The night warrior arc had no purpose, right?

[Accendor]

Apparently Elune wasn't able to let Tyrande go as its champion. It felt that Tyrande had to face a rational choice rather thab letting her rage drive her. Maybe Elune felt there was something wrong with the sacrifice they pushed on the people of Darnasus, maybe not but Tyrande has been Elune's favourite for quite some time therefore she might benefit from special safeguard

See, thats exactly the point. I can also come up with random reasons WHY, but neither you nor I have any idea wtf is actually going on.
If you look at this from a dramaturgical point of view, the whole point of the rendered cinematic was not that Tyrande and Sylvanas were fighting and that Sylvanas escaped. The important part was HOW Sylvanas escaped and that the NW powers failed.
Why that happened is the most important aspect of the whole cinematic and partly also of the following main questline. Leaving it unanswered is really a problem and no matter with what ideas we come up: Its fanfiction and nobody cares about fanfiction.

[Aucald]

There was a long chain of broken quotes and re-quotes, this should now hopefully be fixed.

[Skildar]

See, thats exactly the point. I can also come up with random reasons WHY, but neither you nor I have any idea wtf is actually going on.
If you look at this from a dramaturgical point of view, the whole point of the rendered cinematic was not that Tyrande and Sylvanas were fighting and that Sylvanas escaped. The important part was HOW Sylvanas escaped and that the NW powers failed.
Why that happened is the most important aspect of the whole cinematic and partly also of the following main questline. Leaving it unanswered is really a problem and no matter with what ideas we come up: Its fanfiction and nobody cares about fanfiction.

What I've described to you is just an educated guess but I'm convinced that you put too much emphasis on the why the nightwarrior powers left Tyrande. There are things out of our reach of understanding in this universe on purpose.

Why was Gollum kept alive for so long? He had a role to play so the story let him be. Sylvanas follows this pattern. Let it be Elune stopping Tyrande for her sake or for Sylvanas', or even an other force at play, it doesn't matter.

[Accendor]

What I've described to you is just an educated guess but I'm convinced that you put too much emphasis on the why the nightwarrior powers left Tyrande. There are things out of our reach of understanding in this universe on purpose.

Why was Gollum kept alive for so long? He had a role to play so the story let him be. Sylvanas follows this pattern. Let it be Elune stopping Tyrande for her sake or for Sylvanas', or even an other force at play, it doesn't matter.

Ok, lets try this again:
The whole Night warrior arc, the whole reason why Tyrande took all the risks involved and did what she did, was to acquire the strength needed to kill Sylvanas (because the writers idea was to blame everything on Sylvanas and let the rest of the horde go unpunished). Yes, I understand that OTHER things happened during this journey as well (e.g. the reconciliation of Elune and the Winter Queen), but they where not the reason, everything started.
When the finale of a journey can not be reached or gets fundamentally shifted, it does matter a lot WHY.
If not, next time we see Gallywix onehit Tyralion because he was on his way to fire that damn canon at Stormwind and that absolutely needed to happen, so we don't question how and why that happened.

[Skildar]

Ok, lets try this again:
The whole Night warrior arc, the whole reason why Tyrande took all the risks involved and did what she did, was to acquire the strength needed to kill Sylvanas (because the writers idea was to blame everything on Sylvanas and let the rest of the horde go unpunished). Yes, I understand that OTHER things happened during this journey as well (e.g. the reconciliation of Elune and the Winter Queen), but they where not the reason, everything started.
When the finale of a journey can not be reached or gets fundamentally shifted, it does matter a lot WHY.
If not, next time we see Gallywix onehit Tyralion because he was on his way to fire that damn canon at Stormwind and that absolutely needed to happen, so we don't question how and why that happened.

I'm quite convinced she performed the ritual to cleanse Darkshore of the presence of the horde as no one in the alliance followed the night elves except for the gileans.

She's been adamant in the epilogue of BfA and in the novel Shadow rising that the Horde is at fault and that peace was not an option for the night elves.

