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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I have to assume the video is talking about early Shadowlands, too. Because today you don't need to grind Torghast, you don't need to go crazy to upgrade things, it doesn't take hours and hours and hours to get basic gear. You get flying just by doing part of the total campaign, you get your two legendaries (one of which will be 291) just from doing Zerith Mortis casually.
    It is an older video, and as I mentioned I haven't played in a long while, so if they addressed this that is actually super cool, because at the time I was considering returning that video was spot on. I would have had a huge checklist of shit to do before I could really play the game.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Let's just say this: I was an average, at best, mythic raider. World 300-500 for most of the last decade. I peaked at U.S. 8 in Cataclysm, which came out in fucking 2010, and that's because most of the top guilds were banned for abusing LFR, which had just come out, for trinket stacking etc.
    That's not average. That's mega top tier.

    I can count on one hand the number of mythic bosses where I've hit enrage while everyone does mechanics perfectly. It's never happened on heroic. I think the curve is pretty good in WoW that you have more than enough gear from just normal playing of the game for your skill level such that you can kill it when you get to it. There is no effective gear wall - there's only a skill wall.
    Enrage is not the only indicator of throughput. The tolerance for mistakes gets higher and higher the better your gear is.

    Generally speaking, the second half of Heroic and the first half of Mythic are not very different from a complexity perspective, but massive numbers of people clear Heroic very early and very, very, very few people clear the first half of Mythic very quickly. Why? Because there is a very steep gear curve. Can you overcome this with skill? Of course, but that doesn't change that it is CLEARLY tuned for gear above what is available day 1 of the raid.

    Also, those "top 100" mirror the top statics which clear Ultimate. WoW has a much higher, exponential curve of "# of guilds who clear X boss" because the gear nerfs the content, but the beginning of the curves look exactly the same among the top groups. I totally agree with the idea that Ultimate holds its difficulty well past that of mythic in WoW, because it's only "nerfed" in later expansions when the ilvl you're synced to raises to something higher than when it came out. In terms of "endgame hard raiding" WoW is much *better* to the "average" raider. Even scrub guilds can kill 3 or so mythic bosses by the end of the tier.
    I think the discussions of difficulty are ultimately kind of pointless. To me, content is generally pretty easy or pretty hard and getting more detailed than that can get into a huge waste of time because at a granular level it becomes extremely subjective.

    I don't think "You can complete these fights after months and months of gearing up" is a terrible interesting model. I don't think that makes things "better" for anyone. I'd rather the bulk of the content simply completable by the average person like it is in FF14 where basically anyone that wants to put an effort forth can clear savage and extreme 100%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzaga View Post
    See



    The guy is an incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest bootlicker.

    Things to do in FF14:
    Get gold or farm lower difficulty content for gear
    farm a thousand rocks to get your gathering gear
    craft the same item a thousand times to get your crafting gear (and do it again for every crafting job)
    level up your crafting so you can materia meld your gear
    In FF14, you can either buy the gear with Gil or you can just.... run the normal raid and extremes 3 times, which is how many lockouts you have before Savage comes out anyway. Everything else you are talking about is not necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Dude... you are already being dishonest by leaving out the time it requires to get to max level in FFXIV.
    All the time it takes to get to that point is the time you need to invest into torghast or dungeons to be raid-ready.
    Except you need to do that once and you need to do the chores in WoW during every patch.

    And I still think you don't grasp the concept of weekly rewards and that it means you have absolutely *nothing* to gain from playing 24/7 in WoW.
    WoW is a game you play for a few hours a week and log out.
    All the things you mentioned are done in a single fucking day, maybe 2 at most.
    I can't really engage with this level of dishonesty. It's simply a lie at this point because nobody could be so mistaken as to think that in WoW a season starts and you are progressing in mythic by putting in 3 hours per week. Why lie about this? Such a weird thing to lie about.

    And what do you think farming gil and doing daily dungeons is? It's the same-fucking-thing. Lol.
    Again, you don't just have Gil. I don't spend my Gil on *anything* and I only farm dungeons when I need at the start of an expansion. I have no Gil income, if I want gil, I have to play hours upon hours upon hours, or do the normal raid every week, or the alliance raid every week.
    But yes, I can get gear from dungeons, but I have to do them like 50 times to gear up completely (for Savage) or do hunt-trains.
    I can also run 50 Mythic + dungeons and I'm completely geared as well. Mythic quality. Don't even have to touch the raids.
    Clearing the normal raid and extremes for a couple of weeks is not a big deal, especially because you can do it three times before you even do savage week 1.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    In FF14, you can either buy the gear with Gil or you can just.... run the normal raid and extremes 3 times, which is how many lockouts you have before Savage comes out anyway. Everything else you are talking about is not necessary.
    And then you clear savage instantly? Or do you not farm the earlier bosses for weeks to get better gear?
    What do you do in wow?
    You can also do mythic runs, gear up a bit, clear normal and heroic, and go into mythic.

