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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Not really, by then Garrosh already used his "Geheimpolizei" and killed everyone who had a different opinion.
    Might as well blame the elves (all of them) for Azshara, because they weren't in open rebellion against her.
    I mean, you act as if the elves were 2 kind of races in the first place. All of the elves were the nightelves. Highborne are nightelves.
    It's just a different caste.

    The bloodelves are exiled nightelves.

    The player-horde was against Garrosh, just as much as the nightelves in the Alliance are the rebels that fought the Nightelf-Garrosh version called Azshara.
    Nice historical revisionism.

    The Horde player is 100% complicit in most of the atrocities Garrosh committed in MoP. They literally aided Garrosh in destroying Theramore, laying waste to the jungles of Pandaria, and finding the Divine Bell. The Horde Rebellion officially started in 5.3.

    Your Horde player character is a mass murderer complicit in the destruction of Theramore. But since the Horde PC has obvious plot armour, he/she wasn't put on trial with Garrosh.

  2. #162
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nice historical revisionism.

    The Horde player is 100% complicit in most of the atrocities Garrosh committed in MoP. They literally aided Garrosh in destroying Theramore, laying waste to the jungles of Pandaria, and finding the Divine Bell. The Horde Rebellion officially started in 5.3.

    Your Horde player character is a mass murderer complicit in the destruction of Theramore. But since the Horde PC has obvious plot armour, he/she wasn't put on trial with Garrosh.
    You say that stuff like it's bad man. I would have preferred to just take and hold Theramore, turning it into a sinkhole is nice too i guess.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    You say that stuff like it's bad man. I would have preferred to just take and hold Theramore, turning it into a sinkhole is nice too i guess.
    And then you cry and beg to remove Calia and etc from the Horde. You cant be touched in game, sure, but that does not mean you will not be utterly ruined by it.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nice historical revisionism.

    The Horde player is 100% complicit in most of the atrocities Garrosh committed in MoP. They literally aided Garrosh in destroying Theramore, laying waste to the jungles of Pandaria, and finding the Divine Bell. The Horde Rebellion officially started in 5.3.

    Your Horde player character is a mass murderer complicit in the destruction of Theramore. But since the Horde PC has obvious plot armour, he/she wasn't put on trial with Garrosh.
    Lol...you are mostly wrong about how you view this whole thing, but I won't deny I'm a mass murderer in WoW.
    In fact, everyone is.
    We literally decimate "minor races", that have their own speech, their own culture on a daily basis, even for people we call "druids". Both Alliance and Horde that is.


    Druid: "Hero, go and kill some murlocs, they can't be allowed to go on land and spread, cull them" <-- daily quest/world quest.

    Btw... all I'm saying is that the horde the player is part of, is the horde that is based on the values of Baine, Cairne, Thrall or Varok. And not the horde based on the values of Garrosh or Sylvanas.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-30 at 05:58 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Lol...you are mostly wrong about how you view this whole thing, but I won't deny I'm a mass murderer in WoW.
    In fact, everyone is.
    We literally decimate "minor races", that have their own speech, their own culture on a daily basis, even for people we call "druids". Both Alliance and Horde that is.


    Druid: "Hero, go and kill some murlocs, they can't be allowed to go on land and spread, cull them" <-- daily quest/world quest.

    Btw... all I'm saying is that the horde the player is part of, is the horde that is based on the values of Baine, Cairne, Thrall or Varok. And not the horde based on the values of Garrosh or Sylvanas.
    "Everyone is"

    I don't remember the Alliance player being complicit in the utter annihilation of an entire city-state (lorewise Theramore was a sprawling city-state, not a small island town like in-game). Nor do I remember the Alliance player being complicit in the systematic and utter extermination of an entire magical kingdom of elves.


    Druid: "Hero, go and kill some murlocs, they can't be allowed to go on land and spread, cull them" <-- daily quest/world quest.
    Murlocs are inferior creatures/beasts who cannot be compared to elves or humans, in the same way that irl we don't compare a serial killer to a hunter. Killing murlocs is not murder, it's hunting.

    There are certain races that are clearly defined as "mongrels", like gnolls, kobolds, troggs, quillboars, and murlocs. Literally who cares about them? They exist to be culled.

    WoD originally was going to be about this "Mongrel Horde" (its actual name) and slaughtering these mongrel races, until it got changed to the Orc Iron Horde (which, as some would argue, is not that different).


    Btw... all I'm saying is that the horde the player is part of, is the horde that is based on the values of Baine, Cairne, Thrall or Varok. And not the horde based on the values of Garrosh or Sylvanas.
    So are you denying that the majority of the "Horde based on the values of Bairne, Cairne, Thrall, Varok" followed Sylvanas' orders to despoil the Night elven lands and annihilate their civilization?

