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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    We don’t know if the OP has the “it only counts if it’s a brick wall to bash my face into” mental illness. We shouldn’t make assumptions. Lots of raiders who do savage also enjoy the alliance raids.
    Ok, I think that's taking it a step to far, Nine. Some people enjoy that style of gameplay. Dark Souls and Elden Ring are big games just because there is that player base that likes throwing themselves into something until they come out the victor. If that's their jam, that's perfectly ok.

    The problem comes when people dismiss easier content just because 'it's not hard core enough', which OP didn't do. You can lay that blame at others feet.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The illness isn't liking that. The illness is when you are driven to a really deranged state where you build your entire identity around that and start trying to make weird, cringey arguments like "IT'S NOT REALLY RAIDING IF ITS NOT MYTHIC" because anyone else having fun is a threat to your ego.
    Oh yeah no I just like Mythic Raiding b/c i haven't really found something else in gaming that gives me the satisfaction of tackling an enormously challenging boss with 19 other people! I don't really care what anybody else does with their time so long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to have fun or my time.
    Be sincere; be brief; be seated

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    Ok, I think that's taking it a step to far, Nine. Some people enjoy that style of gameplay. Dark Souls and Elden Ring are big games just because there is that player base that likes throwing themselves into something until they come out the victor. If that's their jam, that's perfectly ok.

    The problem comes when people dismiss easier content just because 'it's not hard core enough', which OP didn't do. You can lay that blame at others feet.
    I spend most of my gaming time doing Souls game challenge runs. I love very difficult games like that. However, I don't build my whole identity around the and have some weird ego fit when someone doesn't enjoy that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJewishMerp View Post
    Oh yeah no I just like Mythic Raiding b/c i haven't really found something else in gaming that gives me the satisfaction of tackling an enormously challenging boss with 19 other people! I don't really care what anybody else does with their time so long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to have fun or my time.
    I like extremely challenging content too, but I'm at a point where I get really turned off by group sizes that large because of how often they turn into waiting for the worst player to do things right. The super-hard content in Destiny 2 is more up my alley these days, with 6 man being the largest group size.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJewishMerp View Post
    Hiii. I do really love Mythic raiding in WoW. Hundreds of pulls don't really put me off b/c I find the reward super gratifying!
    Savage tiers usually take competent guilds a week or two to clear, but Ultimates can take months of practice before most guilds have a chance to clear. If you can sit through FFXIV's MSQ, I think you'll enjoy savage and Ultimate raiding (I'd say savage is a bit easier than mythic, with ultimate being harder than mythic) if you can accept that FFXIV expansions offer less individual fights than your average WoW expansion will.

    Savage can keep you entertained for a bit, but you can get some good mileage out of an Ultimate clear.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Celvira View Post
    Savage tiers usually take competent guilds a week or two to clear, but Ultimates can take months of practice before most guilds have a chance to clear. If you can sit through FFXIV's MSQ, I think you'll enjoy savage and Ultimate raiding (I'd say savage is a bit easier than mythic, with ultimate being harder than mythic) if you can accept that FFXIV expansions offer less individual fights than your average WoW expansion will.

    Savage can keep you entertained for a bit, but you can get some good mileage out of an Ultimate clear.
    Another important distinction to make is that FF14 raids tend to have longer boss fights and way, way, way less downtime. There is no trash and no running back from your corpse.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJewishMerp View Post
    Oh yeah no I just like Mythic Raiding b/c i haven't really found something else in gaming that gives me the satisfaction of tackling an enormously challenging boss with 19 other people! I don't really care what anybody else does with their time so long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to have fun or my time.
    14 doesn't have that, at least not with 19 other people, but even then the fights are actually quite enjoyable in fighting them together with your group of 8. What's more unique about 14 in this respect that the fact that you can increase the difficulty as needed. Unlike WoW, where there's no real system to go make old content harder, 14 has a system you can implement that allows you to fight any content in the game at the barest level of power possible. While it's not a complete one to one with the time old content was released, it's about as close as you can get.

    I've actually seen some people do a lot of older content like that recently and it took them a few weeks to clear some of the older bosses when they're restricted to the lowest level of gear possible without any bonuses/buffs from dying that 14 normally gives you in more modern raid content.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    oh yeah,these wow addons trivialize those encounters so much,its why everyone clears mythic week 1 so easy and fast /facepalm

    this addons meme is so funny,yeah some of them are strong,but the worst addons were broken years ago,time to get up to date

    also no addon is gonna beat the boss for you,the days of lines showing you where to stand like in wod are gone,and ironicaly EVEN THEN PEOPLE FAILED
    Clear rate week 1 is a bit harder because WoW raid are absurdly gatekept by item level to the point that the world first guilds had to do triple digit splitruns to get enough ilvl to meet the DPS check. Lol. Lmao.