    But in both games, most people can't do it.
    Savage raiding isn't Mythic raiding. Mythic is designed for people who want WoW to be *the* game, not *a* game.
    If you want to compare Savage with WoW, use heroic raiding.

    How is running normal raid and extremes (one of which is on a weekly lockout) different from running 1 M+ dungeon and normal raid in WoW (which one of which is also on a weekly lock-out.)
    Guilds literally clear the normal raid on the first day every patch. And I don't even mean good guilds... just your everyday raider. They don't even do it for upgrades, they do it just because, as most players will already have better gear from the last patch.
    Next patch, if I were a raiding player, I wouldn't have to have normal raid *at all*. What will it drop... 272 or something? I'm already above that by playing 1-4 M+ every week and doing the normal raid once. How the heck is WoW designed to be my "only game" like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post


    Except you need to do that once and you need to do the chores in WoW during every patch.



    I can't really engage with this level of dishonesty. It's simply a lie at this point because nobody could be so mistaken as to think that in WoW a season starts and you are progressing in mythic by putting in 3 hours per week. Why lie about this? Such a weird thing to lie about.



    Clearing the normal raid and extremes for a couple of weeks is not a big deal, especially because you can do it three times before you even do savage week 1.

    ... you are obviously *not* playing WoW or haven't been since years. So why do you say I'm lying? You don't even *know* how shit is done these days because you have no idea about the game and how the systems work.
    Wtf.
    You are, at the start of every single season, outgearing normal raids. You start *gearing* in heroic raids and M+, which is Savage Raiding in FFXIV.
    In 3 weeks, by M+ alone, you will already have enough gear to start progressing Mythic raids without being completely undergeared.
    You are getting 2 fucking heroic-raid quality items every single run. (-3 itemlevel, which is nothing) Every single run, for 5 players.
    And 1 guarantee mythic raid quality item for every player. How long do you think it takes to gear up for mythic raiding before only mythic and weekly lockout gear will be an upgrade for you?

    You are spitting absolutely and entirely nonsense and you are very, very ill-informed about WoW progress raiding or raiding in general or even gear. You have *not* played the game since forever. Pretending you actually now what you are talking about only makes you look silly and you should really stop digging your grave even deeper.

    I didn't even mention Valor upgrading yet, lmao. That will let you upgrade *above* (95% of) heroic raid gear.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-24 at 06:50 PM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    It is an older video, and as I mentioned I haven't played in a long while, so if they addressed this that is actually super cool, because at the time I was considering returning that video was spot on. I would have had a huge checklist of shit to do before I could really play the game.
    And see, this is what I mean by WoW having a bit of an information gap.

    A lot of things just aren't clear unless you're out there engaging with out-of-game sources. Does anyone tell new players that a set of mats for a 291 legendary are on a vendor in ZM? Or that your second legendary is free from finishing the ZM story? That between legendary items, a crafted item, and loot or BoE's from ZM you can be ready to hit M+ immediately? That you can get 4pc tier pretty easily from the Crucible - even without touching raiding?

    If a new player doesn't know any of this - or gets outdated information - they might spend weeks doing inefficient things. I had people complaining that the Maw was taking too long, for example. Why are they even in the Maw? Because no one told them they could skip all that.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    And then you clear savage instantly? Or do you not farm the earlier bosses for weeks to get better gear?
    What do you do in wow?
    You can also do mythic runs, gear up a bit, clear normal and heroic, and go into mythic.
    1. Even if you had to clear normal every week, that takes less than an hour when you have it on farm.
    2. You can clear normal 3 times before you set foot into savage on its first week. It only takes 3-4 clears to be done with normal.

    But in both games, most people can't do it.
    Savage raiding isn't Mythic raiding. Mythic is designed for people who want WoW to be *the* game, not *a* game.
    If you want to compare Savage with WoW, use heroic raiding.

