Instead of "Dracthyr", we should just get player-sized Dragons

[Teriz]

We can all see that simply isn't true. Don't go all amberheard here.

Really? You don't see the human-length arms on the Argonian for example that make their entire upper body look off-kilter?

So basically they are them with wings a tail.... and that's our issue with it.

You misread what I wrote. I'm saying with JUST wings and a tail you're talking about a completely different model. In order for them to look anything close to Dracthry you're going to have to remodel the entire creature.

[PrivateSmiley]

Why am I not surprised that when I clicked on the thread on the front page it takes me straight to Teriz and Ielenia arguing.

Dudes (and or Dudettes):

You have been having this argument (be it about Dracthyr, or Tinkers, or whatever the heck) for literal years now.

Can you both just recognize that you are never going to have the same opinion and just stop inciting each other?

seriously.

[Teriz]

In short... you have no real evidence.

And yet...

It’s an opinion backed by the majority of Druids being Night Elves, the majority of Zandalari being Druids, the majority of Monks being Pandaren, etc.

Which IS evidence.

Also, mind explaining why almost half the tauren players are druids and not shamans or warriors, which are "their classes" according to Warcraft III? Same with trolls: why are roughly a third of the troll players druids, and not shamans? Why do the majority of blood elves are blood hunters, followed by paladins, if mage is "their class"? Those examples, and more, contradict your claims.

Where did I say anything about WC3? There's a myriad of reasons why the most popular Tauren class is Druids. Mainly them being the only Horde druids for years, and it sort of helped that since the start of WoW, Blizzard has created multiple Druid Tauren in lore, and the same applies to Trolls after Cataclysm. In the case of Blood Elves, they were the only Horde paladin race for years, and again Blizzard created BE Paladins during TBC to help push them;



Nothing like that exists for Mechagnomes.

You don't know that. You're just making wild claims, hypothesizing by going on nothing but your own opinion and no real facts.

When the majority of monks are Pandaren, and the majority of Pandaren are Monks, it's not just my opinion, it's an opinion backed by EVIDENCE. Something you should consider doing more often.

[Gumble]

When the majority of monks are Pandaren, and the majority of Pandaren are Monks, it's not just my opinion, it's an opinion backed by EVIDENCE. Something you should consider doing more often.

Is that the case? Where is your evidence for that? I've honestly not seen a Panda monk since Pandaria. I see a few pandas as priest, mages and rogues (I assume the CC racial with RMP, I guess?), but I rarely see Pandas period, and certainly not as monks.

Other racials are simply too good to go Panda. Like 9/10 Monks I see are Orcs, but I'm horde so there is that.

[Teriz]

Is that the case? Where is your evidence for that? I've honestly not seen a Panda monk since Pandaria. I see a few pandas as priest, mages and rogues (I assume the CC racial with RMP, I guess?), but I rarely see Pandas period, and certainly not as monks.

Other racials are simply too good to go Panda. Like 9/10 Monks I see are Orcs, but I'm horde so there is that.

This is from 2019, but I don't see why it would be any different now;

https://web.archive.org/web/20190409...php?class=Monk

[Gumble]

This is from 2019, but I don't see why it would be any different now;

https://web.archive.org/web/20190409...php?class=Monk

Ah I see, the issue with that is the inability to get current data at max level. I'm sure there are plenty of low level monks that were abandoned and just made for memes. Anything below max level really doesn't matter and shouldn't be counted for population.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, that image you showed for the BE paladin shows a point you are actually NOT trying to make. People pick their race for 2 reasons, racials and visual appeal. Blood Elves are the horde "pretty" race and they are super popular because of that.

So unless the dracthyr get some significant improvements, the lack of sex appeal for them will likely impact how many people will want to play them. Some will if they are just grossly overpowered, but alot of people that play casters and healers LOVE Blood Elves and play them exclusively for "pretty"

(Heck, every girl I know save 1 that plays wow has a "pretty" Blood Elf priest that she plays alot and dresses up)

[Teriz]

Ah I see, the issue with that is the inability to get current data at max level. I'm sure there are plenty of low level monks that were abandoned and just made for memes. Anything below max level really doesn't matter and shouldn't be counted for population.