    And there is unironically a bigger "addons take the wheel for me" culture. Blizzard literally balances their raid encounters around that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Yeah. Nine's entire shtick is proselytizing for FF14 while writing off WoW's equivalent or closest fascimile as bad. Good on you for calling him out on praising the LFR equivalent.
    Val literally does the reverse of that. Lmao.


    Also too bad Alliance raids are infinitely more complex than LFR. Sure, that might not mean much, but the LFR-comparison has always been silly. WoW's LFR is difficult only because you have to deal with half a raid that doesn't want to be there and another half that literally isn't even there. Alliance raids are less punishing because it's easier to recover, but they are inherently more complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is just false. The amount of content in FF14 is comparable if not superior. We get a major patch every 3-4 months, while wow struggles to hit a major patch every 8 months.
    The thing here is, and this is important to mention: yes, FFXIV has more varied content by far. WoW has raids, mythic dungeons and farming 0.01% drop rate mount and pet recolors. But the OP isn't asking about all content. In fact, he's very specifically excluding all non-raid content. And yes, WoW caters far more to the RAID RAID RAID mentality. (Which is a massive detriment in my opinion, but it isn't my thread.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    OP's question is basically "Can I enjoy myself raidlogging not bothering with anything else?" The answer is yes.

    MMOC dweebs: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WoW vs. FFXIV! Let's challenge the fucking mods! REEEEEEE
    Myeah it got dragged into a discussion about what constitutes "re3l contentz" and that's where the problem pops up. The OP just wants to know if there's a lot of relevant raid stuff compared to, I imagine, WoW, and the answer is no.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Myeah it got dragged into a discussion about what constitutes "re3l contentz" and that's where the problem pops up. The OP just wants to know if there's a lot of relevant raid stuff compared to, I imagine, WoW, and the answer is no.
    There are just as many bosses as you get in WoW. It's just structured differently, and notably doesn't deprecate content the way WoW does.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    In a nine month period, FF14 can get 8 normal/savage bosses, 3 extreme trials, and a 4 boss alliance raid. That's 15 bosses.
    You get item level increase with ever 4 boss savage raid, which will drop the max level gear. Meanwhile Alliance raid is for casuals and will drop drop gear 10 level below that limit.

    You either do savage or you do alliance raid, there is no need to do both and overall you can simply upgrade crafted gear to the same level as alliance raid gear.

    There is pretty much zero reason to do any ex trial beside going for the mount series of the expansion (what is the same, re-colored mount for each ex trial with a different bonus mount, when you collect all of the), but not really for the drops, especially not when you do savage raid, what will drop far superior equipment and you can again just use crafted gear and upgrade it, which will be on par or better than ex trial gear.

    When you count FF14 bosses like this, you would have to count WoW for each difficulty.

    For overview:

    When for example new max level gear would be 530 then:

    Savage would drop 530.
    Normal version would drop 510, can't upgrade it.
    Crafting gear would be 510 and could be upgraded with the alliance raid patch to 520.
    Alliance raid gear would be 520, can't upgrade it and comes out ~4 months after Savage/normal.
    Ex trial gear would likely be 500, 510 or 520 (with 500 being the former max level gear) and 520 soonest the time alliance raid comes out.
    And then you get the tomestone gear (weekly limit, you need a few monthes to get a full set for one role thanks to that), which would be 520 and you could upgrade it with savage drops, hunting grind or later with alliance raid drops (one drop per week).

    Obviously: when you do savage there is near to no reason to do anything else. It's the fastest and earliest way to get max level gear and everything else is at best on par or worse and you will get it much later.

    As said: if you want to compare it like that, you would have to take the difficulties of WoW raids, becaue there too: if you do mythic, there is no need to heroic, normal, lfg. If you do heroic, no need to do normal and lfg. And so on.

    Regarding difficulty:

    Normal raid in FF14 (8ppl) = LFG.
    Savage raid in FF14 (8ppl) = heroic
    Ultimate (8ppl) = mythic (but in the around 9 years of the game there are only 4 ultimate boss fights)
    Ex Trial (8ppl) = Normal.
    Alliance raid (24ppl) = LFG (per se easier even easier than normal raid, but 24 ppl make it equally 'hard', because you got many people who are just terrible and love to ignore everything - but overall you can mostly just pull them through - if it's not the healers).
    Last edited by Miriamel105; 2022-06-16 at 12:50 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Clear rate week 1 is a bit harder because WoW raid are absurdly gatekept by item level to the point that the world first guilds had to do triple digit splitruns to get enough ilvl to meet the DPS check. Lol. Lmao.

