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  1. #41
    Characters are literally bound by the plot, and their power is only as useful as their purpose in the story. Power ups like this Night Warrior are only purposeful for making Tyrande flashy and cool, which is Blizzard's answer to 'making characters interesting'. Genn Greymane? No one cared about him prior to him becoming Worgen. Magni Bronzebeard? No one cared until he turned Diamond. It's become quite cliche at this point. The only difference is Tyrande's form is written to be temporary, otherwise her power levels could have easily scaled up without

  2. #42
    The night warrior plot served no purpose other than to give night elves a black eye color customization because blood elves got yellow eyes in 8.0 and the alliance got nothing then. After 8.1 they said "Tyrande got her revenge" so they thought that was the end of the night elve plotline. People thought that was idiotic, so blizzard brought back Tyrande for a small, but very pointless, cameo where she does nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Thank God they liberated Darkshore, a war-torn, Cataclysm-torn wasteland with like 1 town in total! Truly a major victory for the Alliance!
    Doesn't even have one town in it anymore and as of exploring kalimdor it's just an abandoned blighted wasteland.
    Last edited by Every Pwny; 2022-06-21 at 01:22 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    The night warrior plot served no purpose other than to give night elves a black eye color customization because blood elves got yellow eyes in 8.0 and the alliance got nothing then. After 8.1 they said "Tyrande got her revenge" so they thought that was the end of the night elve plotline. People thought that was idiotic, so blizzard brought back Tyrande for a small, but very pointless, cameo where she does nothing.



    Doesn't even have one town in it anymore and as of exploring kalimdor it's just an abandoned blighted wasteland.
    What i really appreciate about Blizz is how they always find it in their hearts to step on night elf fans collective throat even when the fanbase is pretty much lying in the pool of blood from two dozen stab wounds.

    Nobody FORCED them to make Darkshore into "loss" through making it uninhabitable wasteland where even animals cant live for long. It has no bearing on the plot, really serves no purpose aside from pouring misery on the race already drowning in misery.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    The night warrior plot served no purpose other than to give night elves a black eye color customization because blood elves got yellow eyes in 8.0 and the alliance got nothing then. After 8.1 they said "Tyrande got her revenge" so they thought that was the end of the night elve plotline. People thought that was idiotic, so blizzard brought back Tyrande for a small, but very pointless, cameo where she does nothing.



    Doesn't even have one town in it anymore and as of exploring kalimdor it's just an abandoned blighted wasteland.
    Wasn't Auberdine rebuilt in-game, in the Alliance version of the scenario (the Canonical one, since the Alliance """""""""won""""""""" the Battle of Darkshore)?

    Regardless, if the Kalimdor novel says it's a blighted wasteland, then Auberdine wasn't rebuilt after all.

  5. #45
    I mean yea, it had no purpose and was abandoned almost instantly. I mean the idea behind it was Decent, and I liked the idea that its a double Edged sword that slowly kills you. And that there was other NW in the universe... What i didnt like was how they "Cured" Tyrannde of itLike what did the other night warriors feel? "Oh we wasnt the fave of Elune so we had to die."

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Wtf happened here and why did this storyline exist? What did I miss?
    You missed the part where she actually did kill Nathanos. It was when he was being supported by the Val'kyr that she couldn't finish him off before he escaped. When he was on his own, she took him out like he was nothing.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    What i really appreciate about Blizz is how they always find it in their hearts to step on night elf fans collective throat even when the fanbase is pretty much lying in the pool of blood from two dozen stab wounds.

    Nobody FORCED them to make Darkshore into "loss" through making it uninhabitable wasteland where even animals cant live for long. It has no bearing on the plot, really serves no purpose aside from pouring misery on the race already drowning in misery.
    Yeah, it was so weird they decided the one night elf "victory" in the last several expansions was just retaking part of their old home that is now a blighted wasteland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Wasn't Auberdine rebuilt in-game, in the Alliance version of the scenario (the Canonical one, since the Alliance """""""""won""""""""" the Battle of Darkshore)?