I've understood her tracking of Sylvanas as a personal revenge and at the same time a way to start getting some justice, not every responsibilities are put on the banshee.

[Ersula]

Tyrande has to dig a lot more than two graves, because the main message is "genocide is very good" as the horde still benefits greatly from what sylvanas did while escaping any kind punishment for it. The forgiveness message is "forgive your victimizers or die" which is a very fitting message coming from Blizzard.

"The only acceptable punishment is death" is an incredibly childish moral & they avoided that by giving Sylvanas a promethean task as punishment.

She kills Nathanos? Not good enough for Tyrande Stans. She gets some depth & actually struggles with forgiveness? A trait she should be exercising as a Priestess? Not good enough. She actually evokes Elune giving the first on-screen representation of the Goddess? Not good enough. You wonder why Alliance players are never happy with the characterization they get?

[Feanoro]

What part of "the Horde repeatedly gets away with genocide by blaming one person for an army's actions" is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of Alliance players wanting to actually SEE these supposed victories is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of "the Horde should be paying reparations and working to rebuild what they destroyed since they lost" is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of "a story stuck in an eternal status quo that ignores logical consequences of actions is an unsatisfying story" is hard for Horde fans to understand?



Hmmm, that sounds like thinking. Easier to play dumb and say that Alliance are just complainers.

[cparle87]

-.-
that's like saying 1+1=5 is math, u know it is wrong, a 5 year old know it is wrong, but u still count it as math because it has numbers and symbols
no that's not how it works, if a story is complete failure and total shit then it did indeed have no purpose

Comparison objective things like math to something subjective like claiming a story you don't like is no story. Stay classy mmo-champs.

[sam86]

What part of "the Horde repeatedly gets away with genocide by blaming one person for an army's actions" is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of Alliance players wanting to actually SEE these supposed victories is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of "the Horde should be paying reparations and working to rebuild what they destroyed since they lost" is hard for Horde fans to understand?

What part of "a story stuck in an eternal status quo that ignores logical consequences of actions is an unsatisfying story" is hard for Horde fans to understand?



Hmmm, that sounds like thinking. Easier to play dumb and say that Alliance are just complainers.

they are literally after the part of alliance actually paying for the only successful genocide on Azeroth against trolls
u do know that alliance war crimes dwarf all horde did right?
So i know how hard it is for alliance for double standards, but until alliance repay what they did, and if u insist on blaming a race for 1 person decision then u can add summon BL and the sundering of entire world to alliance crimes since Azshara - who is purely evil and nelf denounced her - did that, u can't let nelf get away with that even if she was dictator who kept her position by force and didn't ask for permission from her subjects right?
and why i feel we going way off topic for this thread

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as the horde still benefits greatly from what sylvanas did.

what benefit? why u think destroying nelf is good for horde (or anyone with conscious), heck even with no conscious what did they gain from it? horde lost Lordaeron, more forsaken (who unlike every other race in wow, don't reproduce and don't replenish anymore, so literally anyone dies is a permanent -1 to the population), their armies shattered and destroyed, heck official lore after BFA horde have no power at all, just some scattered small forces
what did horde gain from Sylvannas action except suffering again under a maniac rule? at least Garrosh had a motive, Sylvannas motive depend on which patch was out

[Feanoro]

they are literally after the part of alliance actually paying for the only successful genocide on Azeroth against trolls

This was debunked. I see you ignored it.

u do know that alliance war crimes dwarf all horde did right?

This has to be a joke, and so I'll respond with one.

So i know how hard it is for alliance for double standards, but until alliance repay what they did, and if u insist on blaming a race for 1 person decision then u can add summon BL and the sundering of entire world to alliance crimes since Azshara - who is purely evil and nelf denounced her - did that, u can't let nelf get away with that even if she was dictator who kept her position by force and didn't ask for permission from her subjects right?

And I know how hard it is for Horde to understand the slim amount of nuance that's in the story, but I'll try.

