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  1. #301
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, it's a fact. And Blizzard has stated so in the deep-dive video.
    Blizzard stated they were hybrids. Blizzard has never stated that hybrids cannot be dragons.

    Again, if you disagree, please provide the quote where Blizzard states otherwise.


    And drakonids and dragonmen are as much "dragon" as dracthyr.
    And please post a quote from Blizzard where they stated this.

    Again, here is Blizzard themselves stating that Dracthyr are dragons;

    Dragonflight introduces a new race and class in one known as the dracthyr Evoker, allowing players to play as a dragon (one that can still fit in a raid without crushing your allies.)
    https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/worl...ight-deep-dive


    Ion: "Dracthyr fulfills the fantasy of literally playing a dragon".
    https://youtu.be/yw0rPbFshrY?t=299

    Berger: Early on, we knew we wanted to make a playable dragon. We started with the pillar of making you feel like a dragon–not just looking like one, but feeling like one. Everything came out of that. If we want you to feel like a dragon, we want you to fight in certain ways. What does that mean? We want you to breathe fire, we want you to fly across the battlefield. Being able to embrace the uniqueness by adding the class restriction actually lets us do a lot of things otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to do.
    https://gamerant.com/world-of-warcra...etting-future/

    Cory Taylor: The Dracthyr have wings because they are dragons obviously
    Jackie: We want to be clear that Dracthyr are Evokers, and Evokers are Dracthyr. They’re one and the same. It’s definitely a race/class combo. Dracthyr aren’t like warriors. They are Evokers. The Evoker class abilities are such so tied to being a dragon — wings and tails and claws and dragonflight magic — that the two are just like interconnected at the core.
    https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...-and-tina-wang

    Ion Hazzikostas:The dragon form certainly isn't like a metamorphosis for demon hunters. It is the innate form that the Evoker takes, and all their abilities will be usable in it. But we're looking to find ways to work humanoid form into combat. But ultimately, we want to let players do what they prefer aesthetically, rather than forcing gameplay based on mechanics.
    https://www.buffed.de/World-of-Warcr...hen-1393543/3/

    Jeremy Feasel: “In this particular case, we really wanted to do ‘You can play as a Dragon’. So what is the player version of that? (Where you can play in raids without obstructing everyone’s view with a giant Dragon Form like Alexstrasza)”
    https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/t...-abo-134133610

    Still waiting for you to provide anything beyond your opinion....

    But, as pointed out, you don't have Alexstrasza's powers, since hers is the power of healing flames, where you have no healing flames in the evoker class.
    How would you know this? All of the Evoker's abilities have not been revealed yet.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-06-20 at 02:39 PM.

  2. #302
    Hear me out here.
    What if there were no visage forms, only Drachtyr with different body shape choices
    and a bunch of cosmetic/transmog choices.

    Out of combat you can turn into a large dragon and fly around with one or two passengers.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, it's a fact. And Blizzard has stated so in the deep-dive video.


    And drakonids and dragonmen are as much "dragon" as dracthyr.


    But, as pointed out, you don't have Alexstrasza's powers, since hers is the power of healing flames, where you have no healing flames in the evoker class.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Blizzard stated, unambiguously, that dracthyr are not dragons like Alexstrasza, Kalecgos and other aspects, when they declared the race to be hybrids.

    They are dragons as much as drakonids and dragonmen are dragons.
    "Dragonflight introduces a new race and class in one known as the dracthyr Evoker, allowing players to play as a dragon (one that can still fit in a raid without crushing your allies.)"
    Literally from the blue post.

  4. #304
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    "Dragonflight introduces a new race and class in one known as the dracthyr Evoker, allowing players to play as a dragon (one that can still fit in a raid without crushing your allies.)"
    Literally from the blue post.
    His argument is that Blizzard is essentially misleading or outright lying to players.

    In reality, he's saying that only his viewpoint is the legitimate one. It's even more legitimate than Blizzard; The people who actually created the game, lore, and race.

