[TV] Ms. Marvel

[Endus]

This show is moving at a breakneck speed.

It's like entirely new rosters of characters are introduced each episode.

I have zero familiarity with the character in the comics; I'm probably due to re-up to Marvel Unlimited sometime soon and I'll probably run through them then. Was the Red Dagger a "thing", there, though?

If it is, kudos for fitting them in even if it took a bit (might have wanted to have a side-story for about 5 minutes an episode, or after-credits, just to introduce them and their operations in Pakistan before this episode, but that's a really minor pacing concern).

If not, they're SUPER shoehorned in, especially when the older master dies nearly immediately. There's the pacing concern. That's not about what's here, it's just about shifting some things around so it's not just all INFODUMP OH GOD FIGHT ARGH BLARGH I'M DEAD.

Yeah but it doesn't mean the same people are in ever universe?

America is, so far, the only person with no other counterparts but there's perfectly possible other universes were there isn't a tony stark or something.

Pretty sure green goblin states there's no Osborn in the MCU proper

There's no Norman Osborn, Tech Mogul in the MCU proper.

There might be a Norman Osborn: Hot Dog Vendor in the MCU, making a decent wage with his cart in Times Square or something. Could be hilarious to have the MCU Peter grab a chili dog on the swing one day and go "uhhh, what?" I'd get Defoe to come in to be on-screen for three seconds and not give Peter time to go back and check.

We can also presume there's universes where Person A doesn't exist because they got hit by a car in a tragic accident when they were 4 years old or whatever, too. The universes twist and weave and where they diverge, they tend to find a way to echo each other, even without the TVA.

That's not explicitly stated, but it seems pretty obvious to me, at least. That's how variants come to be.

[everydaygamer]

Red Dagger was from the comics but there he was just a vigilante who fought in defense of the people.

[TirielWoW]

I really enjoyed Episode 4, but I need them to stop leaving me on cliffhangers T_T

[JDL49]

I really enjoyed Episode 4, but I need them to stop leaving me on cliffhangers T_T

Good grief that isn't a cliffhanger ! It's just that once they did the first couple of intro eps this was no longer traditional episodic television where you typically come to a pause spot and some of sort of resolution after each episode. Rather it's a limited series and the content is more compact at times.

[Ielenia]

We can also presume there's universes where Person A doesn't exist because they got hit by a car in a tragic accident when they were 4 years old or whatever, too. The universes twist and weave and where they diverge, they tend to find a way to echo each other, even without the TVA.

That's not explicitly stated, but it seems pretty obvious to me, at least. That's how variants come to be.

But they can also literally not exist. Using your "Person A" example, say Howard Stark dies when he's a teenager in universe 1337, before he ever has a son or even met his future wife. That means Tony Stark would simply not exist at all in said universe. It wouldn't be a case of "said person existed, but they died". There would be no records of the character we know as "Tony Stark" ever existing.

An example of that here is WoW's alternate Draenor. Garrosh simply did not exist in that reality because Grommash's wife died before she could get pregnant, if memory serves.

[Endus]

But they can also literally not exist. Using your "Person A" example, say Howard Stark dies when he's a teenager in universe 1337, before he ever has a son or even met his future wife. That means Tony Stark would simply not exist at all in said universe. It wouldn't be a case of "said person existed, but they died". There would be no records of the character we know as "Tony Stark" ever existing.

An example of that here is WoW's alternate Draenor. Garrosh simply did not exist in that reality because Grommash's wife died before she could get pregnant, if memory serves.

From what I recall, the Marvel multiverse tends towards certain patterns, it's not a truly chaotic system, and it's not due to things like the TVA. If Howard Stark died before Tony existed, some other family of Starks might have a kid they named Tony, even if that's not something that happens anywhere else. Certain notes recur, and where Tony Stark truly doesn't exist, you generally still get an Iron Man analog.

The most obvious example of this is the Spider-folks, though there's an additional layer to that nonsense.

This isn't a requirement of multiversal structure, so you're generally correct, but in the Marvel Multiverse specifically, things trend differently.

[Lady Atia]

From what I recall, the Marvel multiverse tends towards certain patterns, it's not a truly chaotic system, and it's not due to things like the TVA. If Howard Stark died before Tony existed, some other family of Starks might have a kid they named Tony, even if that's not something that happens anywhere else. Certain notes recur, and where Tony Stark truly doesn't exist, you generally still get an Iron Man analog.