    How is running normal raid and extremes (one of which is on a weekly lockout) different from running 1 M+ dungeon and normal raid in WoW (which one of which is also on a weekly lock-out.)
    Because it's faster and you need to do it far fewer times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    ... you are obviously *not* playing WoW or haven't been since years. So why do you say I'm lying? You don't even *know* how shit is done these days because you have no idea about the game.
    Wtf.
    I know that nobody is progression mythic raiding with 3 hours of game time per week from week 1. It's a comical lie.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The gear wall in WoW is an overused myth. Everything is killable week 1 with gear accessible before stepping into the raid. Only a handful of guilds will be able to do that, but every time there's a "mathematically impossible" boss, guilds prove it wrong. Gear in WoW serves to nerf content, not as a wall against it.
    It's funny that both world first leaders disagree with you on that.

    Or did you miss the 200+ splits they did this tier? Idk man.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I know that nobody is progression mythic raiding with 3 hours of game time per week from week 1. It's a comical lie.
    Strawman? Goalpost moving?
    You went from "WoW only wants you to play it and nothing else" to "there is no one that can play Mythic without playing a lot" to "no one is progressing week 1 mythic raiding without playing a lot" and most likely soon "no one is world-first raiding day 1 without playing a lot".

    Even though I started this whole discussion with "The only thing that requires some kind of prep is mythic raiding", lol.

    You must be confusing the discussion with someone else.
    I said WoW is not designed around you playing only it. That is all.
    I explicitly said that Mythic raiding isn't Savage Raiding. Savage raiding is basically Heroic Raiding.
    Both require very little effort to gear up towards, and are roughly the same difficulty. Both difficulties are of the type where "if you did play this game for a bit, you can immediatly jump into it"

    Why do you even compare FFXIV Savage raiding with mythic raiding?
    It's a joke (the comparison)
    FFXIV doesn't have anything designed like that.
    If FFXIV end game content were normal raids, you would be comparing it to mythic as well?
    If FFXIV would add another difficulty for hardcore players, it would be the exact same thing, but FFXIV simply doesn't have it. Even Ultimate isn't it. It doesn't have anything for hardcore players that want difficult content like WoW mythic raiding.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    1. Even if you had to clear normal every week, that takes less than an hour when you have it on farm.
    2. You can clear normal 3 times before you set foot into savage on its first week. It only takes 3-4 clears to be done with normal.
    I literally don't even have to set foot into normal in either games. Neither for WoW mythic/heroic raiding nor FFXIV savage raiding. What's your argument here. You are talking about a gearing process that doesn't exist.
    In both games you outgear that content every patch after the first - and only then as well.
    And neither games did require me to play more than ~1-3 hours per week for that to happen.

    I can't express enough how M+ will take you 30-1h and give you heroic raiding gear, both guaranteed and plenty randomly as well.
    If you spend 15 minutes doing a dungeon every day in FFXIV until tomestone cap, you can also do 2-3 mythic+ dungeons using the same amount of gametime and get on average *more* and *better* gear (relatively to each game's way of gearing up)
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-24 at 07:12 PM.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Strawman? Goalpost moving?
    You went from "WoW only wants you to play it and nothing else" to "there is no one that can play Mythic without playing a lot" to "no one is progressing week 1 mythic raiding without playing a lot" and most likely soon "no one is world-first raiding day 1 without playing a lot".

    Even though I started this whole discussion with "The only thing that requires some kind of prep is mythic raiding", lol.

    You must be confusing the discussion with someone else.
    I said WoW is not designed around you playing only it. That is all.
    I explicitly said that Mythic raiding isn't Savage Raiding. Savage raiding is basically Heroic Raiding.
    Both require very little effort to gear up towards, and are roughly the same difficulty. Both difficulties are of the type where "if you did play this game for a bit, you can immediatly jump into it"

    Why do you even compare FFXIV Savage raiding with mythic raiding?
    It's a joke (the comparison)
    FFXIV doesn't have anything designed like that.
    If FFXIV end game content were normal raids, you would be comparing it to mythic as well?
    If FFXIV would add another difficulty for hardcore players, it would be the exact same thing, but FFXIV simply doesn't have it. Even Ultimate isn't it. It doesn't have anything for hardcore players that want difficult content like WoW mythic raiding.

    I literally don't even have to set foot into normal in either games. Neither for WoW mythic/heroic raiding nor FFXIV savage raiding. What's your argument here. You are talking about a gearing process that doesn't exist.
    In both games you outgear that content every patch after the first - and only then as well.
    And neither games did require me to play more than ~1-3 hours per week for that to happen.