    Regardless, if the Kalimdor novel says it's a blighted wasteland, then Auberdine wasn't rebuilt after all.
    No, Auburdine was destroyed in Cataclysm and stayed destroyed since then, then they created Lor'danel and that was destroyed by the horde, then there was like some docks that were rebuilt in the revamp, but that is likely for gameplay. In the aftermath, Darkshore is just an uninhabited wasteland in exploring Kalimdor and the night elves were not rebuilding there.
    Last edited by Every Pwny; 2022-06-21 at 09:56 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Night Warrior arc had several purposes, laid out in the stories of BfA and Shadowlands:

    • The empowered Tyrande and Kaldorei returned to Darkshore and ultimately liberated it from the Forsaken.
    • Night Warrior Tyrande was the first to journey to the Maw and the Shadowlands proper, taking the fight directly to the Jailer.
    • She and the PC liberated the tortured dead of Teldrassil from the Maw and returned them to Ardenweald.
    • She contended with the invading Mawsworn forces in Ardenweald, and tussled with Sylvanas herself.
    • Her plight as the Night Warrior led to an ultimate reconciliation between two god-like beings (the Winter Queen and Elune).
    • Via said god-like beings' intercession the souls of the Kaldorei dead were reconstituted into an artifact with an as-yet-unknown purpose.

    There's a marked difference between a story having no purpose, and a story not quite going where someone wanted it to.
    This, and it was the most literal metaphor for a moral story about vengeance. "Those who seek revenge must dig two graves." Tyrande getting her revenge would literally kill her, so forgiveness was the alternative choice.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    This, and it was the most literal metaphor for a moral story about vengeance. "Those who seek revenge must dig two graves." Tyrande getting her revenge would literally kill her, so forgiveness was the alternative choice.
    Tyrande has to dig a lot more than two graves, because the main message is "genocide is very good" as the horde still benefits greatly from what sylvanas did while escaping any kind punishment for it. The forgiveness message is "forgive your victimizers or die" which is a very fitting message coming from Blizzard.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Elune is primarily and in most incarnations an omnibenevolent goddess devoted to peace and tranquility, with the Night Warrior summoning being a strictly forbidden ritual to access a seldom-seen aspect of Elune's being. Tyrande's had many occasions where she has to do battle, sure; but that's not really her role in most stories and she's not really a combat monster, either.

    Tyrande embraced the role of the Night Warrior for emotional and philosophical reasons, not pragmatic ones. She wanted to lay down her more passive/support role and take up one more offensively-minded. And, well, as shown in the events of BfA and Shadowlands, she was kind of bad at it, too (her terrible showing against Sylvanas being a case in point).

    Malfurion's "power level" for want of a better term is probably the most wildly inconsistent in WoW as a whole. Sometimes he has almost god-like levels of power, and sometimes he's taken out of play by the equivalent of a Hunter's trap (e.g. what happens to him in Wolfheart). You can say similar for Jaina, who at times has the power to fly around in an Arcane battleship complete with Arcane cannon-fire, and sometimes she can't even harm a random Blood Elf. Suffice it to say, relying on "power levels" as the foundation for your argument guarantees you're arguing on bad footing, at least when it comes to WoW.
    With respect.

    All of this is wrong.

    Elune is very specifically a combat Goddess. It is, in fact, part of the religion that all Priestess are trained in not only weapons, but martial arts. The Night Warrior has been referenced in the lore before BFA. As far back as information has existed on Elune, the story is "Elune is a peaceful goddess, but not a peace at all costs Goddess". In the earliest days, the Priesthood would lead the battle. This is actively something that was put on display in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, where the Priesthood were as skilled or more skilled than the soldiers, and it was explained "Yeah, we never really had to get all warrior goddess on people lately".

    This is also why the original Warden were hand picked from the Priesthood as well. They were the biggest, baddest, toughest warriors the Night Elves had. IT has changed a bit, but the Sentinel Army was, at one point in Blizzards canon a literal offshoot of the Church of Elune. And as for those biggest, baddest, toughest warriors? Tyrande fought through them solo.