So any player below max level isn't actually a player paying a monthly subscription to WoW?

Interesting logic. So when we all enter Dragonflight this fall, none of us will actually be playing the game and paying for sub fees until we hit level 70?

[Ielenia]

And yet...

Which IS evidence.

It's not, because it's contradicted a whole lot by the other race/class combinations in the game, as I demonstrated.

Where did I say anything about WC3? There's a myriad of reasons why the most popular Tauren class is Druids. Mainly them being the only Horde druids for years, and it sort of helped that since the start of WoW, Blizzard has created multiple Druid Tauren in lore, and the same applies to Trolls after Cataclysm. In the case of Blood Elves, they were the only Horde paladin race for years, and again Blizzard created BE Paladins during TBC to help push them;

Except none of that changes the fact that the druid is not the tauren's "theme class". It's the shaman. They're a shamanistic race, not a druidic race. Same thing with the trolls: they're not a druidic race, they're a shamanistic race. And it doesn't matter what Blizzard 'pushed', because the blood elf's "theme class" is the mage. And that is what we're talking about, here: a class that reflects a race's theme. And the druid theme does not reflect the tauren's and troll's themes, and paladins do not reflect the blood elf's theme.

Nothing like that exists for Mechagnomes.

And that's irrelevant. Because, again, nothing indicates that a "class themed after a race" makes said race more popular.

When the majority of monks are Pandaren, and the majority of Pandaren are Monks, it's not just my opinion, it's an opinion backed by EVIDENCE. Something you should consider doing more often.

No, it's an opinion without evidence when you claim that, without the monk class, pandaren not only wouldn't be as popular, but would be one of the dead-last races in popularity.

- - - Updated - - -

This is from 2019, but I don't see why it would be any different now;

https://web.archive.org/web/20190409...php?class=Monk

Those count characters from level 20 to 120. We have no way of filtering those to just max level since it's a snapshot of the website.

- - - Updated - - -

So any player below max level isn't actually a player paying a monthly subscription to WoW?

It's not a player seriously playing monk.

I have a rogue that's level 18 (after the squish) that I used to use as a bank, and it's currently collecting dust. And it would still count in a census as a "rogue character".

[Teriz]

Also, that image you showed for the BE paladin shows a point you are actually NOT trying to make. People pick their race for 2 reasons, racials and visual appeal. Blood Elves are the horde "pretty" race and they are super popular because of that.

So unless the dracthyr get some significant improvements, the lack of sex appeal for them will likely impact how many people will want to play them. Some will if they are just grossly overpowered, but alot of people that play casters and healers LOVE Blood Elves and play them exclusively for "pretty"

(Heck, every girl I know save 1 that plays wow has a "pretty" Blood Elf priest that she plays alot and dresses up)

Uh, the point I'm making is that Blizzard has consistently shown Blood Elves as Paladins, which helps a prospective player choose that race and class combination because it looks fitting and cool. They've even created BE Paladin heroes to help push this.

Mechagnomes never got that treatment, so they feel out of place, and leads to them getting skipped over by players.

Since Dracthyr are a new race, and part of the focus of the next expansion, it's HIGHLY doubtful they'll be getting the Mechagnome treatment. In fact, them being the sole provider of the Evoker class gives them a huge leg up on most races in the game.

- - - Updated - - -

/snip

And here we have another case where Ielenia ignores evidence that proves his arguments completely wrong.

No need to go any further.

[Gumble]

So any player below max level isn't actually a player paying a monthly subscription to WoW?

Interesting logic. So when we all enter Dragonflight this fall, none of us will actually be playing the game and paying for sub fees until we hit level 70?

My little priest that I made and simply cannot level because I find the class boring, and my level 50 ally paladin that I made for an achievement should both not count because they are not characters I play. They effectively don't exist in the game, yet both would be counted by what you mean.


