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  1. #21
    This thread is interesting because it shows the dichotomy of the WoW playerbase very well. You have a group of people who are pointing out different builds saying they can play whatever spec they found in the tree and another group focused on min/maxing saying you can't play it because it's not viable.

    So, here's a general rule of thumb about talent trees. You can play whatever build you want, as long as you're not hindering the group. You want to play lazer bear? Great, go for it! But, if you're unable to tank the group content you want to play then you have to accept that you might have to play a different build. Of course, that's all dependent on two things. One being your personal skill level, and two being the level of content you're playing at. If you just log in, do a few heroics, low level keys, and LFR/normal, odds are you can do whatever. However, if you're playing heroic/mythic raiding, high level keys, rated PvP, then you will likely not be able to get a group or will be kicked if your build isn't up to snuff. But, that's the beauty of having this system where we can just save builds and swap on the fly. Hit a button and you're whatever spec/build you need to be.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    If you just log in, do a few heroics, low level keys, and LFR/normal, odds are you can do whatever.
    Once I realized this the game became alot more fun.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    Once I realized this the game became alot more fun.
    This is how I personally approach it too. The min/max thing, dedicated play time each week, grinding, gear treadmill, all of it just sucks and isn't fun to me. The only thing that is the exception was the Mage Tower which was really cool and I did end up gearing toons more back in Legion to be able to clear it.

  4. #24
    Fanbase: Stop catering to the top 1%!
    Blizzard: Here is some variety to play what you want.
    Fanvase: Why bother? I'll only play what the top 1% does!

  5. #25
    The expectation will be for you to not be a hinderance to your group and if that requires an add-on to sort players for me or if i have to manually inspect people i will gladly do it because my time is valuable to me. This sort of thing only really works in a new game without a playerbase with similar tools to pick apart every single aspect which is what creates a Meta for a reason. Plus the covenant choice ( hahaha ) was not really even seen in the playerbase so it shows you that the playerbase will do whats in their best interest.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    ? It happens a lot. I mean you can find passives in the spec tree based on deep actives on the class tree. E.g. Innervate & Improved Innervate
    so in order for you to not have innervate but take improved innervate you would have to build towards the entire left side of the general druid tree including taking combo abilities

    it can happen but its one of those situations where you have to go out of your way for it to happen and im going to hope that it is addressed in testing because while it requires an iq below a log i have no doubt some people will do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    The expectation will be for you to not be a hinderance to your group and if that requires an add-on to sort players for me or if i have to manually inspect people i will gladly do it because my time is valuable to me. This sort of thing only really works in a new game without a playerbase with similar tools to pick apart every single aspect which is what creates a Meta for a reason. Plus the covenant choice ( hahaha ) was not really even seen in the playerbase so it shows you that the playerbase will do whats in their best interest.
    the reason i mention the covenant choice is because players were arguing for restrictions, similar to here with the talents, because they thought that with freedom they would get kicked from every group if they didnt swap on a per boss basis and they turned out to be wrong which i am going to say is what will happen now with everyone saying "you must use the meta build or not get into groups".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    This thread is interesting because it shows the dichotomy of the WoW playerbase very well. You have a group of people who are pointing out different builds saying they can play whatever spec they found in the tree and another group focused on min/maxing saying you can't play it because it's not viable.

    So, here's a general rule of thumb about talent trees. You can play whatever build you want, as long as you're not hindering the group. You want to play lazer bear? Great, go for it! But, if you're unable to tank the group content you want to play then you have to accept that you might have to play a different build. Of course, that's all dependent on two things. One being your personal skill level, and two being the level of content you're playing at. If you just log in, do a few heroics, low level keys, and LFR/normal, odds are you can do whatever. However, if you're playing heroic/mythic raiding, high level keys, rated PvP, then you will likely not be able to get a group or will be kicked if your build isn't up to snuff. But, that's the beauty of having this system where we can just save builds and swap on the fly. Hit a button and you're whatever spec/build you need to be.
    this is why i love the system

    lets say you are on jailer and you have your dps set up perfectly but the group seems to need a bit of a dps bump so since the boss doesn't really do much in terms of moving around and you dont need movement you can sacrifice a couple of those talents in order to get an execute.

    Lets say that you are an off tank on a boss that has both a healing and a dps check so you can essentially drop a healer because now more specs have more powerful off healing abilities.