    She is the only lore character, as part of story and not gameplay, to hold off an entire army on her own. Multiple times.

    She is skilled in martial arts and hand to hand combat. It is explicitly stated she can cave an orcs throat in with her punches.
    She can create weapons out of thin air with Elunes power.
    She is skilled enough to fight an Orc Warrior to a stand still while her mind is actively being attacked by the Old Gods and Emerald Nightmare.
    Starfall....
    She can actively make clones of herself out of magic and has held off an army of Shadow Satyr trying to attack Malfurion.

    She is regarded as the Sentinel's greatest warrior and general. She's not just a combat powerhouse. She's the standard for combat powerhouses, which is part of the reason Darkshore (and it was game mechanics, so you do have to give leeway for that. Players need stuff to do) was portrayed so badly.

    The Night Warrior is something Blizzard wanted to paint into the story. It was not originally supposed to be Tyrande. That it did end up being Tyrande missed the point that normal Tyrande is the single most versatile powerhouse the lore has. Normal Tyrande is someone Sylvanas wasn't sure she could beat.

    Put another way... With the Night Warrior powers fading, Tyrande didn't just explode into a cloud of mist, despite the narrative making explicit that the Night Warrior was ripping Tyrande apart and healing her as fast as it did. So when that power went away and she was left with just the damage being done... She still ended up being too much for everyone without direct godly intervention.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Because it makes no sense to invest time, money and effort (from devs and players) in storylines that have no value, if there are so many other stories that need to be told to create an immersive experience. Imagine the time being wasted on the NE storyline instead being put into flashing out the Jailer or telling Sylvanas story in a way that made sense and did kot result in everyone hating her story.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But that's exactly my point.
    NW Tyrande did basically nothing during the liberation of darkshore.
    She did not "take the fight to the jailer", she was randomly killing unimportant underlings from an endless army.
    The NPCs from the Amalgam of souls were not returned to Ardenweald, they were destroyed to emdz their suffering.
    She tussled with the attackers in Ardenweald, but it had no impact. Sylvanas still won and got the key. Tyrandes presence there was meaningless, because her powers left her for unknown reasons just as they would have made a difference.
    Last part is actually true tho, without her the Winter Queen and Elune would not have connected again. Maybe thats fair enough, because despite being disappointing, it actually might have an impact on things to come.

    Any argument based on lore characters not killing important enemies is kinda fucked in a game where killing important enemies is the culmination of gameplay.

    Now can argue she should have been instrumental in weakening the jailer and/or empowering us to save azeroth. For an avatar of vengeance I'd rather she have like wounded the jailer seriously, which would lead to him speeding up his plans and going to the reorigination forge before he was ready. It would give a tidy explanation for his attention lapsing from sylvanas, us freeing anduin, and our ability to defeat him in the end fight, along with giving us an avatar in fight that could help(and a handy tuning option that you could tweak to make the fight easier as prog continues)

    They're def turning in D grade work when WoW has generally lived in that B wheelhouse, I speculate it may be connected with changing story leads and dumping their lines, as well as apocalyptic burnout, where this is basically the 3rd universe endagering expac

  12. #52
    from what we've seen in books and game :
    - well of eternity: Tyrande is young and curious, brave but mostly wishing for peace, not a warmonger
    - wc3 : Tyrane is aggressive and goes to the offensive easily, no curiosity, just leading to protect the elves' right over the forest and their lands
    - wc3ft : tyrande murders her own people to release illidan from captivity...
    - mop: tyrande learns to cool off and be more strategic and calm when leading a war
    - legion : Tyrande is a soft poney that has no strength expect to scream and yell "where are you my love?" in a nightmare infested forest
    - bfa : tyrande goes back to being overly aggressive after seeing most of her people and home get incenerated

    It's never really stated that she is an exceptional leader nor fighter because she's never been one. The only thing that really defined her character is that she is Elune's favourite and wife to Malfurion. But if we forget Legion's failure she is a great character whose power and prowess felt reasonable (I'd have to check again wc3 though because she might pull of some crazy stunts there but as expected from this type of rts scenari)

  13. #53
    Any arc that has anything to do with the faction war has no purpose since they always end up holding hands in the end anyway.