And as far as leveling Dracthyr, yes, until you hit 70 you don't count. Most of you will quit and not level the new class or play it. Until you hit 70 and bother to play it, I don't care if you make 100 of them, they don't count.

[Teriz]

My little priest that I made and simply cannot level because I find the class boring, and my level 50 ally paladin that I made for an achievement should both not count because they are not characters I play. They effectively don't exist in the game, yet both would be counted by what you mean.

Not every character below max level is an alt.

And as far as leveling Dracthyr, yes, until you hit 70 you don't count.

Which is a better argument since it requires another character to unlock the class.

However, that isn't the case with Monks.

Back to the point of all of this; The DE has a very high chance of being one of the game's most popular classes.

[Gumble]

Back to the point of all of this; The DE has a very high chance of being one of the game's most popular classes.

Continuing to say it won't make it true. They COULD make it a pretty awesome class. Had they actually gone with some of your visuals or either of our suggestions for specs and mechanics...... that could have been pretty awesome.


As it stands, most people hate Blood Elf males, the draconic form needs alot of work, and the solo class/race combo is generally the worst way to make something popular.


If they make the class amazing, or SUPER OP, it will get players..... if not, I'd imagine the population will be alot like the posters in this thread..... a couple of diehards who tell everyone how awesome it is, and the rest of us, who say "no thanks".

[Teriz]

Continuing to say it won't make it true. They COULD make it a pretty awesome class. Had they actually gone with some of your visuals or either of our suggestions for specs and mechanics...... that could have been pretty awesome.

You need to look a little closer. Many of the mechanics I discussed in my write-ups are in this class.

As it stands, most people hate Blood Elf males, the draconic form needs alot of work, and the solo class/race combo is generally the worst way to make something popular.

If they make the class amazing, or SUPER OP, it will get players..... if not, I'd imagine the population will be alot like the posters in this thread..... a couple of diehards who tell everyone how awesome it is, and the rest of us, who say "no thanks".

It's more than likely going to be OP at launch. Every hero class has been, and this will more than likely not be any different.

You put that up with the first new ranged spec since vanilla, the first new healing spec in over a decade, a class that starts at level 58, and a new class that utilizes the very popular concept of the 5 dragonflights, and you have a situation where a lot of people are going to give the new class a whirl and make it their new main.

[Claymore]

For the record, I actually AM on-board with them being a race-class combo unto themselves. My think is, I just feel like there's just justification for making them humanoid and NOT able to wear armor. I'm fine with them not wearing armor, if they look super draconic. And I'm fine with them looking more humanoid, if they can wear armor. But this just seems a bizarre middle-ground they seem to have landed on, and I don't think there's really any justifying it, and whether or not this is actually true, it SEEMS like a product of laziness.

Personally, I would be beyond hyped of they more closely resembled actual dragons, since I think "playable dragons" is an EXTREMELY cool and exciting idea! But that's totally just my own preference, and so I recognize the bias.

But I genuinely think if they launch as-is, it's going to have an enormously negative impact. You'll see a wave of them initially no matter what, but I don't think it's going to surprise anyone if they're met with a massive backlash. At least, if they launch looking how they did when initially shown.

I'm certainly not holding my breath for it, but considering it really was the ONLY negative sentiment I remember seeing in the wake of the initial Dragonflight announcement, I suppose there is SOME possibility that Blizzard took the feedback and has been working on them. I mean, we really haven't seen anything new with them since that first few days of info, so who knows.

[Ielenia]

And here we have another case where Ielenia ignores evidence that proves his arguments completely wrong.

I'm not "ignoring" anything. If anything, you are the one ignoring evidence, namely what goes against your narrative:

I showed you how your arguments regarding "race popularity depends on class themed after them" are bogus because they fail to explain the "race/class combo popularity" of other races, such as tauren and blood elf, since shamans and mages are not the most playable class for those races, respectively.