    And as a reminder: Varok Saurfang was a major orchestrator of the War of Thorns.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-30 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post



    Murlocs are inferior creatures/beasts who cannot be compared to elves or humans, in the same way that irl we don't compare a murderer to a hunter. Killing murlocs is not murder, it's hunting.

    There are certain races that are clearly defined as "mongrels", like gnolls, kobolds, troggs, quillboards, and murlocs. Literally who cares about them? They exist to be culled.
    Wtf, lol. Meh, if you want to troll, go ahead - whatever.
    I mean, Jinyu are literally murlocs and part of the Alliance.
    Murlocs have their own society, their own speech, they build and use tools, they build housing.
    What's wrong with you. Denial much?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-30 at 06:08 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Wtf, lol. Meh, if you want to troll, go ahead - whatever.
    I mean, Jinyu are literally murlocs and part of the Alliance.
    Murlocs have their own society, their own speech, they build and use tools, they build housing.
    What's wrong with you. Denial much?
    Jinyu are literally evolved murlocs. They are biologically stronger, smarter, more cunning, superior in every way to murlocs, and they can actually speak, unlike murlocs. Thanks for giving me further material with which to support my points, I guess?

    It's funny that you would mention "trolls" because, like murlocs, some of them went through magical evolution and became the elves. Who ironically would humiliate and defeat the trolls later on (the Zandalari were stomped by the Kaldorei).

    It is also hilarious that, while the Alliance allied with the noble and wise Jinyu, the Horde befriended a race of literal monkeys who throw poop at people.

    Murlocs have their own society, their own speech, they build and use tools, they build housing.
    Nope. Canonically Blizzard sees them as "mongrels", enough said.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mongrel_Horde

    And if by "speech" you mean "wild animal noises" and by "housing" you mean "muddy huts" then sure, they have their own speech and housing.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-30 at 06:15 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I was thinking again about the night warrior arc and I feel like I missed something, because if I remember it correctly, it was completely useless and did nothing for the story.

    What happened?
    Darkshore gets attacked, NEs lose
    Tyrande goes Night warrior, attacks Darkshore again and contributes to the victory, however not in any extremely meaningful way. She then faces off against Nathanos, who was NOT infused with Jailer power like Sylvanas was. She should have been able to easily beat him even without the NW power, but even with it, she can not kill him.
    SL happens and she joins the frey, jumps into the maw and starts killing Jailor forces, which we later learn are basically endless.
    She makes it to Torghast and we help her kill the Amalgam of Souls, which again was no impact on anything, except destroying those NE souls so they don't have to suffer anymore. This could also have been done by the maw walker alone, she was just "tagging along"
    We then go on a long quest line to help Tyrande learn how to control the Night Warrior Power and in the end she succeeds.
    She uses her newfound control to attack Sylvanas and in the last moment before she kills her, for yet unknown reasons she loses her Night Warrior Powers for a few moments, allowing Sylvanas to escape.
    We will most likely never know why (remember: Elune only learns about the whole Jailer/Maw situation and Sylvanas much later, there is even a cinematic about it)
    We fight Sylvanas and beat her, without Tyrande, and afterwards get the "you have to chose between vengeance and renewal" part, and she basically gives up the NW powers again.

    Wtf happened here and why did this storyline exist? What did I miss?
    I even made a whole thread about it.

    Tyrande is on my toplist of all the annoying characters ever written in the universe of our galaxy.

    I think the problem is that the story can't reach climax. Tyrande is a character without charm, purpose, idenity. It's just someone angry all the time and a character lacking in depth, won't ever deliver.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-06-30 at 06:23 PM.

  9. #169
    I think the arc was more about Elune and adding some mystery to her.

    People say that Elune being tied concretely to Life and talking make her "revealed", but she is the only god in Warcraft besides Sargeras that can grant serious boons across dimensions that are powerful enough to destroy one's soul.

    Why would a Life god have a power like that?

  10. #170
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And then you cry and beg to remove Calia and etc from the Horde. You cant be touched in game, sure, but that does not mean you will not be utterly ruined by it.
    What does that even mean?

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Jinyu are literally evolved murlocs. They are biologically stronger, smarter, more cunning, superior in every way to murlocs, and they can actually speak, unlike murlocs. Thanks for giving me further material with which to support my points, I guess?

    It's funny that you would mention "trolls" because, like murlocs, some of them went through magical evolution and became the elves. Who ironically would humiliate and defeat the trolls later on (the Zandalari were stomped by the Kaldorei).

    It is also hilarious that, while the Alliance allied with the noble and wise Jinyu, the Horde befriended a race of literal monkeys who throw poop at people.
    I don't even understand what that has to do with anything, lol.
    As if I care what the Horde befriended or what not.
    I'm talking about how you consider races that have culture and are thus no longer animals, "lesser races" as if you are Hitler incarnate.