    Cant do that though because limit says its a 2% loss and im in a normal mode guild and thus i must copy the top end because the only difference between us is time investment and if i play at 2% less output that is the reason we wipe and not because i keep setting off bombs during transition or running beams through the group.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    so in order for you to not have innervate but take improved innervate you would have to build towards the entire left side of the general druid tree including taking combo abilities

    it can happen but its one of those situations where you have to go out of your way for it to happen and im going to hope that it is addressed in testing because while it requires an iq below a log i have no doubt some people will do it

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    the reason i mention the covenant choice is because players were arguing for restrictions, similar to here with the talents, because they thought that with freedom they would get kicked from every group if they didnt swap on a per boss basis and they turned out to be wrong which i am going to say is what will happen now with everyone saying "you must use the meta build or not get into groups".

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    this is why i love the system

    lets say you are on jailer and you have your dps set up perfectly but the group seems to need a bit of a dps bump so since the boss doesn't really do much in terms of moving around and you dont need movement you can sacrifice a couple of those talents in order to get an execute.

    Lets say that you are an off tank on a boss that has both a healing and a dps check so you can essentially drop a healer because now more specs have more powerful off healing abilities.

    Cant do that though because limit says its a 2% loss and im in a normal mode guild and thus i must copy the top end because the only difference between us is time investment and if i play at 2% less output that is the reason we wipe and not because i keep setting off bombs during transition or running beams through the group.
    I think your looking at WoW as some kind of multiplayer Mass Effect where your choices are yours and the world operates around them but WoW is a Meta oriented game since every choice you make has an impact on me who has no say in that choice unless i flat out decline you ( and i have for players not being the right covenant ) because i want as smooth and easy path as possible. If the talent tree's were like Oh your Chaos Bolt is Orange or it was all cosmetic choices that would be better for player identity.

    Let's assume that the dungeons ( i barely raid and think its one of the things WoW is terrible at ) are somewhat similar where you go every other pack as having an important spell to interrupt or kick and you as a player are going into a dungeon with the ability to remove damage taken or make us in combat for a shorter amount of time and you do not, you expect that people are selecting you ( assuming your dps ) are going to pick you over someone who has taken that talent? You can talk about your own personal toons story and how you dont kick spells because your a Orc or whatever but i along with many others could care less as we want an easier experience.

    If for instance that choice helped the group every other pack or every 3rd pack in a similar way ( remember if the healer is healing they are not doing damage which in turn makes the fights longer ) instead of a kick i would likely be fine with that. That is the point in which you are missing in that people are here to get the goals they themselves want done and then move on after a time. WoW is not some long form RPG like the Witcher nor should it be once you add in someone because at that point it becomes like a sports team ( minor or professional or beer league ).

  8. #28
    There are loads of bad specs, but there will only be one optimal.

    That is the issue with all talent systems.

    The only one i ever saw that had actual choices was the utility tiers in SWTOR.
    Sadly, they have changed it to something else now.

    When you are given only utility choices you can pick between several choices that you like.
    When the talents affect output, then there is no choice. It's the optimal one or you are being bad.

    Not to mention that this will be a nightmare to balance.
    Whoever asked for this, you have no idea what you've done. The amount of people that will go around with joke specs ruining your groups will be hilarious and completely your fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Fanbase: Stop catering to the top 1%!
    Blizzard: Here is some variety to play what you want.
    Fanvase: Why bother? I'll only play what the top 1% does!
    I mean, the content is tailored for the 1%.
    If this came, as it should with a decrease of difficulty to make up for all the fail builds, the 1% will complain and everyone will follow suit.

    The thing is, this game is made for the 1%. A talent system is not enough to change that. It has to be a change in all the systems and not caring if the 1% find the game too easy for them. It's basically what FF does and seems to work out.

    While the game is made for the 1%, the mindset will be the one from the 1%. People just want to play the game and be viable/not have to deal with the aggravation of not being optimal.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-06-14 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I think your looking at WoW as some kind of multiplayer Mass Effect where your choices are yours and the world operates around them but WoW is a Meta oriented game since every choice you make has an impact on me who has no say in that choice unless i flat out decline you ( and i have for players not being the right covenant ) because i want as smooth and easy path as possible. If the talent tree's were like Oh your Chaos Bolt is Orange or it was all cosmetic choices that would be better for player identity.

    Let's assume that the dungeons ( i barely raid and think its one of the things WoW is terrible at ) are somewhat similar where you go every other pack as having an important spell to interrupt or kick and you as a player are going into a dungeon with the ability to remove damage taken or make us in combat for a shorter amount of time and you do not, you expect that people are selecting you ( assuming your dps ) are going to pick you over someone who has taken that talent? You can talk about your own personal toons story and how you dont kick spells because your a Orc or whatever but i along with many others could care less as we want an easier experience.