    And there is unironically a bigger "addons take the wheel for me" culture. Blizzard literally balances their raid encounters around that.
    i dont disagree with that but my point is that people love to meme that addons trivialize stuff or they play for you,but that clearly isnt the case considering most people dont even clear half of a mythic raid months down the line

    i seen people fail miserably in wod,when addons were REALLY op,1 buton iskar,archi lines,a line showing you where to stand on kormrok etc

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    You get item level increase with ever 4 boss savage raid, which will drop the max level gear. Meanwhile Alliance raid is for casuals and will drop drop gear 10 level below that limit.

    You either do savage or you do alliance raid, there is no need to do both and overall you can simply upgrade crafted gear to the same level as alliance raid gear.
    Everyone I play with runs both extensively.

    There is pretty much zero reason to do any ex trial beside going for the mount series of the expansion (what is the same, re-colored mount for each ex trial with a different bonus mount, when you collect all of the), but not really for the drops, especially not when you do savage raid, what will drop far superior equipment and you can again just use crafted gear and upgrade it, which will be on par or better than ex trial gear.
    Everyone I play with runs extreme trials extensively.

    When you count FF14 bosses like this, you would have to count WoW for each difficulty.
    No, you wouldn't.

    For overview:

    When for example new max level gear would be 530 then:

    Savage would drop 530.
    Normal version would drop 510, can't upgrade it.
    Crafting gear would be 510 and could be upgraded with the alliance raid patch to 520.
    Alliance raid gear would be 520, can't upgrade it and comes out ~4 months after Savage/normal.
    Ex trial gear would likely be 500, 510 or 520 (with 500 being the former max level gear) and 520 soonest the time alliance raid comes out.
    And then you get the tomestone gear (weekly limit, you need a few monthes to get a full set for one role thanks to that), which would be 520 and you could upgrade it with savage drops, hunting grind or later with alliance raid drops (one drop per week).

    Obviously: when you do savage there is near to no reason to do anything else. It's the fastest and earliest way to get max level gear and everything else is at best on par or worse and you will get it much later.

    As said: if you want to compare it like that, you would have to take the difficulties of WoW raids, becaue there too: if you do mythic, there is no need to heroic, normal, lfg. If you do heroic, no need to do normal and lfg. And so on.
    The big problem with your "logic" here is it makes two completely bogus assumptions:

    1. That Savage is infinitely farmable so there is no need to do other content to fill out slots or upgrade sets for alt jobs. This is obviously false.
    2. That the only reason to do content is for upgrades. This is also false.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    i dont disagree with that but my point is that people love to meme that addons trivialize stuff or they play for you,but that clearly isnt the case considering most people dont even clear half of a mythic raid months down the line

    i seen people fail miserably in wod,when addons were REALLY op,1 buton iskar,archi lines,a line showing you where to stand on kormrok etc
    Well, similarly, P2W doesn't literally instantly clear content for you either. It still plays a major part though, only remotely staved off by the fact that the raid encounter designers and devs are in a constant arms race with addon developers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There are just as many bosses as you get in WoW. It's just structured differently, and notably doesn't deprecate content the way WoW does.
    Relevant ones? I don't know. I would count the 4 savage bosses, the extremes and the ultimates.

    But if you want to strain it, you could always min-ilvl no echo sync old content. It might not be as difficult as it was when it was released, but it might still be a good challenge. I think that while FFXIV isn't nearly as much of a raiding focused game as WoW is, that is a pretty good strength to have. Especially when it's just one button away, and not tied to some special event.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    i dont disagree with that but my point is that people love to meme that addons trivialize stuff or they play for you,but that clearly isnt the case considering most people dont even clear half of a mythic raid months down the line

    i seen people fail miserably in wod,when addons were REALLY op,1 buton iskar,archi lines,a line showing you where to stand on kormrok etc
    Mythic has a series of walls around it that have nothing to do with mechanical complexity. The groups are absurdly large. The need for everyone to have alts is a problem. The time investment to stay caught up is rough, especially with alts. The need to run M+ obsessively to keep caught up on ilvl early on is a problem. The huge arbitrary gear barriers Blizzard creates block people. There are more, but I think you get the point, which is that you can't appeal to how many people do an activity when you make the activity so absurdly difficult to even involve yourself in.

    And it's just a fact that addons straight up negate entire mechanics and playing without addons at a high level is virtually impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Relevant ones? I don't know. I would count the 4 savage bosses, the extremes and the ultimates.