    Nope. Canonically Blizzard sees them as "mongrels", enough said.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mongrel_Horde

    And if by "speech" you mean "wild animal noises" and by "housing" you mean "muddy huts" then sure, they have their own speech and housing.

    Canonically, Blizzard does not because as seen in that wiki entry, that "horde" doesn't exist.
    Do you even understand what the word "mongrel" means?
    And yes, speech.
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/speech
    That is what the murlocs do. "Wild animal noises"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WO5XabD-s
    Is this a lesser race as well in your opinion? Wtf are you talking about.

    In the next expansion, we will interact with these races. What will you do?
    Centaurs and the Green Dragonflight live in peace on the isles next to each other, as they are "evenly matched". Are the dragons "lesser races" as well?

    If the horde decides you are a "lesser race", is the slaughter of your kind always justified?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-30 at 06:48 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I don't even understand what that has to do with anything, lol.
    As if I care what the Horde befriended or what not.
    I'm talking about how you consider races that have culture and are thus no longer animals, "lesser races" as if you are Hitler incarnate.




    Canonically, Blizzard does not because as seen in that wiki entry, that "horde" doesn't exist.
    Do you even understand what the word "mongrel" means?
    And yes, speech.
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/speech
    That is what the murlocs do. "Wild animal noises"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WO5XabD-s
    Is this a lesser race as well in your opinion? Wtf are you talking about.

    In the next expansion, we will interact with these races. What will you do?
    Centaurs and the Green Dragonflight live in peace on the isles next to each other, as they are "evenly matched". Are the dragons "lesser races" as well?

    If the horde decides you are a "lesser race", is the slaughter of your kind always justified?
    Canonically no one has ever shed a tear for murlocs, while Canonically Garrosh was put on trial for "genocide" due to his actions at Theramore.

    So Canonically Blizzard agrees with me that the slaughter of murlocs is not comparable to the slaughter of humans.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Canonically no one has ever shed a tear for murlocs, while Canonically Garrosh was put on trial for "genocide" due to his actions at Theramore.

    So Canonically Blizzard agrees with me that the slaughter of murlocs is not comparable to the slaughter of humans.
    Aside from it not being true:

    That's "superb" reasoning and ignoring the whole issue .
    If Blizzard's view on this is so divine for you, why won't you accept that they write the horde as a gathering of nice people alongside some bad apples. After all, Blizzard writes it the way it is after all, so you have to accept and like whatever they come up with, no?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Aside from it not being true:

    That's "superb" reasoning and ignoring the whole issue .
    If Blizzard's view on this is so divine for you, why won't you accept that they write the horde as a gathering of nice people alongside some bad apples. After all, Blizzard writes it the way it is after all, so you have to accept and like whatever they come up with, no?
    Prove it.

    Show me when anyone ever cried or at least lamented the mass slaughter of murlocs, and when a murloc mass murderer was put on trial.

    As for the rest, I have accepted that the Horde has the potential for good in it and must now work to atone and redeem themselves for their crimes. I suppose that good was always there, but thanks to the likes of Anduin Wrynn, it has now emerged and the Horde can begin the path of redemption.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Prove it.

    Show me when anyone ever cried or at least lamented the mass slaughter of murlocs, and when a murloc mass murderer was put on trial.
    There are several quests in Legion where you help murlocs for example

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=40045/nature-vs-nurture

    I appreciate murloc-kind far too much to tell you to go kill all the adults. What we should be doing is setting up the next generation to be more peaceful; Murky is the best representative for this. Bring him to talk to the murloc tadpoles. He'll get them on our side.

    The quest text says that he doesn't want you to kill them but to change the next generation.

    Not sure where the random part about a "trial" as an additional thing to prove came from... but that's exactly the issue:
    It's not put on trial.


    How can you still not get the point by now? It's still genocide done by the player, in both factions. And both factions do this on a daily basis.

    edit: I think there is another where you help murlocs exchanging gifts to each other and have an actual attempt at conversation between whatever species you are playing with, and them.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagnb3oI_4

    Ah yeah... this one.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-30 at 07:57 PM.

  16. #176
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Canonically no one has ever shed a tear for murlocs, while Canonically Garrosh was put on trial for "genocide" due to his actions at Theramore.

    So Canonically Blizzard agrees with me that the slaughter of murlocs is not comparable to the slaughter of humans.
    "Shedding a tear" or putting a party on trial is not a requirement for a genocide to occur - Murlocs are both sentient and sapient, so they can definitely qualify as a group to which genocide can occur, regardless of whether or not someone or something mourns their deaths or seeks to punish the parties responsible for said genocide. Similarly, someone being put on trial for such an act doesn't make two instances of genocide "comparable." Genocide by its nature is incomparable.