The most obvious example of this is the Spider-folks, though there's an additional layer to that nonsense.

This isn't a requirement of multiversal structure, so you're generally correct, but in the Marvel Multiverse specifically, things trend differently.

Yeah - that's why I hate the idea of using the DC CW structure for the MCU multiverse where every earth only has a handful of (different) superheroes. Main Earth (or 616 in the case of the MCU) should have EVERY superhero that is available from the comics, and variant earths should have exactly that - variants of the main earth's superheroes, stuff like Spider-Gwen who dies on 616, or genderswapped variants. Regarding the Green Goblin - it's highly possible that Oscorp may not exist, but Norman may still be alive and just not a public personality yet.

[Izthak]

Multiverses, as presented in things like this, are ridiculous. I'm not sure why you're trying to convince yourselves that you're somehow making them more believable when they're beyond unbelievable to begin with. There's just no way that they would have such few changes between them. If Nog the Caveman decided to mate with Tooga instead of Hubi, or even just took a microsecond longer to breed with Tooga, the entire population of the planet would be different with completely different evolutionary paths taken. Worse, if the very first protein strand that formed in the primordial goop spun clockwise instead of counter-clockwise that one time, life may never have formed to begin with. And lifeless, empty voids and barren rocks would be the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of universes in a multiverse.

But not in the MCU, no sir. In the MCU, most universes followed a similar path up until about 10 years ago, give or take. Save for the ones that somehow became animated universes, or universes composed of sentient paint, both of which are totally plausible and believable (but not whatever aspect of them that you're arguing over right now; that goes Too Far™ apparently).

It's one of those things where you just accept the stupidity of it or you don't. Trying to rationalize it is already doomed to failure. I mean, the fact that any universe counts itself as anything other than "1" is ridiculous in and of itself.

[Endus]

Multiverses, as presented in things like this, are ridiculous. I'm not sure why you're trying to convince yourselves that you're somehow making them more believable when they're beyond unbelievable to begin with. There's just no way that they would have such few changes between them. If Nog the Caveman decided to mate with Tooga instead of Hubi, or even just took a microsecond longer to breed with Tooga, the entire population of the planet would be different with completely different evolutionary paths taken. Worse, if the very first protein strand that formed in the primordial goop spun clockwise instead of counter-clockwise that one time, life may never have formed to begin with. And lifeless, empty voids and barren rocks would be the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of universes in a multiverse.

But not in the MCU, no sir. In the MCU, most universes followed a similar path up until about 10 years ago, give or take. Save for the ones that somehow became animated universes, or universes composed of sentient paint, both of which are totally plausible and believable (but not whatever aspect of them that you're arguing over right now; that goes Too Far™ apparently).

It's one of those things where you just accept the stupidity of it or you don't. Trying to rationalize it is already doomed to failure. I mean, the fact that any universe counts itself as anything other than "1" is ridiculous in and of itself.

Because the Marvel Multiverse isn't everything that exists.

Marvel's cosmology extends to the Omniverse, which includes everything. It includes the real world, where I'm typing this right now. It includes DC comics universes. It includes Lord of the Rings. It includes the Dune saga. It includes My Little Pony. And so on. Literally all things.

The Marvel Multiverse is just that one bit that behaves a certain way and is the focus of Marvel comics. And narratively, there's reasons why the Marvel Multiverse is that way; it's intentional design, not random chance.

[TirielWoW]

Good grief that isn't a cliffhanger ! It's just that once they did the first couple of intro eps this was no longer traditional episodic television where you typically come to a pause spot and some of sort of resolution after each episode. Rather it's a limited series and the content is more compact at times.

Listen, I wasn't done watching ok! I need MORE. :-P

[Logwyn]

They have made it clear that inhumans are not going to be used for the forseeable future so that doesn't make sense.

Ms. Marvel isn't an inhuman?

[Necomis]

Ms. Marvel isn't an inhuman?

She is half(?) Djinn based on the show so far.

[Izthak]

Because the Marvel Multiverse isn't everything that exists.

Marvel's cosmology extends to the Omniverse, which includes everything. It includes the real world, where I'm typing this right now. It includes DC comics universes. It includes Lord of the Rings. It includes the Dune saga. It includes My Little Pony. And so on. Literally all things.

The Marvel Multiverse is just that one bit that behaves a certain way and is the focus of Marvel comics. And narratively, there's reasons why the Marvel Multiverse is that way; it's intentional design, not random chance.

