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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I'm not sure what type of brainwashing exists, but holy shit the amount of addons that are cited to be required to do anything above LFR is humorous at best. Are there encounters from time to time that need advanced weak auras or are incredibly hard without? Yeah. But people citing that they are all but required (especially with the notion of LFR and above are being completely disingenuous). I don't even have WA installed when I play WoW, and only install it on select encounters that I know are pretty stupidly designed. Mythic Azshara was the last one I can really remember, with some nods being thrown at the Lords of Dread in the recent raid and the rune boss near the end of Sanctum (I stopped raiding after Mythic Azshara).
    The problem is that people watch RWF streams and start claiming that their level of add-on involvement is the baseline.

    Hell, you saw that here in this thread, a direct reference to RWF guilds having add-on developers, as if that somehow reflects on how the rest of the playerbase interacts with the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This isn't arguable. This isn't debatable. The norm in WoW is to use addons that negate mechanics, such as DBM and weakauras. That is not the norm in FF14.
    They don't "negate" mechanics. They tell the player what's happening and/or what's coming. Which isn't much different than what XIV does baseline, honestly.

    Can WoW mods go a lot further? Sure. But you still have to play the mechanics. They're not "negated".

    There is no honest discussion that begins with "I want to redefine a word to help my argument". Alliance raids are raids. Period. The word "raid" in this context predates graphical video games with raids. It comes from MUDs where players would fight large battle together in turn based text. Those were raids too. Make up a new word if you need a new word, but redefining terms to fit your narrative is not "honest" and calling someone dishonest for refusing your redefinitions exponentially increases the dishonesty.
    No one's redefining anything. Within the context of this thread, what the OP asked, and what was discussed, alliance raids really don't qualify as the endgame content.

    You can keep saying "They're raids, so I'm right" until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that the context of the discussion isn't a vacuum.

    To use your car analogy, it's like someone asking what a good setup is for racing and you busting in with, "Well this Ford Taurus is a car! You asked about cars and this is a car! It's ok for me to drive and it's a car! It's technically a car and cars are what you asked about! Don't redefine car! This is a car!"

    I've never used an add-on to deal with any mechanic in FF14.
    That's not what was asked at all.

  2. #162
    Raidlogging for endgame content in fine in FFXIV if you have no issue with taking breaks between tiers. Savage raids and ultimate raids are of excellent quality, but they're not very plentiful, so I'd recommend clear and farming them, and then unsubbing until the next savage or ultimate release. It won't cost you anything in player power as there's no treadmill you're supposed to keep up with to be competitive

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post

    They don't "negate" mechanics. They tell the player what's happening and/or what's coming. Which isn't much different than what XIV does baseline, honestly.

    Can WoW mods go a lot further? Sure. But you still have to play the mechanics. They're not "negated".
    Yes, in wow the mods often negate mechanics. Yelling at you to move so that you don't have to watch for something is a negation of the mechanic, and that is only the simplest example. This is one of the the first things that came up when I went to wago:

    https://wago.io/IMRdNtnYK

    This literally handles a decision making and coordination mechanic for you.

    The statement that FF14 does this baseline is illogical on its face. The game cant negate its own mechanics, because those ARE its mechanics. It's self-refuting. It would be like arguing that the boss dying negates the enrage timer. It's nonsensical.

    No one's redefining anything. Within the context of this thread, what the OP asked, and what was discussed, alliance raids really don't qualify as the endgame content.
    They are endgame content and they are raids. Endgame means the content you do at level cap. Stop trying to redefine words to make your arguments seem more valid. It is dishonest.

    You can keep saying "They're raids, so I'm right" until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that the context of the discussion isn't a vacuum.
    Then just be honest and say "They are endgame raids, but they don't provide the kind of coordinated, challenging content you might be looking for." But, god forbid we be honest for thirty seconds. Word games and semantics are so much more interesting!