    If for instance that choice helped the group every other pack or every 3rd pack in a similar way ( remember if the healer is healing they are not doing damage which in turn makes the fights longer ) instead of a kick i would likely be fine with that. That is the point in which you are missing in that people are here to get the goals they themselves want done and then move on after a time. WoW is not some long form RPG like the Witcher nor should it be once you add in someone because at that point it becomes like a sports team ( minor or professional or beer league ).
    i like your example because it is kind of what the system does well.

    From what we can see in the two trees is that all specs will have access to something like an interrupt (assuming the theme is shared between all classes) meaning if i am doing a dungeon im going to take the interrupt. If i am a druid tank doing a +5 when im normally doing a +18 because we are trying to help a guildie then im going to go with a fun build like laser bear and still have the interrupt.

    Now if i were say a DK that didnt take AMZ then yeah dont invite me but that is the result of my choice. The game is designed around a meta but it has so many different levels of players that the meta for your +20 dungeons is meaningless in a +5 and while you can decline somebody theres always more groups and the option to make their own if they want. You dont need a NF to do a DOS +5 but at +18 you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    There are loads of bad specs, but there will only be one optimal.

    That is the issue with all talent systems.

    The only one i ever saw that had actual choices was the utility tiers in SWTOR.
    Sadly, they have changed it to something else now.

    When you are given only utility choices you can pick between several choices that you like.
    When the talents affect output, then there is no choice. It's the optimal one or you are being bad.

    Not to mention that this will be a nightmare to balance.
    Whoever asked for this, you have no idea what you've done. The amount of people that will go around with joke specs ruining your groups will be hilarious and completely your fault.

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    I mean, the content is tailored for the 1%.
    If this came, as it should with a decrease of difficulty to make up for all the fail builds, the 1% will complain and everyone will follow suit.

    The thing is, this game is made for the 1%. A talent system is not enough to change that. It has to be a change in all the systems and not caring if the 1% find the game too easy for them. It's basically what FF does and seems to work out.

    While the game is made for the 1%, the mindset will be the one from the 1%. People just want to play the game and be viable/not have to deal with the aggravation of not being optimal.
    you can have an item that comes in 3 colors and if the top players all choose red then the blue and green items will be seen as worse. The community perception of all systems in the game is the biggest issue with the game and it isnt even hidden.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Fanbase: Stop catering to the top 1%!
    Blizzard: Here is some variety to play what you want.
    Fanvase: Why bother? I'll only play what the top 1% does!
    Fanbase just wants to see how that 1% doing other 99% and pretends its ok quality.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Fanbase: Stop catering to the top 1%!
    Blizzard: Here is some variety to play what you want.
    Fanvase: Why bother? I'll only play what the top 1% does!
    Lol that is about right

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    They didn't allow for more. It was just different passives unless you specced being full useless.
    I'm coming into this late, but there absolutely were different talent builds for different fights for healing Priests, even as late as Cata. I had at least two builds of Holy and two builds of Disc I was using throughout the latter half of the expansion. I had a specific build of Disc I used on Spine of Deathwing that I remember distinctly, because I gave up Atonement for Inner Focus.

    And they were absolutely valid builds.

    Of course, all of the theorycrafting discussion that took place around those builds is gone now, since they nuked the official Healing Forums.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    i like your example because it is kind of what the system does well.

    From what we can see in the two trees is that all specs will have access to something like an interrupt (assuming the theme is shared between all classes) meaning if i am doing a dungeon im going to take the interrupt. If i am a druid tank doing a +5 when im normally doing a +18 because we are trying to help a guildie then im going to go with a fun build like laser bear and still have the interrupt.

    Now if i were say a DK that didnt take AMZ then yeah dont invite me but that is the result of my choice. The game is designed around a meta but it has so many different levels of players that the meta for your +20 dungeons is meaningless in a +5 and while you can decline somebody theres always more groups and the option to make their own if they want. You dont need a NF to do a DOS +5 but at +18 you do.

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    you can have an item that comes in 3 colors and if the top players all choose red then the blue and green items will be seen as worse. The community perception of all systems in the game is the biggest issue with the game and it isnt even hidden.
    The game is what the devs make it. While they keep making the game for the 1%, the community will perceive their way as the only one to play the game. They aren't wrong either.
    As i said, the devs have to change the game in all levels in order for that perception to change.

  14. #34
    More possible combinations lead to more customization as a matter of consequence - that's just math, and shouldn't surprise anyone.

    The real question is, do they lead to MEANINGFUL customization? Do they actually create significantly varied and viable playstyles, or do they create the ILLUSION of variety?

    We'll have to see. My gut feeling says these talents will offer more variety, but mostly in situational and more or less insignificant ways. The same way we now have talents that flip based on whether something is AoE or single target, we may have the same situation again where trees will be mostly identical and just adjust one or two talents based on whether a fight has X.