  5. #305
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blizzard stated they were hybrids. Blizzard has never stated that hybrids cannot be dragons.
    Blizzard has stated they are hybrids. By the definition of the word alone that means they're not dragons.

    Again, if you disagree, please provide the quote where Blizzard states otherwise.
    Not how that works. We have the actual definition of the word that Blizzard used, and they did not elaborate that "hybrid" means something different than the actual english definition of the word for them. If you want to claim that they are using a different meaning than the standard definition, you have to show that evidence.

    And please post a quote from Blizzard where they stated this.
    Both are a result of hybridization.

    How would you know this? All of the Evoker's abilities have not been revealed yet.
    I love how absolutely disgustingly dishonest you just proved yourself. You argue that "we don't know the abilities of the evoker class" but then you also said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They have the abilities and powers of many major dragon characters in Warcraft, including Onyxia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They have abilities from Onyxia, Chromie, and Alexstraza
    The double-standards is so obvious it's almost painful to read. But do you know why I know that the evoker class doesn't have Alexstrasza's powers? Simple:

    Because Blizzard has demonstrated that Alexstrasza's power are about HEALING FLAMES but Blizzard has explained the evoker class uses red dragonflight powers FOR DAMAGE.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    "Dragonflight introduces a new race and class in one known as the dracthyr Evoker, allowing players to play as a dragon (one that can still fit in a raid without crushing your allies.)"
    Literally from the blue post.
    Yeah. (Un)Surprisingly, written in a way to hype up the product. Go watch the deep-dive video, preferably with an english dictionary handy to know the meaning of words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    His argument is that Blizzard is essentially misleading or outright lying to players.

    In reality, he's saying that only his viewpoint is the legitimate one. It's even more legitimate than Blizzard; The people who actually created the game, lore, and race.
    In the end it is semantics anyway. Doesn't change anything. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and blizzard calls them a duck....
    We can call them hybrids or duck or dragon or chair...

    And the usage of powers also doesn't matter. As dragons are not very specific in lore. TONS of different dragons and every breath does something else depending on what blizz needs it to do.

  7. #307
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Blizzard has stated they are hybrids. By the definition of the word alone that means they're not dragons.


    Not how that works. We have the actual definition of the word that Blizzard used, and they did not elaborate that "hybrid" means something different than the actual english definition of the word for them. If you want to claim that they are using a different meaning than the standard definition, you have to show that evidence.


    Both are a result of hybridization.
    Translation; This is entirely my opinion based soley on a word being used out of context.

    If it wasn't your opinion, you would have some quotes from Blizzard explaining how a hybrid cannot be a dragon in Warcraft. Alternatively, you would have some quotes from Blizzard stating how Dracthyr are NOT dragons.

    Instead, you have nothing, and we have Blizzard stating the exact opposite of your argument on multiple occasions from multiple sources.


    I love how absolutely disgustingly dishonest you just proved yourself. You argue that "we don't know the abilities of the evoker class" but then you also said this:


    The double-standards is so obvious it's almost painful to read. But do you know why I know that the evoker class doesn't have Alexstrasza's powers? Simple:

    Because Blizzard has demonstrated that Alexstrasza's power are about HEALING FLAMES but Blizzard has explained the evoker class uses red dragonflight powers FOR DAMAGE.
    Known abilities from the various dragons;
    Alexstraza/Onyxia: Wing Buffet
    Alexstraza: Abundance
    Chromie: Blessing of the Bronze
    Onyxia: Deep Breath

    Your argument: There are NO healing flame abilities in the Evoker class.

    That's not a double standard friend, that's you assuming something based on no evidence.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    In the end it is semantics anyway. Doesn't change anything. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and blizzard calls them a duck....
    We can call them hybrids or duck or dragon or chair...
    Agreed. Merely pointing out the evidence for those still in denial.