    To use your car analogy, it's like someone asking what a good setup is for racing and you busting in with, "Well this Ford Taurus is a car! You asked about cars and this is a car! It's ok for me to drive and it's a car! It's technically a car and cars are what you asked about! Don't redefine car! This is a car!"
    No, it's more like someone coming in to buy a car and I say "There's a lot of different types of cars here..." and instead of you just saying "Well the only type of car that interests me is X" you go on a tirade about how the only type of car that IS A CAR is the type you want.

    That's not what was asked at all.
    When you dishonestly respond to a point I made about ADDONS and try to turn it into being about OBTUSE MECHANICS, which are two different things, don't be surprised when I dodge your dishonest trash.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I don't think mechanical complexity is a worthless measure because it's hard to define. In fact, I'd argue that makes it very important. Looking at @Thoriangun 's argument I don't see very many complex mechanics in alliance raids. They are generally single solution and usually obvious. Mustadio's snipe? You either turn the opening or the not opening. You try it one way, if it doesn't work you try it the other. Orlandu's duskblade? You see circles, you stand in them or don't, one wipes you one doesn't. Add phases? Kill add, or wipe.

    Cid and Ozma were not complex at all. Math boss I'll give you, but if anything that's an example that better helps my point earlier in the discussion. I do agree on E8S for sure. Lots of complex mechanics there, some incredibly obtuse ones too.
    I'm not saying it's HARD to define, my point was each individual person will give different weight to different factors. You don't see these fights as mechanically complex and neither do I (aside from some savage fights) because we're both super sweaty hardcore raiders.

    For the average forum goer who engages in sites like reddit, those fights can be complex at first, but simple once they have it memorized.

    For the average player, many of these mechanics still give them a super hard time.

    I realize it's not the only factor, but you seem to put a lot of weight on mechanics having multiple solutions for their complexity. To me that's not complexity. That's flexibility. But as we know, a lot of fights have mechanics where multiple strategies are used across different data centers, and even on the same data center. Many of them are INCREDIBLY simple mechanics and sure, you can do them how you want, but that doesn't make them complex. Remember brambles from E9S? Everyone used that sucky Happy brambles until Rin Brambles finally spread. Same with ilya and sharingan in E8S. And when it came to that other game, playing through Legion I can't say I hardly ever ran into mechanics that were complex, just sometimes difficult to execute and with lots of randomness.

    That's the problem with language, words can mean different things to different people so what youthink of as complex I think of as simple.

    The biggest reason thundergod cid was so difficult the first several weeks is that hardly any of his attack telegraphs were standardized. You say they're easy to understand and have one solution usually, which with one solution I tend to agree. But how many mechanics in either game have more than one solution? Very very few, and most are just alternative forms of the same thing. But going back to Cid and Ozma and all the other "third bosses" their mechanics were not simple to understand initially, not until you'd seen them and been hit by them or died to them first. There was no standardized "langauge". Now with the nier raids, they began using the standardized raid mechanics language, so the nier raids were in fact a lot simpler (though Red Girl still wrecked raid groups the first couple of weeks).

    And that's my entire point. Mechanical complexity means something different to everyone. You assign "more than one solution" and "Difficult to understand" as complexity. That's how YOU define it, and because that's what you know, you think that's pretty much the standard. It's not the same for everyone. Not in the least.

    To beat the point home, in both games I often had mechanics that were incredibly easy for me to understand, learn, and execute, while others have tremendous problems. Then there were mechanics that I had a hard time learning how to execute, even though I understood them, while others had a simple time. I'd call the mechanics I had trouble with "hard" while others would tell me they were easy because they had no problems.