    This would be akin to saying an act of murder is morally okay if no one knows or cares about it.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    There are several quests in Legion where you help murlocs for example

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=40045/nature-vs-nurture

    I appreciate murloc-kind far too much to tell you to go kill all the adults. What we should be doing is setting up the next generation to be more peaceful; Murky is the best representative for this. Bring him to talk to the murloc tadpoles. He'll get them on our side.

    The quest text says that he doesn't want you to kill them but to change the next generation.

    Not sure where the random part about a "trial" as an additional thing to prove came from... but that's exactly the issue:
    It's not put on trial.


    How can you still not get the point by now? It's still genocide done by the player, in both factions. And both factions do this on a daily basis.

    edit: I think there is another where you help murlocs exchanging gifts to each other and have an actual attempt at conversation between whatever species you are playing with, and them.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagnb3oI_4

    Ah yeah... this one.
    The quest giver doesn't say that killing murlocs is wrong, just that they love murlocs too much to send you to kill them. The reason he gives you to spare murlocs is not "they deserve to live", it's "I like them".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Shedding a tear" or putting a party on trial is not a requirement for a genocide to occur - Murlocs are both sentient and sapient, so they can definitely qualify as a group to which genocide can occur, regardless of whether or not someone or something mourns their deaths or seeks to punish the parties responsible for said genocide. Similarly, someone being put on trial for such an act doesn't make two instances of genocide "comparable." Genocide by its nature is incomparable.

    This would be akin to saying an act of murder is morally okay if no one knows or cares about it.
    Remind me when the "murloc genocide" occurred at the hands of the Alliance?

    Meanwhile, I'll remind you when two well-known genocides occurred at the hands of the Horde.

    Genocide of Theramore Humans -> Start of MoP

    Genocide of Alliance Kaldorei -> Start of BfA

    When did this "Murloc genocide" you speak of occur?

  18. #178
    Ugh... I will not amuse your troll attempts anymore... you should be reported for this, seriously.
    This is dumb.

    Whenever you have to pretend to be retarded to win an argument, just don't bother mate.

    I mean.. you don't even make sense anymore.
    Sparing murlocs doesn't mean "they deserve to live"? Uhm... yes? It means exactly that?

    Away with you.

    what do you think this questtext means?

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=53174/murloc-eye

    "he didn't *actually* cry, he is just sad that this happens and feels for them"

    When did this "Murloc genocide" you speak of occur?
    When you were sent to "cull" the murloc population BEFORE they could POTENTIALLY do harm in a Legion world quest? (and normal quest before it becomes a world quest)
    Or when you kill the bloodfin in Nazjatar, scare and displace their *babies* away and disrupt their life until, for example, a big murloc that wants to protect them shows up, and when you kill *that* one you get a *battle*-pet baby murloc

    Just to name a few examples.

    Weee-hoo-fucking-dooo, we sure are "nice and honorable" and totally not just complete maniacs who kill everyone and everything for whatever little reason we need. I could go into northsire right now and decimate the whole town and it wouldn't even be a special day.
    The Alliance could do the same and it would just be WoW all day every day.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-30 at 09:10 PM.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    What does that even mean?
    Figure it out yourself, honestly.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nice historical revisionism.

    The Horde player is 100% complicit in most of the atrocities Garrosh committed in MoP. They literally aided Garrosh in destroying Theramore, laying waste to the jungles of Pandaria, and finding the Divine Bell. The Horde Rebellion officially started in 5.3.

    Your Horde player character is a mass murderer complicit in the destruction of Theramore. But since the Horde PC has obvious plot armour, he/she wasn't put on trial with Garrosh.
    Theramore was a legitimate military target as it was the largest naval base the Alliance had. I guess by your logic, the Alliance player is complicit in the burning of citizens of Camp Taurajo. The Alliance player is complicit and even aided in Genn Greymane committing a war crime.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The quest giver doesn't say that killing murlocs is wrong, just that they love murlocs too much to send you to kill them. The reason he gives you to spare murlocs is not "they deserve to live", it's "I like them".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Remind me when the "murloc genocide" occurred at the hands of the Alliance?

    Meanwhile, I'll remind you when two well-known genocides occurred at the hands of the Horde.

    Genocide of Theramore Humans -> Start of MoP

    Genocide of Alliance Kaldorei -> Start of BfA

    When did this "Murloc genocide" you speak of occur?
    Theramore wasn't genocide. Look up the definition of genocide before throwing the word around. Teldrassil ALSO wasn't genocide, by definition. Enough with the hyperbolic statements.

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