  14. #54
    If Tyrande was a Horde character, she would have used Moon powers BS to nuke an entire city.

    Her being an Alliance character doomed her potential and chances of proving herself.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    If Tyrande was a Horde character, she would have used Moon powers BS to nuke an entire city.

    Her being an Alliance character doomed her potential and chances of proving herself.
    Just like Alleria, huh?
    MS. MARVEL will return in The Marvels ✨

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldofSargeras View Post
    Just like Alleria, huh?
    Alleria was able to completely take over Stormwind and turn it into a Void wasteland, BUT in an alternate reality where she joined the Old Gods' Forces.

    Meanwhile, in the main reality, we have Horde leaders Garrosh and Sylvanas literally nuking entire cities. We have Horde princess Talanji literally obliterating an entire fleet.

    So thank you for the example, not only because it's about Alleria, but also because it clearly demonstrates a certain bias from the writers towards a certain faction.

  17. #57
    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    from what we've seen in books and game :
    - well of eternity: Tyrande is young and curious, brave but mostly wishing for peace, not a warmonger
    Yes, though she does do several charges with the other Priestess of Elune. The Priesthood does prefer peace. They are also militant.

    - wc3 : Tyrane is aggressive and goes to the offensive easily, no curiosity, just leading to protect the elves' right over the forest and their lands
    Context is key. She went on the offensive. After the Orcs invaded their land and killed Cenarius. The humans were working with the Orcs. As for the Orc campaign, it's actually a bit of a oddity, as if you wait long enough the Night Elves do attack. But there is a trigger. If you attack the Wisp, it triggers the same event.

    She then reformed the largely scattered Sentinel army while sneaking through demon infested forest in the middle of a full scale Burning Legion invasion.

    - wc3ft : tyrande murders her own people to release illidan from captivity...
    Was in WC3. That being said, she is the undisputed leader of the Night Elves at this time. Everyone works for her. They attacked her first.

    - mop: tyrande learns to cool off and be more strategic and calm when leading a war
    One of the single most stupid moments in the game. The Horde gives up hostages and a fortified position to run out. for no reason. This is not strategy. This is stupidity.

    - legion : Tyrande is a soft poney that has no strength expect to scream and yell "where are you my love?" in a nightmare infested forest
    I mean, she led a fight against one of the most powerful dragons on Azeroth? In context, it makes perfect sense she would chase after the guy who's got her husband? This is such a stupid complaint that ignores what is actually happening in favor of complaining about the, admittedly poor, voice direction.

    - bfa : tyrande goes back to being overly aggressive after seeing most of her people and home get incenerated
    I mean, if anything she's been fairly reasonable. I can't say she's been overly aggressive considering the Horde has actively been killing her people since Vanilla.

    It's never really stated that she is an exceptional leader nor fighter because she's never been one. The only thing that really defined her character is that she is Elune's favourite and wife to Malfurion. But if we forget Legion's failure she is a great character whose power and prowess felt reasonable (I'd have to check again wc3 though because she might pull of some crazy stunts there but as expected from this type of rts scenari)
    She rebuilt the entire Night Elven nation. It was in tatters after WotA. There was not enough infrastructure left for schools, or military, or farming, or anything. The entire civilization, it's power structures, etc were built under her, using the Church of Elune as it was the only thing strong enough to stand.

    The Night Elves adore her to the point they automatically bow, and it's something she is uncomfortable with.

    The Night Elves as a whole, Tyrande included, have this thing with the playerbase where the players decide to just remove context from everything surrounding the situation.

    EDIT:

    Just to be clear, since I complained about Context. What I said is also literally the context of A Little Patience. It was literally Orcs held hostages in a fortified temple, and Varian convinced them to abandon all of that by saying there wasn't an army or traps, that he was just there. Despite the Orcs being chased into the temple by an army. That is not game mechanics. That is literally the story that happened. Even outside of Game mechanics, it's story requires every character involved to be reduced to stupidity. The Orcs were stupid to the point they forgot an entire army chased them in the temple, they gave up high ground, fortified positions and hostages.