Here's the difference, since you don't seem to get it. The Night Elves we have today are the ones who rose up against Azshara and fought her. Not only did they have no say in what she did, they had no involvement in bringing the Legion. In fact, Azshara was delighted that the Legion was slaughtering the "unworthy".

The Highborne were the ones carrying out Azshara's plan. They bear responsibility for summoning the Legion. Some Highborne turned against her and tried to stop the Legion. Others were loyal and became Naga with her. The Naga are the ones to be punished for the Sundering.

Only a very few of the Horde actually went against Garrosh or Sylvanas. The majority of the Horde canonically enthusiastically supported both dictators. The loyalists are still responsible for their actions and should make reparations, just like the Naga. The Naga are still treated as enemies to be killed on sight unless/until they make amends. The loyalist Horde should logically receive the same treatment until they make amends. Instead, the writers lazily ignore the loyalists so they don't have to write something complicated.

[Accendor]

This was debunked. I see you ignored it.

This has to be a joke, and so I'll respond with one.

And I know how hard it is for Horde to understand the slim amount of nuance that's in the story, but I'll try.

Here's the difference, since you don't seem to get it. The Night Elves we have today are the ones who rose up against Azshara and fought her. Not only did they have no say in what she did, they had no involvement in bringing the Legion. In fact, Azshara was delighted that the Legion was slaughtering the "unworthy".

The Highborne were the ones carrying out Azshara's plan. They bear responsibility for summoning the Legion. Some Highborne turned against her and tried to stop the Legion. Others were loyal and became Naga with her. The Naga are the ones to be punished for the Sundering.

Only a very few of the Horde actually went against Garrosh or Sylvanas. The majority of the Horde canonically enthusiastically supported both dictators. The loyalists are still responsible for their actions and should make reparations, just like the Naga. The Naga are still treated as enemies to be killed on sight unless/until they make amends. The loyalist Horde should logically receive the same treatment until they make amends. Instead, the writers lazily ignore the loyalists so they don't have to write something complicated.

Actually I need to intervene here. Canonically WAY more people stood up against Garrosh than against Sylvanas. Canonically it was nearly the whole Horde. Not all of them for the right reasons, but it was vastly different to BfA, where the vast majority really stold behind Sylvanas till the very end.

[Every Pwny]

what benefit? why u think destroying nelf is good for horde (or anyone with conscious), heck even with no conscious what did they gain from it? horde lost Lordaeron, more forsaken (who unlike every other race in wow, don't reproduce and don't replenish anymore, so literally anyone dies is a permanent -1 to the population), their armies shattered and destroyed, heck official lore after BFA horde have no power at all, just some scattered small forces
what did horde gain from Sylvannas action except suffering again under a maniac rule? at least Garrosh had a motive, Sylvannas motive depend on which patch was out

Horde has Lordeoron as of 8.3 and they are rebuilding this patch, they pushed further into Ashenvale and are holding more than they had before WoT. The night elves are basically defunked as a people and are no longer a threat to the horde in Kalimdor. The horde pretty much only benefitted from the genocide. And please let's not pretend the horde has a concious about genocide, they continued to fight for Sylvanas after, they only turned on her when she started torturing Baine (much like the horde supported Garrosh before he tried to assassinated Vol'jin and put the echo isles under martial law) and then the rest of them only turned on her at the gates of Org when she said "the horde is nothing", the horde didn't turn on Sylvanas for genocide, they turned on her because she said they are stupid.

The horde has only benefitted from the genocide and continues to benefit from it long after, they suffered literally nothing other than blowing up their own city, even Stomwind was out of soldiers and needed the horde's help to fight part of the horde.

"The only acceptable punishment is death" is an incredibly childish moral & they avoided that by giving Sylvanas a promethean task as punishment.

She kills Nathanos? Not good enough for Tyrande Stans. She gets some depth & actually struggles with forgiveness? A trait she should be exercising as a Priestess? Not good enough. She actually evokes Elune giving the first on-screen representation of the Goddess? Not good enough. You wonder why Alliance players are never happy with the characterization they get?