    Just about the only thing we can agree on are mechanics that basically everyone found incredibly challenging, like Light Rampant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The number of addons isn't what matters. What they are doing matters.
    This is the important bit. Early on in the game's life cycle, there were lots of smaller addons that did individual things. These days there are addons that are basically just giant packs of 20-50 smaller addons. A lot of preset specialized UI addons were basically just a ton of addons all mashed together into a single pack to make the UI you see. People seem to forget that things like ElvUI started oiut as just a huge pack of addons, pre set up for people to "plug and play" so to speak, rather than the player downloading ALL of those addons and setting the entire thing up themselves.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-06-17 at 07:36 PM.
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I don't really want to talk about dungeon bosses, or the basics like stack markers and stuff. They're fine. I'm talking about complex raid mechanics since that was the scope of the original question per the OP. These mechanics are usually debuff vomit with obtuse descriptions, strange interactions, and inconsistent behavior. The way to figure these out is trial and error to figure out the correct resolution and then you'll try and figure out placement/groupings for it. In WoW when the mechanics begin overlaying over each other you can usually figure out most of the solution, and then it's just a matter of positioning, cooldowns, and space management.
    Sorry, Tangle, here I think you and I just have to agree to disagree on this one here, something I'll get a little deeper on responding in the bellow post with my input/experience.

    You find wasting a ton of time repeatedly more engaging? I suppose that's fair considering the alternative, but I don't think it's something to be praised (one way or the other TBH). I mean yeah, if you have someone dead from jump street you're not killing an end boss during prog.
    Usually, in my experience, I'm going to be wiping anyway. Unlike some folks, I never had the 'most epic of epic raid groups' or 'one shotting everything'. Unless we're talking about something that my guild back in the day had on farm or something that everyone KNEW was dirt easy, wipes were expected. I'll take the fact that I'm getting murdered by mechanics I NEED to learn or hitting that hard enrage because someone died and we didn't have the damage to take him down then just not being able to do anything because they rest of the team will just carry me and I get gear/achievements and the like for being dead on the floor.

    Again, we're not talking about teaching or low difficulty content mechanics. That wasn't the scope of the discussion. We were discussing end game raiding per the OP. In that frame - do you have any input there?
    Here's where I'm going deeper on the agree to disagree here with a little bit of reasoning, just to explain my own experience. If you want to just stop here to 'agree to disagree', then by all means skip.

    The reason I was talking about the mechanics even from low difficulty content was to make the point that those mechanics are ALWAYS used again, even the higher raiding content. Even the Ultimate will use things like stack markers and more that has been trained into us since ARR to enhance it's own fight. When I saw that back in World of Warcraft, it was incredibly rare to see and often had to do with the boss actually being related to a previous one in some cases.

    A few examples, if I may, to express this point: Look at something older in WoW like Karazan. There's that one mage boss in the tower with his Flame wreaths, yea? When before (or since) has that mechanic really been used again when it comes to raids in WoW? At least up till I stopped raiding in WoD, I don't remember ever seeing this mechanic again. And with Karazan in general, how many of those bosses are completely different from the next, where even the rules for auto attacks could change depending on what you were facing. Even my favorite raids (Icecrown/Throne of Thunder) basically expected me to throw over half the stuff I've played through out the window so as to learn mechanics that I'd never expect to see again.

    Though I think, in the end, the reason I prefer 14's raiding over WoWs and one of the final points on it I'll make is the fact that I'm almost always engaged with 14. Back in my WoW days, especially as a Hunter, you know what I did half the time in most raids? I found that one safe spot in the fight that, in most cases, was often pointed out to me before hand and I just sat there and attacked. The only time things changed was if I needed to Misdirect something or trap it, which isn't every boss. 14 expects every player, especially in the cutting edge content, to move, react, and plan according to that boss in a way that it was obvious why you failed.

    To paraphase Jesse Cox: I prefer the dance over the street brawl.

    I mean, everyone got hit I compared apples to apples here. I merely compared the games over roughly the same time period.
    Yes, everyone got hit with covid, but it's a bit of a different horse when 14 before that had kept to a pretty strict schedule when it came to their patches and are even trying to make up for the problems Shadowbringers Experienced. Do they always have the same scope as WoW does when it comes to it's patches? No, but they're by far more regular. Not to mention if there's a big, game wide issue that needs addressing (Such as the recent housing issue), they do their best to work on that ASAP. I've seen similar instances in Wow take ages to fix, if they decide to even fix them in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I'm not sure what type of brainwashing exists, but holy shit the amount of addons that are cited to be required to do anything above LFR is humorous at best. Are there encounters from time to time that need advanced weak auras or are incredibly hard without? Yeah. But people citing that they are all but required (especially with the notion of LFR and above are being completely disingenuous).
    Snipping the part I'm responding to here.

