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  1. #441
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post







    They're not casting spells.
    Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know their visage forms didn't have mouths. (/sarcasm)

    Nothing you've shown there means it can't be cast in visage form. Proof of that is how druids can still cast some spells in cat and bear form despite not having fingers to cast spells.

    Also I wasn't aware that Salamanders had wings....
    Fine. "Salamander-with-wings" form. Better? I call them "salamanders" because that is what they look like: salamanders with wings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Looking at those gifs, the one where its flying and breathing fire down actually looks pretty good. I wonder how they will balance the ability to fly and fight like that, but it does look good.
    Its probably not 'real flight'. The model is probably still connected to the ground, its just located higher up to create the appearance of such.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you're imagining them constantly breathing magic out of their mouths while in half elven form? Eyebeams is a single ability on a cooldown. I posted Evoker multiple abilities where they're breathing magic out of their mouths, and they no doubt have several more.

    Don't you think that would look a little silly?
    No? Not at all, really. They're still dracthyr, after all. Even in visage form, they're quite visually draconic. I don't think there's really anything odd or silly about them still doing draconic things such as breath magic and the like, in a form that might not be their true form, but is still quite visually draconic.

  4. #444
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know their visage forms didn't have mouths. (/sarcasm)

    Nothing you've shown there means it can't be cast in visage form.
    Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    No? Not at all, really. They're still dracthyr, after all. Even in visage form, they're quite visually draconic. I don't think there's really anything odd or silly about them still doing draconic things such as breath magic and the like, in a form that might not be their true form, but is still quite visually draconic.
    Well thankfully you're not in control of class design for the DE.

  5. #445
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.
    Luckily, you're not the one who decides that. And considering Blizzard already mentioned they're considering that idea, seems you're on the wrong side of the argument here.

    On top of that, again, my argument still stands: you don't need to be in salamander form to cast spells.

    Well thankfully you're not in control of class design for the DE.
    Neither are you, and, as I mentioned above, Blizzard has already mentioned they're considering the idea of letting dracthyr players fight in visage form, so.... yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post



    Because 90% of the major dragons we've seen in WoW take Elven/Human form.
    Because they choose to, not because they have to.

    It's kind of ironic that Danuser wrote the Visage Day short story, which is actually a pretty touching story about finding and celebrating your unique identity. And then they go on to shoehorn everyone into a very narrow representation of what Dragons are 'supposed to look like'.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well thankfully you're not in control of class design for the DE.
    I never insinuated that I wanted to be. Personally, I don't care. I would more than likely be someone who sticks mostly to true form in combat and visage form for stuff like RP. All I'm saying is that if Blizzard did want to explore the possibility of letting dracthyr evokers fight in their visage form (which they do; that's not my take) then I don't really see why they couldn't.

  8. #448
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Luckily, you're not the one who decides that. And considering Blizzard already mentioned they're considering that idea, seems you're on the wrong side of the argument here.
    And per usual you misinterpreted their meaning. That said, if you honestly believe Blizzard is going to have the dracthyr in Visage form during combat on any significant level that’s your business.

    On top of that, again, my argument still stands: you don't need to be in salamander form to cast spells.
    And again, they’re not casting spells. Hence the charging mechanic.

    Neither are you, and, as I mentioned above, Blizzard has already mentioned they're considering the idea of letting dracthyr players fight in visage form, so.... yeah.
    Again, you’re free to believe that….

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    I never insinuated that I wanted to be. Personally, I don't care. I would more than likely be someone who sticks mostly to true form in combat and visage form for stuff like RP.
    That’s pretty much what’s going to be happening.

    All I'm saying is that if Blizzard did want to explore the possibility of letting dracthyr evokers fight in their visage form (which they do; that's not my take) then I don't really see why they couldn't.
    I would say they’re not because it’s quite clear where their design is headed. Unfortunately people stick to a throwaway line that Ion stated to avoid undermining their design, instead of looking at the actual design philosophy of the race/class. In short, having the Dracthyr fight in visage form undermines the entire concept behind the race and the class. I don’t see any scenario where what people are describing here takes place.

    And thank goodness for that.

  9. #449
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And per usual you misinterpreted their meaning.
    How can "But we're looking to find ways to work humanoid form into combat" be interpreted in any way than "we're considering the idea of allowing you to fight in visage form"? There's no misinterpretation here, PR speech or not.

    Tell me: if I'm misinterpreting their words, what is the correct interpretation?

    And again, they’re not casting spells. Hence the charging mechanic.
    Except... they are casting spells. Charging or not is irrelevant.

    Again, you’re free to believe that….
    It's not about belief. It's what they said. Funny how Blizzard interviews are "the word of god" for you, but suddenly when they go against your narrative, they're no longer to be believed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  10. #450
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    How can "But we're looking to find ways to work humanoid form into combat" be interpreted in any way than "we're considering the idea of allowing you to fight in visage form"? There's no misinterpretation here, PR speech or not.