    The romantic notion of several competing "builds" on a spec is probably an illusion. But we will have to wait for hard data to be sure.

  15. #35
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    It's already been said but it's a illusion of choice

    It was a illusion in vanilla
    It was a illusion with the new trees
    It was a illusion with azerite gear and powers
    It was a illusion with covenant powers
    It will be a illusion when DF launches

    Most people are going to choose the cookie cutter, how it has ALWAYS been

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    It's already been said but it's a illusion of choice

    It was a illusion in vanilla
    It was a illusion with the new trees
    It was a illusion with azerite gear and powers
    It was a illusion with covenant powers
    It will be a illusion when DF launches

    Most people are going to choose the cookie cutter, how it has ALWAYS been
    Most people are also trash who don't look to optimize their gear/talents or even simcraft for that matter, so their opinion on the topic is irrelevant.

    The new talent tree system will either stretch the class design too thin that viable builds will be hard to produce or they will add enough customization for builds to have different niche, and viable, roles. Anyone worth their salt who knows their class in and out will determine that for themselves, and this will barely be a footnote in their gameplay for Dragonflight.

    And illusion my ass... There were plenty of viable niche builds with the old system for hybrid classes alone. Many of them basically mandatory for certain encounters but useless for others, which means you needed both builds to exist, and good players experimented and sometimes found better builds that could partially do both and still be viable with others in the same role.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2022-06-15 at 02:43 AM.
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    .

  17. #37
    Every time a thread like this is posted it gets swarmed with angry people who think that the only way to play the game is to mythic raid and do +20 keys.

    If that's you then fine, yeah these talent trees are gonna be "solved" and you'll only swap a few around based on what boss/dungeon you're running. But consider everyone else. For people in normal/heroic guilds, lfr players, and LEVELING the talent tree can offer novel ways to adjust your gameplay with little no drawback.

    I guarantee there are gonna be some FUN permutations of talents to pick when doing leveling content, or timewalking content, or low level pvp. And for god's sake, it's a game, let people have some fun without belittling them for not playing the way you play.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatgunn View Post
    I guarantee there are gonna be some FUN permutations of talents to pick when doing leveling content, or timewalking content, or low level pvp. And for god's sake, it's a game, let people have some fun without belittling them for not playing the way you play.
    The problem with this community is that its filled with sociopaths who think only their enjoyment of the game matters. That 100% optimization(or literally breaking the game and exploiting it) and basically doing math is the only fun thing about this game and that everyone else should go die.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2022-06-15 at 02:55 AM.
    Fod Sparta los wuth, ahrk okaaz gekenlok kruziik himdah, dinok fent kos rozol do daan wah jer do Samos. Ahrk haar do Heracles fent motaad, fah strunmah vonun fent yolein ko yol
    .

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    The problem with this community is that its filled with sociopaths who think only their enjoyment of the game matters. That 100% optimization(or literally breaking the game and exploiting it) and basically doing math is the only fun thing about this game and that everyone else should go die.
    If all of those players would also stay in braindead content land there wouldn't be friction or cause for concern in the first place.

    But if I just want to farm my weekly 15s+ and I'll have to check for clowns not taking interrupts and other necessitys that's where we get a problem and talent checker addons/weak auras will rise up "gatekeeping" the "creative" players.

    Or is the game design toxic and elitist now because mob groups and bosses have some very dangerous but interuptable casts?

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    If all of those players would also stay in braindead content land there wouldn't be friction in the first place.

    But if I just want to farm my weekly 15s+ and I'll have to check for clowns not taking interrupts and other necessitys that's where we get a problem and talent checker addons/weak auras will rise up "gatekeeping" the "creative" players.

    Or is the game design toxic and elitist now because mob groups and bosses have some very dangerous but interuptable casts?
    No, the problem is blizzard designing content that requires that much training without giving ANY in game method to learn said curve(Proving grounds tried to remedy this, and as always Blizzard half-assed that system and abandonwared it immediately). The playerbase is a result of the dev's lack of foresight for their game design. And Blizzard continues to cater to that mindset to this day, which is why this community is so toxic.

    Its not directly the fault of the playerbase, its Blizzard's own design decisions that causes this community issue. The problem then becomes that they cater to that part of the community more and then wonder why the rest of their playerbase then leaves to play other games.

    I have no issue teaching players what they need to in order to perform well. Many in this community don't care and bascially complain other players exist. It is not a simple issue, but one that is quite obvious to the observer of community trends and game design.
    Fod Sparta los wuth, ahrk okaaz gekenlok kruziik himdah, dinok fent kos rozol do daan wah jer do Samos. Ahrk haar do Heracles fent motaad, fah strunmah vonun fent yolein ko yol
    .

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