Sorry, making excuses for a genocidal monster ever because you find her attractive is childish and morally bankrupt on every level. Nathanos didn't orchestrated Teldrassil, killing him is nothing, Sylvanas didn't do this alone and the horde still reaps the benefits of the genocide they committed. Tyrande actually gets no depth, she just is used as a telephone by Elune and then wakes up and changes her mind, we don't get a scene, like we do with female wow hitler with Uther, where they have her talking through what she did, Tyrande just changes her mind because the writers didn't want to bother with a story for her and Sylvanas is a very marketable character so they don't want to kill her off.

[Feanoro]

Actually I need to intervene here. Canonically WAY more people stood up against Garrosh than against Sylvanas. Canonically it was nearly the whole Horde. Not all of them for the right reasons, but it was vastly different to BfA, where the vast majority really stold behind Sylvanas till the very end.

When was this stated? It certainly wasn't the case at the time of SoO, as it was made very clear Vol'jin's small rebel band didn't stand a chance without the Alliance. No problem saying I may have missed something afterwards.

[VladlTutushkin]

"The only acceptable punishment is death" is an incredibly childish moral & they avoided that by giving Sylvanas a promethean task as punishment.

She kills Nathanos? Not good enough for Tyrande Stans. She gets some depth & actually struggles with forgiveness? A trait she should be exercising as a Priestess? Not good enough. She actually evokes Elune giving the first on-screen representation of the Goddess? Not good enough. You wonder why Alliance players are never happy with the characterization they get?

If you think killing Nathanos and giving Sylvanas some civil service time (two expansions or less) is appropriate punishment for a genocide and sending souls to the Maw…

Well then i wish for Horde to experience same pain and then to be allowed similar “justice”.

Also Eune never was about forgiveness. Only time we saw her make a “forgiveness miracle” was when she cleansed a satyr of Fel back into night elf form. In most cases she was not a very forgiving Goddess.

Also there is no need to struggle with forgiveness. Sylvanas straight up does not deserve one. She is a cold hearted monster who was getting aroused by watching people die in agony (and its LITERALLY IN A BOOK) so i dont fucken know what else she should do for people to realise that she is beyond forgiveness at this point. She is morally abhorrent and bankrupt.

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When was this stated? It certainly wasn't the case at the time of SoO, as it was made very clear Vol'jin's small rebel band didn't stand a chance without the Alliance. No problem saying I may have missed something afterwards.

They said it much later in a twit that actually most Horde stood against Garrosh despite gameplay and quest text saying otherwise.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

they are literally after the part of alliance actually paying for the only successful genocide on Azeroth against trolls
u do know that alliance war crimes dwarf all horde did right?
So i know how hard it is for alliance for double standards, but until alliance repay what they did, and if u insist on blaming a race for 1 person decision then u can add summon BL and the sundering of entire world to alliance crimes since Azshara - who is purely evil and nelf denounced her - did that, u can't let nelf get away with that even if she was dictator who kept her position by force and didn't ask for permission from her subjects right?
and why i feel we going way off topic for this thread

It’s actually kinda funny when people blame things like the troll Genocides or Azshara on the alliance when they horde is actually more culpable for both of them then the alliance is.

The war on the trolls was started and headed by the high elfs, the bulk of the high elfs are now blood elfs and are part of the horde.

While the night elfs stood against Azshara the night bourn actually joined her only stabbing her and the legion in the back when they were put in danger by the second portal.

Your examples don’t make the alliance dwarf the horde in warcrimes they just add even more war crimes onto both factions but with even more blame on the horde members.

[8bithamster]

"The only acceptable punishment is death" is an incredibly childish moral & they avoided that by giving Sylvanas a promethean task as punishment.

She kills Nathanos? Not good enough for Tyrande Stans. She gets some depth & actually struggles with forgiveness? A trait she should be exercising as a Priestess? Not good enough. She actually evokes Elune giving the first on-screen representation of the Goddess? Not good enough. You wonder why Alliance players are never happy with the characterization they get?