    When I mentioned the addons on my side of things, this was just my experience between my eras of raiding, which started with late BC and ended mid WoD. With my old guild before it died, it was pretty simple. Just have DBM and do your job and you were pretty solid. After that? The guilds would judge me on the item score addon, specifically would out and out dismiss me if I wasn't high enough. Didn't matter if I had raiding experience, raid LEADING experience, or even the kill previously. Item score meant all and I was turned away if I couldn't meet that.

    The few groups that did let me in? Expected a couple of more addons on for their groups for what ever reason. Mind you, is that how things are now? I've no clue. But that was my experience until I just gave up Raiding in WoD thanks to a mix of just how horrible the player base was getting and just how dead of an expansion WoD itself was.

  6. #166
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    I never checked world rankings and only checked US side because it was relevant to recruiting needs, but I was always ranging from US20 (when I did 10 mans) to ~100 towards the end of tenure raiding. Raid leader and GM for years until BFA when I joined another guild for two raid tiers before quitting. They just took me because of my logs and past experience, while never forcing me to use addons. Pretty much the only thing I had when playing was Bigwigs, but I never updated it after the initial raid release because I'm incredibly lazy. Blizzard does sound really well, and the audio is basically what I used to get through encounters.

    When joining the guild I did in BFA they never forced me to download any weak auras, and to this day I don't really use any weak auras at all. I've used plugins or addons for fights like Mythic Azshara, Mythic Archimonde and the two bosses in WoD that had you stand in different runes (although these were mostly visual to plan who goes where). This is where WoWs design goes a little wrong IMO, because fights like Mythic Azshara are sort of a mess without an addon to help, and the same with Mythic Archimonde displaying where the lasers would go.

    Philosophy wise I never really cared as long as people could actually do it. Some of the weak auras my friends had over the years just seemed redundant to the point of why have them. I know people that have them that tell them to move if they're standing in bad, but they still die because the game still doesn't play the game for you. It's sort of like crossing the cross walk when you're not suppose to despite flashing lights and an X telling you not too.

    Are there problems with Addons in WoW? Yeah I would say so, but a lot of it's overexaggerated. I will 100% concede that some of the encounters (especially the ones I listed) have problematic parts, especially when they either solve the problem for you, or give you a visual representation of what's going on. Putricide in ICC was a good example of this, where people engineered Addons that essentially told you where the slime was going to land. Did I have it. No, because I didn't find it necessary, but this is also an example of poor feedback IMO to where people felt it was necessary. FF14 for the most part has far more readable encounters, but there are times where safe circles and designated areas are so close in color that it's annoying (same with the markers in the second savage fight in EW, which was a huge stumbling block for the pugs I ran as most cited the colors were far too close to differentiate).

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Are there problems with Addons in WoW? Yeah I would say so, but a lot of it's overexaggerated. I will 100% concede that some of the encounters (especially the ones I listed) have problematic parts, especially when they either solve the problem for you, or give you a visual representation of what's going on. Putricide in ICC was a good example of this, where people engineered Addons that essentially told you where the slime was going to land. Did I have it. No, because I didn't find it necessary, but this is also an example of poor feedback IMO to where people felt it was necessary. FF14 for the most part has far more readable encounters, but there are times where safe circles and designated areas are so close in color that it's annoying (same with the markers in the second savage fight in EW, which was a huge stumbling block for the pugs I ran as most cited the colors were far too close to differentiate).
    Then they should've used the shape (triangle vs square).


    I have to say that in WoW, I no longer even know what warning is from a boss-mod and what isn't.
    I know that they introduced flashing screens and stuff like that by default now.