    And the usage of powers also doesn't matter. As dragons are not very specific in lore. TONS of different dragons and every breath does something else depending on what blizz needs it to do.
    I would argue that it matters a great deal. Dracthyr Evokers performing abilities from Onyxia and Alexstraza goes a long way towards fulfilling the fantasy of being a playable dragon in WoW.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-06-20 at 03:07 PM.

  8. #308
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Translation; This is entirely my opinion based soley on a word being used out of context.
    Correction: your argument is entirely opinion-based, and literal interpretation of PR speech. And you are again being dishonest claiming I'm "taking a single word out of context" when I'm using the entire explanation about the dracthyr's origins from the deep-dive video.

    If it wasn't your opinion, you would have some quotes from Blizzard explaining how a hybrid cannot be a dragon in Warcraft.
    And I've shown that evidence, explaining the actual definition of the word "hybrid" and detailing the process of "hybridization" and what it means; explaining that Blizzard uses the english language to describe their ideas to an english-speaking audience; how they've never (to my knowledge) said "hybrid" means something different from the actual definition of the word; and how they like to play fast-and-loose with the definition of the word "dragon".

    On top of all that... there's this that further reinforces my point.

    Whereas you keep trying to insist that Blizzard is somehow re-defining the word "hybrid" with nothing but your opinion on it.

    Known abilities from the various dragons;
    Alexstraza/Onyxia: Wing Buffet
    Bullshit. That's something everything with wings can do.

    Alexstraza: Abundance
    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. And to make matters worse for you, Alexstrasza's powers are healing FLAMES but the evoker uses the red dragonflight essence for damage, so by definition there are zero Alexstrasza's abilities in the class.

    Chromie: Blessing of the Bronze
    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. (x2)

    Onyxia: Deep Breath
    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. (x3) All dragons (and even many non-dragons) have breath weapons.

    Your argument: There are NO healing flame abilities in the Evoker class.
    You mean, facts.

    That's not a double standard friend, that's you assuming something based on no evidence.
    This is highly ironic and dishonest considering you keep insisting we have "specific abilities from specific characters" when we don't know any ability name from the evoker class, and we don't know next to nothing about how the tiny handful of abilities showcased actually behave aside from their graphics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  9. #309
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Correction: your argument is entirely opinion-based, and literal interpretation of PR speech.
    How is it opinion-based when its backed by direct quotes the developers?

    And you are again being dishonest claiming I'm "taking a single word out of context" when I'm using the entire explanation about the dracthyr's origins from the deep-dive video.
    If its the entire explanation, then you can provide a quote from Blizzard where they say dragons cannot be hybrids in WoW, or that Dracthyr are not dragons. Until you do, your interpretation of the word hybrid in the context of a fantasy game is entirely your opinion.


    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. And to make matters worse for you, Alexstrasza's powers are healing FLAMES but the evoker uses the red dragonflight essence for damage, so by definition there are zero Alexstrasza's abilities in the class.
    Alexstraza has non-fire healing spells in HotS.

    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. (x2)
    Brian Holinka mentioned Blessing of the Bronze as an upcoming Evoker ability in his interview with MRGM.

    Bullshit. We don't have any ability names yet. (x3) All dragons (and even many non-dragons) have breath weapons.
    The ability was shown and named by a developer in the deep dive videos.

    You mean, facts.
    Nope, just your typical nonsense.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Why are people piling on Teriz for?
    Drakthyr are dragons. No matter what people argue.
    If blizz says this chair with scales is a dragon... it is a dragon.
    Yeah tbh all these people quoting and stating falsities need to chill out tbh, it's getting abit much.

    To be honest, I play on Argeant Dawn one of the Biggest Alliance servers and so many people where talking in Trade chat last night about how excited they're for the new Dragon race.

    The people being negative on the forums have definitely got to be a minority.
    Last edited by Kiriastrasza; 2022-06-20 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #311
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is it opinion-based when its backed by direct quotes the developers?
    Because you're failing to (or intentionally) not recognize the PR speech done with the express intention to hype up the product.