    *The blessed Temple of the Red Crane is the ancestral home of Chi-Ji, the celestial embodiment of hope. From within the temple's ornate halls, the Red Crane wings out to oppose the despair that spread through the murky Krasarang Wilds like a cancer. But, with the recent arrival of Horde occupation forces, the sacred site has become a fortification, and the Crane's servants hostages.

    Leaders of the Alliance, foremost among them Varian Wrynn, are divided on how to deal with the problem. To remove the Horde from the temple without needlessly sacrificing Alliance lives, you’ll need to lure them out and take them down with carefully placed traps*
    Last edited by Ferlion; 2022-06-21 at 11:32 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    Was in WC3. That being said, she is the undisputed leader of the Night Elves at this time. Everyone works for her. They attacked her first.
    oops for the mistake on the game ^^'
    They attacked her because being a leader does not necessarily mean that you can free whomever you want

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    I mean, she led a fight against one of the most powerful dragons on Azeroth? In context, it makes perfect sense she would chase after the guy who's got her husband? This is such a stupid complaint that ignores what is actually happening in favor of complaining about the, admittedly poor, voice direction.
    The voice acting definitely threw me. But why not rally more people to save Malfurion? He's not just her husband, he's the leader of the druid circle, he's one of the mightiest keeper of this world. But this situation is not ridiculous just because of Tyrande but also because Malfurion being on death brink still manages to taunt and ridicule its captor...

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Tyrande has to dig a lot more than two graves, because the main message is "genocide is very good" as the horde still benefits greatly from what sylvanas did while escaping any kind punishment for it. The forgiveness message is "forgive your victimizers or die" which is a very fitting message coming from Blizzard.
    Yep. And this is the shit message. Horde pushed ALL their responsibility on Sylvanas, effectively entirely shifting the blame. And then Sylvanas gets civil service sentence for a genocide and literally sending souls to hell. You know, if genocide was not enough, war crimes were not enough, literal death camps and exterminating population on purpose was not enough... Even souls cant find respite as they are plunged from physical torture into afterlife torture. Its like dying in fucken Treblinka and going to Hell on express. Way to make things fucked up to eleven.

    And then we supposed to "choose renewal"... Horde fans were so loud about Calia Blizz actually changed the plot to accommodate the players, because they realized that she was ruining the "racial fantasy" too much in her first iteration.

    Then how they fuck they allow THIS travesty to go on?

  20. #60
    They attacked her because being a leader does not necessarily mean that you can free whomever you want
    The Watchers, which is the organization that the Warden belong to answer "directly" to Tyrande Whisperwind (and since Stormrage, Malfurion as well, as he didn't officially become a co-leader until Tyrande forced the issue). She is (was at the time) literally the ultimate authority they answer to. They were formed with them answering to nobody but Tyrande. They were tasked to obey her as the leader. Their authority did not supercede hers. They were in the wrong, they committed treason, and Tyrande dealt with the situation.

    http://web.archive.org/web/201311140...21711655067648


    The voice acting definitely threw me. But why not rally more people to save Malfurion? He's not just her husband, he's the leader of the druid circle, he's one of the mightiest keeper of this world. But this situation is not ridiculous just because of Tyrande but also because Malfurion being on death brink still manages to taunt and ridicule its captor...
    I mean.. Rally who? It was deep in Nightmare corrupted land, infested by harpies, with everyone else already driven out, a corrupt Dragon roaming around (Not even Ysera, but the actual world boss Dragon), and she already had herself and someone who is wielding an artifact weapon that puts them on par with literal demi-gods. Like, as in lorewise not just gameplay. Plus, gamescale. How far away was she from other people? Who would the have to travel back.

    Blizzard does not tell it's story well. Things are pretty easy to overlook, and they don't do a good job at stressing just how over the top we were in Legion.
    Last edited by Ferlion; 2022-06-21 at 11:51 PM.

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