I'm well aware of what it is.

But I'm also not one of the people arguing about how someone existing or not-existing in one of the alternate universes doesn't make sense. You people are. And in that context, the entire argument is ridiculous and pointless, because nothing about the MCU's multiverse makes sense. It's all just one "What If?" after another comprised of different takes on the setting by different people who created them with their imaginations. There's absolutely nothing plausible about them beyond "it's all make believe BS by authors and artists."

[everydaygamer]

Is the marvel multiverse not infinite? My understanding of the multiverse concept was that there are infinite universes that account for every possible eventuality which is why some are more drastically different than others.

[JDL49]

Ms. Marvel isn't an inhuman?

Not in the MCU based on what's been disclosed to date. Between the bangle and the Djinn
there is nothing left that being an inhuman would be needed to explain

- - - Updated - - -

Listen, I wasn't done watching ok! I need MORE. :-P

Fair enuff. One thing that crossed my mind that touches on this. By going to Pakistan Kamala is totally removed from
her comfort zone. Her nani's house is the only thing even remotely like a safe place and it is not that close. If nothing
else that makes normal episodic plots near impossible and makes a ramp up in tension feel natural.

[MrLachyG]

did I miss something? how did we go from discussing the show to the Multiverse? might I suggest https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-things-Marvel for all things Multiverse and we can keep this focused on the show?

[Svifnymr]

Yeah but it doesn't mean the same people are in ever universe?

America is, so far, the only person with no other counterparts but there's perfectly possible other universes were there isn't a tony stark or something.

Pretty sure green goblin states there's no Osborn in the MCU proper

Haven't seen it, so might be wrong, but I assume the issue with America was that she had a unique power and was the only one across the multiverse that had it, thus important to the plot. Did they ever actually state that this was uncommon and there aren't a ton of other unique people that are just not important because they don't have that power?

[Snuke]

Not in the MCU based on what's been disclosed to date. Between the bangle and the Djinn
there is nothing left that being an inhuman would be needed to explain

- - - Updated - - -



Fair enuff. One thing that crossed my mind that touches on this. By going to Pakistan Kamala is totally removed from
her comfort zone. Her nani's house is the only thing even remotely like a safe place and it is not that close. If nothing
else that makes normal episodic plots near impossible and makes a ramp up in tension feel natural.

Bangle came off a Kree arm… her being Inhuman explains her ability to use it more than “being from this plane” considering the Djinn can use everything else just fine.

[Ielenia]

From what I recall, the Marvel multiverse tends towards certain patterns, it's not a truly chaotic system, and it's not due to things like the TVA. If Howard Stark died before Tony existed, some other family of Starks might have a kid they named Tony, even if that's not something that happens anywhere else. Certain notes recur, and where Tony Stark truly doesn't exist, you generally still get an Iron Man analog.

The most obvious example of this is the Spider-folks, though there's an additional layer to that nonsense.

This isn't a requirement of multiversal structure, so you're generally correct, but in the Marvel Multiverse specifically, things trend differently.

I think your example goes a bit against your idea.

In the case of your example with Spiderman, we have universes with Peter Parker (such as Miles' and Gwen's) but then we have others that... apparently don't, or they're irrelevant, such as Peni Parker who is of japanese descent with a father that apparently is not Peter Parker, if how she reacts (or does not react) to seeing him in the movie.

And back to the Multiverse of Madness, in that Illuminati universe, Captain America does not exist, and instead we got "Captain Britain" in the form of Captain Carter. And still in that universe, apparently Tony Stark/Iron Man does not exist, as we don't see anything about either entity throughout the movie, even in the flashback after fight against Thanos.

[Snuke]

I think your example goes a bit against your idea.

In the case of your example with Spiderman, we have universes with Peter Parker (such as Miles' and Gwen's) but then we have others that... apparently don't, or they're irrelevant, such as Peni Parker who is of japanese descent with a father that apparently is not Peter Parker, if how she reacts (or does not react) to seeing him in the movie.

And back to the Multiverse of Madness, in that Illuminati universe, Captain America does not exist, and instead we got "Captain Britain" in the form of Captain Carter. And still in that universe, apparently Tony Stark/Iron Man does not exist, as we don't see anything about either entity throughout the movie, even in the flashback after fight against Thanos.

We didn’t see enough to say anything about an Iron Man equivalent.