    Tell me: if I'm misinterpreting their words, what is the correct interpretation?
    "They're looking to find ways to do something" is hardly a confirmation, because if they never find it, they can simply say "we looked, and we couldn't find a way to do it".

    Except... they are casting spells. Charging or not is irrelevant.
    Breathing fire/magic out of your mouth isn't casting a spell.

    It's not about belief. It's what they said. Funny how Blizzard interviews are "the word of god" for you, but suddenly when they go against your narrative, they're no longer to be believed?
    There's a difference a difference between a single throwaway comment, and a race/class that is clearly following the mentioned design goal.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "They're looking to find ways to do something" is hardly a confirmation, because if they never find it, they can simply say "we looked, and we couldn't find a way to do it".



    Breathing fire/magic out of your mouth isn't casting a spell.



    There's a difference a difference between a single throwaway comment, and a race/class that is clearly following the mentioned design goal.
    For someone who was absolutely certain that blizzard would 100% find a way to “fix every issue with playing a large quadrupedal dragon like Alexstraza or Wrathion” instead of a humanoid dragonkin race…you surely have a hard time seeing how easy it would be to have the Dracthyr fight in visage form.

    Animations for all the breaths already exist in all current races. (Directed breaths = monk breath of fire. Pyre AoE breath = battle roar)

    Arguably even the flying while in combat can be done in visage form, as we’ve already had animated wings for our characters that even put us in a ‘levitate’ animation. (Cata legendary daggers, wrathion trinket, etc)

    Only spells I see that’re issues are the Onyxia bombing run spell, and the racial tail swipe/wing gust.
    If it were to be 100% visage only, tail swipe could just be a stomp, wing gust could use the animated wings mentioned above.
    Could have a DH eye beam style temporary shift for the Onyxia style bombing run.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly the only legitimate issue I’d see with fighting in visage form would be if the code is taken directly from Worgen…

    Because then they’d have to change it up a bit to make it so you wouldn’t shift in combat, but I don’t know the actual code so I don’t know if it’s as simple as removing “if (in combat){turn into worgen/dracthyr ();}” or if it’s going to be spaghetti code that’d break the game like the TF2 coconut jpg if removed.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2022-06-23 at 06:35 PM.

  12. #452
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    For someone who was absolutely certain that blizzard would 100% find a way to “fix every issue with playing a large quadrupedal dragon like Alexstraza or Wrathion” instead of a humanoid dragonkin race…you surely have a hard time seeing how easy it would be to have the Dracthyr fight in visage form.
    And they did fix that issue, by simply standing them on their hind legs.

    However, in the case of fighting in visage form, that would go against the design goals of the DE.

    Animations for all the breaths already exist in all current races. (Directed breaths = monk breath of fire. Pyre AoE breath = battle roar)


    Arguably even the flying while in combat can be done in visage form, as we’ve already had animated wings for our characters that even put us in a ‘levitate’ animation. (Cata legendary daggers, wrathion trinket, etc)
    There’s really no point arguing about this, because it’s not going to happen. Refer to the gifs I posted above. Blizzard has made their design goals with the Dracthyr crystal clear. That design is the player performing all of their combat in dracthyr form. Even the Dracthyr racials back up that design philosophy. If they had any intention of doing what you’re describing above, they wouldn’t be “looking into it”, it would have been implemented into the game a long time ago.

    If you want to be an elf or human doing arcane or fire magic and showing off your armor in combat, roll a Mage. If you want to be an elf that constantly switches in and out of a winged form, roll a Demon Hunter.

    They’re clearly building something new and different with the Dracthyr Evoker.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-06-23 at 07:26 PM.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    However, in the case of fighting in visage form, that would go against the design goals of the DE.

    There’s really no point arguing about this. It’s not going to happen. Refer to the gifs I posted above. Blizzard has made their design goals with the Dracthyr crystal clear. That design is the player performing all of their combat in dracthyr form. Even the Dracthyr racials back up that design philosophy.
    Incorrect.

    If it were their design goals that completely 100% restrict them from letting them fight in visage form (for some reason?) then Ion would’ve said so instead of saying they’re looking into making it a thing.

    They’ve been no stranger to making it known when feedback differs from design goals.
    Throwback to “You think you do but you don’t.”… or their refusal to “pull the ripcord” for covenants until 9.2

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you want to be an elf or human doing arcane or fire magic and showing off your armor in combat, roll a mage.
    So what you’re saying is that Evoker is only different than mage because of a model?
    If I use a toy (like reflecting prism) to make a Dracthyr look like a visage form do they become a mage?
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2022-06-23 at 07:34 PM.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    However, in the case of fighting in visage form, that would go against the design goals of the DE.
    And you know their goals........ how? And you know if they change their goals........ how?

    You've become awfully sure about something you have absolutely no real knowledge of, because nobody else does either.

  15. #455
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Incorrect.

    If it were their design goals that completely 100% restrict them from letting them fight in visage form (for some reason?) then Ion would’ve said so instead of saying they’re looking into making it a thing.