    If its the entire explanation, then you can provide a quote from Blizzard where they say dragons cannot be hybrids in WoW,
    Once again, Teriz, that is not how it works. The word "hybrid" has a specific, defined meaning. If you want to claim Blizzard is using a different meaning for the word, then it's up to you to show evidence of your claims. Besides, as you clearly ignored:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    On top of all that... there's this that further reinforces my point.

    Alexstraza has non-fire healing spells in HotS.
    HotS is not Warcraft. Show us Alexstrasza using green dragonflight powers in WoW.

    Brian Holinka mentioned Blessing of the Bronze as an upcoming Evoker ability in his interview with MRGM.
    Okay. You got one name. But even then it might not be the same ability despite the name.

    The ability was shown and named by a developer in the deep dive videos.
    Except they were not named. They were described.

    Nope, just your typical nonsense.
    Really? Then show me the red dragonflight healing abilities in the evoker's healing spec. I'll wait.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  12. #312
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because you're failing to (or intentionally) not recognize the PR speech done with the express intention to hype up the product.
    So you’re saying that Blizzard is intentionally lying/misleading the public by saying they’re dragons?

    Hilarious the lengths you’re willing to go to try to prove a point….

    Really? Then show me the red dragonflight healing abilities in the evoker's healing spec. I'll wait.
    As soon as you show me a direct quote from Blizzard backing up anything you’ve said in this discussion.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-06-20 at 06:03 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    The problem with that is it pretty much limits the choices to five horde races and two for the Alliance. This is because prior to the destruction of the Well of Eternity and Azshara's fall, only High Elves, Trolls, Tauren, High Mountain Tauren, and Goblins existed on the Horde side and only Humans and Night Elves on the Alliance. Dwarves and Gnomes were still Earthen and Mechagnomes at this time, it wasn't until after the Sundering that they had fully succumbed to the Curse of Flesh and obviously as obviously Vulpera and Draenei are contemporary races and the other races, both allied and primary, are offshoots of those ones listed above that emerge after the Sundering like Zandalari Trolls (or the reverse, Zandalari instead of Darkspear style Trolls), Kul'tirans, Worgen, Orcs, etc.
    False.

    Islands not visited by "the player" still existed. Kul'Tiras didn't magically appear when we decided to go there.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    False.

    Islands not visited by "the player" still existed. Kul'Tiras didn't magically appear when we decided to go there.
    Kul'tiras wasn't an island before the Sundering which is when the Dracthyr were created. Azeroth only had its one main landmass, Ancient Kalimdor, with the Well of Eternity in the center. Trolls changed by the Well of Eternity turned into the High/Night Elves. Yaungol were changed into Tauren/High Mountain Tauren (since we know Huln Highmountain took part in the War of the Ancients), Humans were degenerate Vrykul fleeing Ymeron's purge to settle near Tyr's Fall under the protection of another Vrykul clan. Goblins were an experiment of Mimiron's when he took the proto-GOblins that lived near Ulduar and exposed them the Kaja'mite. And, since we know some of them helped Deathwing create the Demon Soul as well as affix the adamantium plates to his body to keep it intact, we can place Mimiron's experiments before the War of the Ancients as well.

  15. #315
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you’re saying that Blizzard is intentionally lying/misleading the public by saying they’re dragons?
    They're not lying, or misleading. "You can play 'as a dragon'" aptly describes the idea and experience of playing a dracthyr without the dracthyr themselves being dragons.

    As soon as you show me a direct quote from Blizzard backing up anything you’ve said in this discussion.
    I have. Several times over. You just completely ignore and avoid its existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  16. #316
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They're not lying, or misleading. "You can play 'as a dragon'" aptly describes the idea and experience of playing a dracthyr without the dracthyr themselves being dragons.
    If only there was a single quote from Blizzard to back this up…..


    I have. Several times over. You just completely ignore and avoid its existence.
    Nope. Blizzard calling them hybrids doesn’t mean they’re non-dragons. Especially when they’ve stated they’re dragons multiple times, and have never stated that hybrids cannot be dragons.