    I can't express enough how M+ will take you 30-1h and give you heroic raiding gear, both guaranteed and plenty randomly as well.
    If you spend 15 minutes doing a dungeon every day in FFXIV until tomestone cap, you can also do 2-3 mythic+ dungeons using the same amount of gametime and get on average *more* and *better* gear (relatively to each game's way of gearing up)
    You talk about mythic, so I match your conversation, and then you whine that we are talking about mythic. I'm done with your argumentative debate lord garbage.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is just false. The amount of content in FF14 is comparable if not superior. We get a major patch every 3-4 months, while wow struggles to hit a major patch every 8 months.
    1 wow major patch is about the same as 5 FF14 major patches. So no FF14 does not do more.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You talk about mythic, so I match your conversation, and then you whine that we are talking about mythic. I'm done with your argumentative debate lord garbage.
    Hahahaha, when you can't win, just make some shit up and pretend the other person is doing it!

    "
    I then said.
    "



    After this you pretended you didn't say all this:



    ""



    then you switched goal posts. Remember it was all about "wow wants you to be the *only* game you are playing" is what you said.
    Even though there is hardly *anything* in WoW that gets you something worthwhile from playing a lot. It's all tied to weekly rewards, which require a few hours per week.


    ""



    You are unable to follow a proper discussion. You are a weird guy.
    And yes, we aren't talking about the same point or thing... because you kept changing it in absolutely every single freaking post.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-24 at 07:38 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Hahahaha, when you can't win, just make some shit up and pretend the other person is doing it!
    YOU kept talking about mythic so I brought the conversation to that. If you want to talk about how WoW tries to be a complete hobby for the average player, I can.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    1 wow major patch is about the same as 5 FF14 major patches. So no FF14 does not do more.
    One wow patch has 5 dungeons and 25 raid bosses?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    And yes, we aren't talking about the same point or thing... because you kept changing it in absolutely every single freaking post.
    It's real easy to create a narrative when you leave out some of the stuff you said. The very first quote you attributed to me was you responding to a point about mythic raids, and you are acting like it was unreasonable for me to say "He responded to a point about mythic raids, he must be talking about mythic raids". Debate lord trash.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    YOU kept talking about mythic so I brought the conversation to that. If you want to talk about how WoW tries to be a complete hobby for the average player, I can.

    - - - Updated - - -



    One wow patch has 5 dungeons and 25 raid bosses?

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's real easy to create a narrative when you leave out some of the stuff you said. The very first quote you attributed to me was you responding to a point about mythic raids, and you are acting like it was unreasonable for me to say "He responded to a point about mythic raids, he must be talking about mythic raids". Debate lord trash.
    2 whole FF14 expansions COMBINED dont even have 25 raid bosses. Not even gonna mention that "raids" in FF14 are just a bunch of shitty circular platforms, and sometimes a corridor between them if you're doing the "fancy" alliance raids

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's real easy to create a narrative when you leave out some of the stuff you said. The very first quote you attributed to me was you responding to a point about mythic raids, and you are acting like it was unreasonable for me to say "He responded to a point about mythic raids, he must be talking about mythic raids". Debate lord trash.
    WTF are you even talking about, the very first point and narrative I made was

    "THE ONLY THING THAT REQUIRES SOME TIME OF GAMETIME IS MYTHIC RAIDING. That doesn't mean the game is *designed* around the whole thing and that WoW wants you to be the only game you play."

    You then proceeded to tell me it's impossible to even ENTER MYTHIC RAIDING by playing 3hours a week.
    Then, after realising what kind of *BULLSHIT* you just said you went moved the goalpost to "you won't be raiding day 1/week one mythic with just 3 hours a week".

    YES YOU WON'T BECAUSE AS I SAID; THE ONLY THING THAT REQUIRES SOME TIME OF GAMETIME IS MYTHIC RAIDING

    DURRR..


    I'm not creating a narrative, I'm just staying true to my reasoning, while you are not and are now too deep in to admit it because it would make you look like an idiot.

    The thing however is. SAVAGE RAIDING IS NOT MYTHIC RAIDING. SAVAGE IS HEROIC RAIDING. (which I kept saying like 5 fucking times or something) And Heroic raiding doesn't require more than 3h ours a week. In fact, It's likely I won't even get upgrades from Heroic raiding if I do that. It's stuff I outgear by the time I progress through it with average players which means the natural progress to mythic doesn't require more than 3-hours a week to play.

    caps to make you realize shit.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-24 at 07:50 PM.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzaga View Post
    2 whole FF14 expansions COMBINED dont even have 25 raid bosses. Not even gonna mention that "raids" in FF14 are just a bunch of shitty circular platforms, and sometimes a corridor between them if you're doing the "fancy" alliance raids
    Each expansion has more than 30 raid bosses. That's a fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    WTF are you even talking about, the very first point and narrative I made was

    "THE ONLY THING THAT REQUIRES SOME TIME OF GAMETIME IS MYTHIC RAIDING. That doesn't mean the game is *designed* around the whole thing and that WoW want's you to be the only game you play."