    But having a addon reminding you to kick something or to spread out or to do X or to do Y like in WoW is basically doing the "job" of a raidlead now.
    In my opinion, addons are basically reminders and "wake you up". But that's also what mechanics are all about anyway most of the time as the mechanics themselves aren't hard to execute, you just have to remember what to do.
    In FFXIV, it would complete kill the encounter if you have Archimonde type of Arrows telling you where to move to, especially since a lot of mechanics are designed around adding some things together in your head, and after doing so, you know where you have to be.
    An addon telling you that? That would mean the only way you could wipe is by doing nothing.

    In WoW, especially now in Shadowlands, I've been unable to see "hostile pools" upon "friendly pools" more often than I count. Both the Nightfae and Kyrian Hunter ability is so fucked up in that regard.
    With nightfae, you have a small pool inside your big pool which grants you a "bloodlust", both are darkish blue and the area is a little darker.
    If I cast my stuff directly on the Gladiator boss in Theater of Pain, it overlaps 100% accurately with his AoE-circle. It's nuts.
    The game has become a complete mess visually imho and I started to *need* addons.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Then they should've used the shape (triangle vs square).


    I have to say that in WoW, I no longer even know what warning is from a boss-mod and what isn't.
    I know that they introduced flashing screens and stuff like that by default now.

    But having a addon reminding you to kick something or to spread out or to do X or to do Y like in WoW is basically doing the "job" of a raidlead now.
    In my opinion, addons are basically reminders and "wake you up". But that's also what mechanics are all about anyway most of the time as the mechanics themselves aren't hard to execute, you just have to remember what to do.
    In FFXIV, it would complete kill the encounter if you have Archimonde type of Arrows telling you where to move to, especially since a lot of mechanics are designed around adding some things together in your head, and after doing so, you know where you have to be.
    An addon telling you that? That would mean the only way you could wipe is by doing nothing.

    In WoW, especially now in Shadowlands, I've been unable to see "hostile pools" upon "friendly pools" more often than I count. Both the Nightfae and Kyrian Hunter ability is so fucked up in that regard.
    With nightfae, you have a small pool inside your big pool which grants you a "bloodlust", both are darkish blue and the area is a little darker.
    If I cast my stuff directly on the Gladiator boss in Theater of Pain, it overlaps 100% accurately with his AoE-circle. It's nuts.
    The game has become a complete mess visually imho and I started to *need* addons.
    At least for party members they recently (I think half the expansion ago?) made it so the AoE effects on the ground from friendly players aren't so in your face. You can still see them and I believe there might be flat out options to see stuff like that now. I can still see Kyrian or Nightfae circles on the ground, but right now they're very miniscule in regards to the bloom effect. I believe you can turn them straight off if you're a DPS (I think), but as a tank I have them on a setting to where I can still see them so I don't get the "REEEEE" in chat. I know this doesn't solve your issue directly as you're talking about your own individual circles on the ground, but from a group perspective they did make aspects of that better.

    FF14 generally does this better, but not all encounters are immune. The third savage fight in this tier in red on red on red on red. Which makes sense given the context of the encounter, but it's still sort of a mess. The last encounter on savage isn't something I've done, but the normal mode version has pretty distinct colors in each of the quadrants, which is a great example of readability.

    Generally in MMOs even if it takes you out of the experience slightly, I'd most group content to be as readable as possible. Even if that means a water like boss (for example) is giving out red circles on the ground.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I'm not saying it's HARD to define, my point was each individual person will give different weight to different factors. You don't see these fights as mechanically complex and neither do I (aside from some savage fights) because we're both super sweaty hardcore raiders.
    Just a quick aside - I don't consider myself a super sweaty hardcore raider. I raid 6 hours max a week and am almost exclusively a raid logger in both games. Historically I define hardcore as a time investment metric, not a skill based one. Just wanted to clarify my mentality in case it helps.