Exactly this. People just want a two dimensional plot line "because alliance never ever ever had any lore and the horde gets all the lore!"

Ideas, plans, viewpoints change when you fight through literal afterlive. Expecting tyrande to stay exactly the same throughout is just copium levels of fanboy.

[bloodmoth13]

Now for her coming back and comparison to Illidan… Illidan was featured in exactly TWO expansions. He was TBC end boss and Legion quest giver character and big “setpiece” type of figure.

He was not fucking around Azeroth before TBC and after he was dead until Legion.

Now imagine if he was constantly present on the planet in an impossibly obnoxious role , constantly being a pain in the ass for one faction and a war crime perpetrator for another. Because thats what Sylvanas was. Her coming back in ANY way would be entirely disgusting.

Because Horde shifted ALL the blame on HER ALONE. Do you UNDERSTAND that this whole “armstice” only hinged on “it was all her, not us, nothing us” clause? And you suggest getting her back? She would be killed instantly, tbh, who would even let her back?

Its a shit fit and only serves Danuser’s self interest of bringing her back eventually because he cant stop simping for a nanosecond.

What does that have to do with anything i said? what, because she was poorly written for 4 expansions she deserves to die? refer to my previous comment about how thats completely missing the point. Her story was garbage, her beginning was awesome (warcraft3-WotLK), her middle was dreadful (Cata - shadowlands) but her ending was correct. it was the right ending.

Im not defending the cata-shadowlands story, its objectively garbage and everything surrounding it was dishonest. There was no natural progression and her personality was inconsistent. Going from "FOR THE HORDE!" to "the horde means NOTHING!" in half an expansion was stupid. Blizz holding their cards too close caused a lot of this and it really feels like there were too many writers involved in her arc.

With all that said the end to her story was correct. There really wasnt a better ending than what she had with the story that preceeded. The ending may suck because of the previous story and it not being where you want it but its the best ending that story could have had.

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Her punishment is not even close to eternal. On the contrary, freeing the remaining NE souls is a task she could effectively have solved by the start of DF so that she can accompany us to the first raid.


Also once again for you, her punishment is the opposite of eternal..

Thats really splitting hairs, she has to save all the remaining souls and she doesnt just get freed immediately afterwards. She wont be back for DF and if she is feel free to reply and rub my nose in this. Her story is effectively complete, there is no more story to tell for her till there IS story to tell and that will be because the realm of death is important again not because she is.

She is effectively written out of the story for now and for the forseeable future. If or when she comes back you can argue about it being too soon but quit bitching like shes on the DF poster its ridiculous. Saving the souls is a punishment that could take forever or your right it could be done before next expansion, thats up to blizzard but i think they are aware of sylvanas fatigue and will bench their most controversial character for a good amount of time.

Regardless its still the correct end to her story.

[VladlTutushkin]

Exactly this. People just want a two dimensional plot line "because alliance never ever ever had any lore and the horde gets all the lore!"

Ideas, plans, viewpoints change when you fight through literal afterlive. Expecting tyrande to stay exactly the same throughout is just copium levels of fanboy.

And what caused them to change? She never had a "spiritual journey" with Sylvanas like Uther. She never saw her doing anything but evil. And frankly, why should she care about being kind to her or forgiving when her whole race was doomed to extinction by Sylvanas? You know, birth rates slower then any other race in Alliance or Horde and they just lost most of their civilians.

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What does that have to do with anything i said? what, because she was poorly written for 4 expansions she deserves to die? refer to my previous comment about how thats completely missing the point. Her story was garbage, her beginning was awesome (warcraft3-WotLK), her middle was dreadful (Cata - shadowlands) but her ending was correct. it was the right ending.