    We’re done here. For real this time.

  17. #317
    Bloodsail Admiral Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you’re saying that Blizzard is intentionally lying/misleading the public by saying they’re dragons?
    It’s called marketing.
    Kind of like saying playing DHs/DKs are fulfilling the fantasy of playing Illidan/Arthas. Yet you aren’t actually Arthas or Illidan.

    If they were actual dragons blizzard wouldn’t refer to them as “Draconic humanoids” or with “draconic heritage”
    Or in the reveal of the class/race specifically saying “we can’t let you be dragons like alexstraza so you’re the next best thing, draconic humanoids.”

    They’re much closer to Drakonids than they are dragons (Mortals infused with the essence of dragons) which we’ll probably see in alpha/beta with their starting zone.
    And yes, even Drakonids have visage forms as we’ve seen in cataclysm.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2022-06-20 at 08:33 PM.

  18. #318
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If only there was a single quote from Blizzard to back this up…..
    About dracthyr not being dragons? There is, and I've showed it to you several times over, but you ignore its existence every time.

    Nope. Blizzard calling them hybrids doesn’t mean they’re non-dragons.
    It does. I suggest you go back to school to learn english, or as your parents what the word 'hybrid' means.

    Especially when they’ve stated they’re dragons multiple times,
    PR speech aimed to hype up the product.

    and have never stated that hybrids cannot be dragons.
    As always, this isn't how it works. If you want to claim that Blizzard is using a different definition of the word "hybrid", then it's on you to show evidence of them clarifying they're using a different definition. Which would be super hard for you considering the deep-dive video goes against your narrative.

    We’re done here. For real this time.
    You can avoid reality as much as you want, nothing will change. "Hybrid" has a defined meaning. It's on you to prove your case if you're claiming Blizzard is using a different definition. A gryphon is a hybrid of lion and eagle, but isn't a lion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  19. #319
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    It’s called marketing.
    Kind of like saying playing DHs/DKs are fulfilling the fantasy of playing Illidan/Arthas. Yet you aren’t actually Arthas or Illidan.
    Where did Blizzard ever say that playing as a DH or a DK would make you into the Lich King or Illidan?

    If they were actual dragons blizzard wouldn’t refer to them as “Draconic humanoids” or with “draconic heritage”
    They say that while also referring to them as dragons, which indicates that to Blizzard a draconic humanoid can also be a dragon. Please note, Blizzard has NEVER said that dracthyr are not dragons, but they have stated they are dragons multiple times.

    Or in the reveal of the class/race specifically saying “we can’t let you be dragons like alexstraza so you’re the next best thing, draconic humanoids.”
    No, they said we wanted you to play as a dragon, but we can’t let you be as big as Alexstraza, but you’re a dragon via the dracthyr.


    They’re much closer to Drakonids than they are dragons (Mortals infused with the essence of dragons) which we’ll probably see in alpha/beta with their starting zone.
    This is your opinion. Blizzard has never stated this.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-06-20 at 10:04 PM.

  20. #320
    Bloodsail Admiral Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where did Blizzard ever say that playing as a DH or a DK would make you into the Lich King or Illidan?
    Reread what I said.
    The fantasy of being both is very clearly what they were going for.
    Yet I can’t fly around in demon form, or raise Death Knights.


    This is your opinion. Blizzard has never stated this.
    Nah blizzard said that they’re mortals infused with the essences of dragons which is the backstory behind the Drakonids that we’ve seen.
    Both were created to be soldiers for the dragonflights.

    Both have mortal visage forms.

    Both can call upon/use magic from the dragonflights, even chromatic drakonids exist that can use all dragonflights magics like the Dracthyr.

    And most importantly, both are draconic bipedal humanoids.

    Only real difference is that one is melee oriented while the other is a caster (until other classes are added to it) with wings.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2022-06-20 at 10:25 PM.

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