    But if you want to strain it, you could always min-ilvl no echo sync old content. It might not be as difficult as it was when it was released, but it might still be a good challenge. I think that while FFXIV isn't nearly as much of a raiding focused game as WoW is, that is a pretty good strength to have. Especially when it's just one button away, and not tied to some special event.
    This would be an expansion:
    12 savage bosses
    2 ultimates
    8 extreme trials
    12 alliance aid bosses

    That's 34 bosses, absolutely comparable to wow.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Mythic has a series of walls around it that have nothing to do with mechanical complexity. The groups are absurdly large. The need for everyone to have alts is a problem. The time investment to stay caught up is rough, especially with alts. The need to run M+ obsessively to keep caught up on ilvl early on is a problem. The huge arbitrary gear barriers Blizzard creates block people. There are more, but I think you get the point, which is that you can't appeal to how many people do an activity when you make the activity so absurdly difficult to even involve yourself in.

    And it's just a fact that addons straight up negate entire mechanics and playing without addons at a high level is virtually impossible.

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    This would be an expansion:
    12 savage bosses
    2 ultimates
    8 extreme trials
    12 alliance aid bosses

    That's 34 bosses, absolutely comparable to wow.
    I get what you mean, but only 4 savage bosses and 1 or 2 extreme trials are relevant at a time. Ultimates I would consider as being almost always relevant, even UWU. Unless you consider Castle Nathria still relevant. (Well, I guess it is now with that new raid+ system lmao)

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I get what you mean, but only 4 savage bosses and 1 or 2 extreme trials are relevant at a time. Ultimates I would consider as being almost always relevant, even UWU. Unless you consider Castle Nathria still relevant. (Well, I guess it is now with that new raid+ system lmao)
    "Relevant" doesn't mean anything though. Even if we define it as "That which drops upgrades for CE players", anyone that plays multiple jobs is going to find upgrades in all of the content I listed (except ultimates obviously) because the savage isn't always farmable.

    But the reality is that a lot of the time Im running the content to play with friends and have fun, not because there is an upgrade for me. So, what does that say about relevance?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "Relevant" doesn't mean anything though. Even if we define it as "That which drops upgrades for CE players", anyone that plays multiple jobs is going to find upgrades in all of the content I listed (except ultimates obviously) because the savage isn't always farmable.

    But the reality is that a lot of the time Im running the content to play with friends and have fun, not because there is an upgrade for me. So, what does that say about relevance?
    Relevant in this context would be "What is a player who is going to jump into endgame PvE content going to gravitate to?" In WoW, it's the most current raid. I would imagine it's the same in XIV.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Mythic has a series of walls around it that have nothing to do with mechanical complexity. The groups are absurdly large. The need for everyone to have alts is a problem. The time investment to stay caught up is rough, especially with alts. The need to run M+ obsessively to keep caught up on ilvl early on is a problem. The huge arbitrary gear barriers Blizzard creates block people. There are more, but I think you get the point, which is that you can't appeal to how many people do an activity when you make the activity so absurdly difficult to even involve yourself in.

    And it's just a fact that addons straight up negate entire mechanics and playing without addons at a high level is virtually impossible.
    Agree,its why i stoped playing in sl and just played classic for fun,but i really really disagree with the addons,all those op addons didnt help some people not fail,and btw,i raided with no combat addons until mop,i tanked lk 25hc with just reccount,i did all of cataclysm 25hc with no addons,everything was done with raid leader callouts or me just knowing mecanics from visual or sound ques

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Relevant in this context would be "What is a player who is going to jump into endgame PvE content going to gravitate to?" In WoW, it's the most current raid. I would imagine it's the same in XIV.
    And if they are going to do that they probably need to run all of the above to get geared up, and then if they want to gear up multiple jobs they will almost certainly need to keep doing that content, not just the savages.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    An expansion will have the following:

    12 normal/savage raid bosses.
    12-15 Alliance raid bosses.
    7-9 Trial bosses.
    1-2 Ultimate raids.

    That's about 35 bosses per expansion, completely comparable with WoW.
    This. People coming from WoW usually don't understand that the game is just structured differently. They don't have 6 month patches they have about 3 month patches which are divided into 90 day content drops. In the span of a 6 month WoW patch, FF will have added about the same number of bosses as WoW does, except FF does it gradually and across different content types. With the added bonus that FF also adds other types of content with their patches, not just raid bosses.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-06-16 at 01:37 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJewishMerp View Post
    Basically the title. I don't care about the story, and the more casual content like housing, RP, and glamour really doesn't interest me. I literally only want to Raid. Is this really possible or am I going to have a bad time?
    You won't have a bad time but do not expect it to take a large portion of your week or anything. Whether that's good or bad only you can decide.

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