You use the old WoW Census website data for the monk from web.archives.org but you fail to realize and admit that this data is flawed because it counts all characters from level 20 to 120, meaning it counts characters that were made as a meme and characters abandoned for one reason or another, and I even gave an example of such in the form of my own rogue character.

[Gumble]

For the record, I actually AM on-board with them being a race-class combo unto themselves. My think is, I just feel like there's just justification for making them humanoid and NOT able to wear armor. I'm fine with them not wearing armor, if they look super draconic. And I'm fine with them looking more humanoid, if they can wear armor. But this just seems a bizarre middle-ground they seem to have landed on, and I don't think there's really any justifying it, and whether or not this is actually true, it SEEMS like a product of laziness.

You could make them real dragons or lean more into the dragonknight apect (armored and using weapons), but yea, the middle ground kinda sucks. Either they should transform and be really dragon-like, or they should be able to be armored, use weapons, etc.

I suppose the "no melee or tank spec" does take away the need to use weapons, since they effectively neutered them for melee. It does make them feel it feel lazy, but there IS the issue that mail armor tends to look pretty "MEH" in WoW, so they would look potentially silly as tanks in current mail style armor.


Still hoping they go full no armor and more dragon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah I see, the issue with that is the inability to get current data at max level. I'm sure there are plenty of low level monks that were abandoned and just made for memes. Anything below max level really doesn't matter and shouldn't be counted for population.

This is a rather flawed view to account for population as a lot of players don’t actually care about end game and lvling alts will be there full time play activity and said lvling can stop at various levels for various reasons rather that be unlocking something they didn’t have before, twinking, wanting to go through expan story lines ect.

Speaking for my self earlier this year I spent a few weeks only lvling alts for race/class combos I liked but I stopped all of them at lvl 50 as I didn’t want to go into shadowlands. By the end I had 4 new toons all at 50 that I have no plans on getting to 60 until I can skip shadowlands but that I really like the concept behind the race/class combo.

[Gumble]

This is a rather flawed view to account for population as a lot of players don’t actually care about end game and lvling alts will be there full time play activity and said lvling can stop at various levels for various reasons rather that be unlocking something they didn’t have before, twinking, wanting to go through expan story lines ect.

Speaking for my self earlier this year I spent a few weeks only lvling alts for race/class combos I liked but I stopped all of them at lvl 50 as I didn’t want to go into shadowlands. By the end I had 4 new toons all at 50 that I have no plans on getting to 60 until I can skip shadowlands but that I really like the concept behind the race/class combo.

So you have 4 alts, that are sitting at level 50, doing nothing, interacting with nothing, and waiting for an expansion at least 6 months away?

Yep I'd say that qualifies for not counting them. You chose to abandon them and not play them until "maybe" next expansion.

Don't care if you make 100 level 1 pandas to prop up the low level panda population, until they do something, they are just worthless alts.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So you have 4 alts, that are sitting at level 50, doing nothing, interacting with nothing, and waiting for an expansion at least 6 months away?

Yep I'd say that qualifies for not counting them. You chose to abandon them and not play them until "maybe" next expansion.

Don't care if you make 100 level 1 pandas to prop up the low level panda population, until they do something, they are just worthless alts.

No one is making toons to prop up numbers players are making them doing something with them and then once there goal is reached moving on for one reason or another. the same thing happens with max lvl characters as well I have 5 lvl 60's who would all be counted if only max lvl mattered and out of those 5 I am only actual playing one the rest have been just as if not more left behind then the 50's I made just because I liked the combo.

for example I lvled 2 dwarfs pally's to 60 one I dropped as soon as I hit 60 and they will never be played again the only reason they haven't been deleted is because I don't need the character slot yet while the 50's I made are likely to get atleast some play as I mess around with there themes even if I don't main any of them.

[TbouncerT]

Isn't Dracthyr technically this 'player-sized' dragons you speak of? I mean they are literally the size of the player characters in-game and look like dragons