as* the Night Warrior, nor do I think the culmination and conclusion of her story-arc did anything worthwhile as concerns her story, or the Night Elves' story as a whole. The whole affair was a kind of self-contained black box narrative that did its own thing, with only vague connections to the rest of its containing whole.

    Again, that's not saying it did nothing nor advanced any arcs, just that what it did do and what it did advance wasn't a great story, to begin with. But I don't have to like the story to acknowledge it's moving forward.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Well... if you ask me, they were setting up the Night Warrior for playability. An updated version of the Priestess of the Moon.
    I hope that's the case. The future of WoW is mini-races and mini-classes. The full classes will of course remain but having playable characters that are deep-tuned into a particular niche like a HotS hero that does one very specific mechanic really well is going to add so much texture and richness to the game. The Murky world quest in Legion was already a good example:



    The dragonfolkmen already pave the way to get people to accept that a race and a class can be the same thing. Two, or even just one talent tree is fine.

    Once Blizzard establishes a massive and compelling world, it can compound that content by providing the players new eyes to experience it through.

    These classes are meant to be your alt. They gather stuff that becomes useful to your mains, but the main point is that you get to do something different, something that the stock classes and races don't offer to a player.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think she "needed" the powers to beat him, per se; but Tyrande was formerly a Priestess of the Moon at the time, not really offensively minded nor one to lead a charge in a military sense. Adopting the role and power of the Night Warrior was meant to put her on the same standing as Sylvanas, not Nathanos. As for the second argument, you could say the same for any NPC at any power in any situation, really. It was important to Tyrande to be able to contend with what she saw as an existential threat - so she empowered herself to do the job she didn't see anyone else doing, simple as that. "Someone else could've/should've done it," isn't really a valid argument when we're discussing the specifics of story elements as concerns specific characters.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not required for me to "squeeze really hard" to point out that the OP's assertion is wrong, as you've already underlined. Making the story not shit isn't an argument I've made, and it's not one I care to make, given the difficulty of trying to eke out something of worth that was founded on a flawed premise and suffers from constipation of the plot at many key-points. I'm not really a "nelf fan" or anything, so my bias isn't so strongly opposed to the story from the get-go, I suppose, so I can overlook much of its flaws with a mental shrug and focus my attentions elsewhere. I've never liked Tyrande as a character *before* she became the Night Warrior, and I didn't like her *as* the Night Warrior, nor do I think the culmination and conclusion of her story-arc did anything worthwhile as concerns her story, or the Night Elves' story as a whole. The whole affair was a kind of self-contained black box narrative that did its own thing, with only vague connections to the rest of its containing whole.

    Again, that's not saying it did nothing nor advanced any arcs, just that what it did do and what it did advance wasn't a great story, to begin with. But I don't have to like the story to acknowledge it's moving forward.
    The Amazonian High Priestess of the War Goddess who has in the past faced down armies, on her own, and is known for facing down threats regularly, is not offensively minded?

    right.

    The point is that these powers were never established as needed. At no point is it made clear WHY her "old powers" werent enough. Never is it established when she fell behind, frickin everyone.

    Same for Malfurion who is likely the single most powerful mortal in the setting next to Jaina.
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  18. #38
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    The Amazonian High Priestess of the War Goddess who has in the past faced down armies, on her own, and is known for facing down threats regularly, is not offensively minded?

    right.

    The point is that these powers were never established as needed. At no point is it made clear WHY her "old powers" werent enough. Never is it established when she fell behind, frickin everyone.

    Same for Malfurion who is likely the single most powerful mortal in the setting next to Jaina.
    Elune is primarily and in most incarnations an omnibenevolent goddess devoted to peace and tranquility, with the Night Warrior summoning being a strictly forbidden ritual to access a seldom-seen aspect of Elune's being. Tyrande's had many occasions where she has to do battle, sure; but that's not really her role in most stories and she's not really a combat monster, either.

    Tyrande embraced the role of the Night Warrior for emotional and philosophical reasons, not pragmatic ones. She wanted to lay down her more passive/support role and take up one more offensively-minded. And, well, as shown in the events of BfA and Shadowlands, she was kind of bad at it, too (her terrible showing against Sylvanas being a case in point).

    Malfurion's "power level" for want of a better term is probably the most wildly inconsistent in WoW as a whole. Sometimes he has almost god-like levels of power, and sometimes he's taken out of play by the equivalent of a Hunter's trap (e.g. what happens to him in Wolfheart). You can say similar for Jaina, who at times has the power to fly around in an Arcane battleship complete with Arcane cannon-fire, and sometimes she can't even harm a random Blood Elf. Suffice it to say, relying on "power levels" as the foundation for your argument guarantees you're arguing on bad footing, at least when it comes to WoW.
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  19. #39
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    Realistically Tyrande should have walked down to Orgrimmar, beaten down the doors herself, walked into the Throne Room, and chokeslammed Sylvanas 6 feet under the ground.

    Given the story of how powerful the Night Warrior is, no power on Azeroth could have stood against her.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Realistically Tyrande should have walked down to Orgrimmar, beaten down the doors herself, walked into the Throne Room, and chokeslammed Sylvanas 6 feet under the ground.

    Given the story of how powerful the Night Warrior is, no power on Azeroth could have stood against her.
    They could have "fixed" the power level issue if they set some story in Shadowlands that explains exactly how strong NW is and sort of toned it down to the level where she shouldnt have being able to stomp the Horde into the ground.

    Instead they doubled down on making it more and MORE supposedly unstoppable with two Night Warriors we learned about:

    One single handedly beaten down a fully aware and powered Old God. And another conquered whole planet, gone mad with power, became a tyrant, and only died when she killed herself.

    So Night Warrior can defeat an Old God (but die in the process) or take over whole world like "Evil Superman" and only be killed by their own hand. So... Yeah, that makes BfA subsequently ten times worse, yet i bet Blizz thought it would make nelves feel better. Cause it was "so powerful".

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