    They’ve been no stranger to making it known when feedback differs from design goals.
    Throwback to “You think you do but you don’t.”… or their refusal to “pull the ripcord” for covenants until 9.2
    Again this isn’t worth arguing about. It’s already been decided.

    So what you’re saying is that Evoker is only different than mage because of a model?
    If I use a toy (like reflecting prism) to make a Dracthyr look like a visage form they become a mage?
    There’s a rather large difference between a fire breathing monster and a robed spellcaster. My point is that if someone is looking to be simply an elf casting spells because they miss how their armor looks, the Dracthyr Evoker isn’t the class for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    And you know their goals........ how? And you know if they change their goals........ how?

    You've become awfully sure about something you have absolutely no real knowledge of, because nobody else does either.
    Refer to the gifs I posted and the multiple quotes from Blizzard in regards to the goals of creating the Dracthyr. It’s not to have you fighting in visage form.

    The racials being Wing Buffet and Tail Swipe should be a big clue.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again this isn’t worth arguing about. It’s already been decided.
    You’re right. It’s been decided that they’re looking into how to make it work.



    There’s a rather large difference between a fire breathing monster and a robed spellcaster.
    My point is that if someone is looking to be simply an elf casting spells because they miss how their armor looks, the Dracthyr Evoker isn’t the class for them.
    So it is only the model that differentiates Mage from Evoker according to your logic.

    With that logic we might as well get a class based on the faceless ones. Or a naga sea witch class.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post

    With that logic we might as well get a class based on the faceless ones. Or a naga sea witch class.
    I mean…. Ya lol.

    Why not?

  18. #458
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    So it is only the model that differentiates Mage from Evoker according to your logic.
    The model influences the abilities. Mages don’t have massive wings to blow enemies back, or fly around in combat. Mages aren’t draconic, so they can’t breath magical flame from their mouths. Mages aren’t covered in scales, so they won’t have armor-based abilities based on scales covering their body.

    With that logic we might as well get a class based on the faceless ones. Or a naga sea witch class.
    Not even close to what I’m talking about…..

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    I'll throw Teriz a bone.

    Looking at those gifs, the one where its flying and breathing fire down actually looks pretty good. I wonder how they will balance the ability to fly and fight like that, but it does look good.

    I think if they added:

    1) Enough body options to fill out the form for a bulkier "dragon" look that looks less mortal and more animal.
    2) A "hunch" option that allows them to spend more time on all fours.
    3) Increased visage options for races (doesn't have to be all, but its so limited that it will turn people off..... especially the blood elf male. Most of the people that make BEs don't do the male option)
    4) Tank spec (I know, I know)


    I honestly think that would make them a fine addition without THAT much extra work (hell me and Teriz have both given them tank specs they could literally just steal.... I'm sure other people have too)

    Do all of that and I'd be pretty ok with them.
    Honesty my feelings as well. I LOVE the idea of a dragon-like character actually using DRAGON abilities, like breath attacks and what have you, presumably a claw-slash or tail-swipe as well. My concern is that, since they look "too human", it doesn't really check-out why they can't wear armor.

    Like... what is the POINT of making them look like scaley-humans?

    Is it so they can wear armor? That would make sense, but they can't wear armor. Is it so they can use regular animations? That would also make sense, but no other races can play as their class.

    In my opinion, if you're not going to bother having them wear armor, then just go ALL-IN all that, and make it a worthwhile sacrifice. Make them look SUPER draconic. And yeah, an option between standing "upright" on their hind legs, or "hunched" on all fours, would be super cool. And credit where credit is due, I think the actual FACE options of the Dracthyr look pretty good.

    But if Blizzard ISN'T willing to make those sort of changes, then I don't really think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to "why can't they wear armor". And if you're going to have all these human-looking animations, then it makes more sense to give them a more permanent Visage-form and just pop into Dragon-form during attacks that demand it.

    I think the former is a lot more exciting, but either way is totally valid.

    Having said all that, I REALLY hope they let us choose from any race (or at least those native to Azeroth) for our Visage forms. I don't need a bunch of flamboyant scales or hair colors. The horns are kind of cool, but I can even go without those, if it means being able to run around as something like a Dark Iron or maybe a Nightborne.

    I also kind of hope that perhaps down the road, maybe we could see a Tank-spec based on the Black Dragonflight, but I have a feeling that's pretty wishful thinking.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The model influences the abilities. Mages don’t have massive wings to blow enemies back, or fly around in combat. Mages aren’t draconic, so they can’t breath magical flame from their mouths. Mages aren’t covered in scales, so they won’t have armor-based abilities based on scales covering their body.
    So throwing animated wings on a visage form like the cata daggers/wrathion trinket would solve that issue. Or alternatively temporarily shifting into Dracthyr form for those two specific flying related buffs/spells.

    There’s nothing saying that a dracthyr (or even an actual dragon) couldn’t breathe fire in visage form.



    Not even close to what I’m talking about…..
    Oh but shadow priests aren’t huge lovecraftian horrors without a face.
    Kind of like mages aren’t winged humanoid dragonkin.

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