    I'm not creating a narrative, I'm just staying true to my reasoning, while you are not and are now too deep in to admit it because it would make you look like an idiot.
    Your reasoning is based on constantly conflating unrelated points and now it is selectively screen grabbing quotes and leaving out the ones that don't fit your narrative.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Your reasoning is based on constantly conflating unrelated points and now it is selectively screen grabbing quotes and leaving out the ones that don't fit your narrative.
    Yeah okay, sure, whatever. lol.
    "no, you".
    Dishonest freak... obviously biased to the point of no return with no reasoning left.
    You wouldn't be able to "prove" what you just said even if you tried.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-24 at 08:05 PM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    And see, this is what I mean by WoW having a bit of an information gap.
    Are you kidding me? There are so many systems in FFXIV where I have no fucking clue how they work until a random person is like "oh hey, what do you think of X?" Like, I remember leveling the Firmament, had no clue what it was for, was leveling my gatherers "normally" and someone is like......"uh, why aren't you leveling in the Firmament?"

    There's whole systems which I just didn't know about. I didn't know about desynthesis until I hit 90. I didn't know I could meld my own gear til 90. Etc, etc.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Are you kidding me? There are so many systems in FFXIV where I have no fucking clue how they work until a random person is like "oh hey, what do you think of X?" Like, I remember leveling the Firmament, had no clue what it was for, was leveling my gatherers "normally" and someone is like......"uh, why aren't you leveling in the Firmament?"

    There's whole systems which I just didn't know about. I didn't know about desynthesis until I hit 90. I didn't know I could meld my own gear til 90. Etc, etc.
    I'm fairly sure that systems like that in XIV all have the little in-game tutorials that pop up once they're relevant to you. And things like Firmament and whatnot all have the little plus-sign quests leading into them.

    That's not to say it's perfect, but it's better than a lot of the limited information in WoW regarding a wide array of systems.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Yeah okay, sure, whatever. lol.
    "no, you".
    Dishonest freak... obviously biased to the point of no return with no reasoning left.
    You wouldn't be able to "prove" what you just said even if you tried.
    Yeah, very dishonest to talk about mythic when you kept talking about mythic and never explicitly changed the subject.

    1. You easily fall behind for an extended period of time if you take a break.
    2. Constant time gating of new content.
    3. Lots of daily/weekly chores to keep up with to stay current.
    4. Rapid deprecation of old content to push players into only the newest content.
    5. Consistently entices players back with promises of change being around the corner.
    6. A power progression system that makes hard-stops and end-goals extremely difficult to pinpoint in psychologically satisfying ways.
    7. Content scaling systems that provide incrementally harder difficulties.

    Am I describing a predatory mobile game or am I describing WoW?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yeah, very dishonest to talk about mythic when you kept talking about mythic and never explicitly changed the subject.

    1. You easily fall behind for an extended period of time if you take a break.
    2. Constant time gating of new content.
    3. Lots of daily/weekly chores to keep up with to stay current.
    4. Rapid deprecation of old content to push players into only the newest content.
    5. Consistently entices players back with promises of change being around the corner.
    6. A power progression system that makes hard-stops and end-goals extremely difficult to pinpoint in psychologically satisfying ways.
    7. Content scaling systems that provide incrementally harder difficulties.

    Am I describing a predatory mobile game or am I describing WoW?
    Again, much of this is dishonest, false, or not materially different from XIV or any other MMO.

    Find me an MMO that *doesn't* time gate something, or have newer content with better rewards than older content. Or a game that doesn't try to "entice" people (the hell does this even mean, really?) And we've been over the "lots of daily chores" thing, which is patently false.

    Also, how is #7 even a bad thing? M+ is wildly popular, and fairly fun/satisfying.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Again, much of this is dishonest, false, or not materially different from XIV or any other MMO.

    Find me an MMO that *doesn't* time gate something, or have newer content with better rewards than older content. Or a game that doesn't try to "entice" people (the hell does this even mean, really?) And we've been over the "lots of daily chores" thing, which is patently false.

    Also, how is #7 even a bad thing? M+ is wildly popular, and fairly fun/satisfying.
    FF14 doesn't time gate things the way WoW does. Not even close.

    I did not list "new content with better rewards".

    I did not list "entices people" broadly.

    We just had three expansions in a row that were primarily criticized heavily for the chores, such a Torghast and AP.

    The issue is not that no other game does any of these things. Destiny 2 is one of my favorite games and they looooooove their relentless time gates. However, the picture all these design decisions create taken together is very clear.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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