Im not defending the cata-shadowlands story, its objectively garbage and everything surrounding it was dishonest. There was no natural progression and her personality was inconsistent. Going from "FOR THE HORDE!" to "the horde means NOTHING!" in half an expansion was stupid. Blizz holding their cards too close caused a lot of this and it really feels like there were too many writers involved in her arc.

With all that said the end to her story was correct. There really wasnt a better ending than what she had with the story that preceeded. The ending may suck because of the previous story and it not being where you want it but its the best ending that story could have had.

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Thats really splitting hairs, she has to save all the remaining souls and she doesnt just get freed immediately afterwards. She wont be back for DF and if she is feel free to reply and rub my nose in this. Her story is effectively complete, there is no more story to tell for her till there IS story to tell and that will be because the realm of death is important again not because she is.

She is effectively written out of the story for now and for the forseeable future. If or when she comes back you can argue about it being too soon but quit bitching like shes on the DF poster its ridiculous. Saving the souls is a punishment that could take forever or your right it could be done before next expansion, thats up to blizzard but i think they are aware of sylvanas fatigue and will bench their most controversial character for a good amount of time.

Regardless its still the correct end to her story.

You talking as if she is the "main character" of the story. Meanwhile her actions ruined or jeopardized at least ten other characters. Not even speaking about races she humiliated into nothingness and destroyed their racial fantasy and feel.

Forsaken fans are raging about Calia, but Sylvanas did more damage then Calia ever could hope to the story.

Also yes, people make mistakes, but not all mistakes can be fixed with shoving the dirt under the carpet and waiting for a few years. Some mistakes take bravery to fix by throwing the garbage out and starting a new, better story that can be done from the similar root to the bad one, but with better writing and ideas instead of trying to constantly reanimate a corpse, so to say. If people will keep begging Blizz to keep old characters we will never move on from Jaina and Thrall and there are only so many times you can bring character out until they become stale and bad.

And thats why Illidan was so well received! He came exactly on time, did not overstayed his welcome and was gone until his next cue, where he again stayed in the spotlight exactly the right time and was gone with a blast. Instead of dragging his husk through several expansions and making him entirely hated by the fans.

[Varodoc]

For the record, reminder that Tauren Leader Baine Bloodhoof stated that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target and did not hold any grudge towards the Alliance. He even (rightfully!) exiled from the Tauren lands those crazy lunatics who wanted revenge for Camp Taurajo. Revenge for nothing. It was a legitimate military target and thus, as per Baine's own admission, the Alliance literally did nothing wrong.

It's the Tauren supremacists who wanted "revenge" for some "phantom crime" who did plenty of wrong, hence why Chieftain Bloodhoof wisely exiled them. The Tauren government proves that they do not tolerate those blinded by pointless hatred.

So please update the meme @Feanoro, I know it's hard to find any crime committed by the Alliance, truly I do. Some could even go as far as to say that it is impossible. But Camp Taurajo was never a war crime. Canonically, the Horde have no right and are not entitled to complain about Camp Taurajo.

[VladlTutushkin]

For the record, reminder that Tauren Leader Baine Bloodhoof stated that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target and did not hold any grudge towards the Alliance. He even (rightfully!) exiled from the Tauren lands those crazy lunatics who wanted revenge for Camp Taurajo. Revenge for nothing. It was a legitimate military target and thus, as per Baine's own admission, the Alliance literally did nothing wrong.

It's the Tauren supremacists who wanted "revenge" for some "phantom crime" who did plenty of wrong, hence why Chieftain Bloodhoof wisely exiled them. The Tauren government proves that they do not tolerate those blinded by pointless hatred.

So please update the meme @Feanoro, I know it's hard to find any crime committed by the Alliance, truly I do. Some could even go as far as to say that it is impossible. But Camp Taurajo was never a war crime. Canonically, the Horde have no right and are not entitled to complain about Camp Taurajo.

Hey, even he was better then Elune since he exiled those tauren AFTER they exacted their revenge on Alliance and killed the general of the army that attacked Taurajo, even though the guy himself was the least responsible for civilian deaths - he specifically allowed them to escape.