    I realize it's not the only factor, but you seem to put a lot of weight on mechanics having multiple solutions for their complexity. To me that's not complexity. That's flexibility. But as we know, a lot of fights have mechanics where multiple strategies are used across different data centers, and even on the same data center. Many of them are INCREDIBLY simple mechanics and sure, you can do them how you want, but that doesn't make them complex. Remember brambles from E9S? Everyone used that sucky Happy brambles until Rin Brambles finally spread. Same with ilya and sharingan in E8S. And when it came to that other game, playing through Legion I can't say I hardly ever ran into mechanics that were complex, just sometimes difficult to execute and with lots of randomness.
    This is a good point and a great clarifying segment. Personally, I consider complexity as a measure of decision fatigue. How stressful is it to work out and execute with no guidance. It gets harder to quantify because something could genuinely be easy to execute but very challenging to work out and vice versa. I'd be genuinely curious how you define it?

    To beat the point home, in both games I often had mechanics that were incredibly easy for me to understand, learn, and execute, while others have tremendous problems. Then there were mechanics that I had a hard time learning how to execute, even though I understood them, while others had a simple time. I'd call the mechanics I had trouble with "hard" while others would tell me they were easy because they had no problems.

    Just about the only thing we can agree on are mechanics that basically everyone found incredibly challenging, like Light Rampant.
    Oh for sure, I struggled IMMENSELY with Trine during God Kefka. I literally was like I don't understand how to read the safe spot. I had people showing me diagrams, videos, telling me, nothing helped until one person worded the solution in a way that made sense. It was embarrassing. I was a top raider and struggled with that mechanic.

    In WoW, during Mythic Twin Ogron, I died to the fire more than I have died to the sum of all mechanics in that entire raid. I've dodged fire my entire raiding career with ease, but for some reason this fire was fucking miserable for me, it didn't help that there was some stupid fucking GFX card glitch that made it invisible ~20-25% of the pulls, but I even died to it when it wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    A few examples, if I may, to express this point: Look at something older in WoW like Karazan. There's that one mage boss in the tower with his Flame wreaths, yea? When before (or since) has that mechanic really been used again when it comes to raids in WoW? At least up till I stopped raiding in WoD, I don't remember ever seeing this mechanic again. And with Karazan in general, how many of those bosses are completely different from the next, where even the rules for auto attacks could change depending on what you were facing. Even my favorite raids (Icecrown/Throne of Thunder) basically expected me to throw over half the stuff I've played through out the window so as to learn mechanics that I'd never expect to see again.
    To be fair though FF14 does this too. Some bosses require 1 and 2 on threat for autos, others just auto target the tanks, others do it by proximity. Other icons or sfx have been used to do completely different effects. Don't get me wrong though, I actually don't mind this, but both games have some pretty standard universal language and some non-sensical stuff too.

    Though I think, in the end, the reason I prefer 14's raiding over WoWs and one of the final points on it I'll make is the fact that I'm almost always engaged with 14. Back in my WoW days, especially as a Hunter, you know what I did half the time in most raids? I found that one safe spot in the fight that, in most cases, was often pointed out to me before hand and I just sat there and attacked. The only time things changed was if I needed to Misdirect something or trap it, which isn't every boss. 14 expects every player, especially in the cutting edge content, to move, react, and plan according to that boss in a way that it was obvious why you failed.
    I agree on the WoW piece, that's fair criticism. However, the only part I had an issue with was the "obvious why you failed" segment in FF14. I've done more pulls than I can count where it wasn't obvious why we failed. Hell, 99% of learning savage (you know before we get videos out to everyone) is being like fuck I have no idea why XYZ happened.

    To paraphase Jesse Cox: I prefer the dance over the street brawl.
    I don't think you need to "agree to disagree" as it were. This sentence sums up your feelings perfectly and is a perfectly valid opinion to have. I was merely curious on WHY you preferred the dance, not that you preferred it .

    Yes, everyone got hit with covid, but it's a bit of a different horse when 14 before that had kept to a pretty strict schedule when it came to their patches and are even trying to make up for the problems Shadowbringers Experienced. Do they always have the same scope as WoW does when it comes to it's patches? No, but they're by far more regular. Not to mention if there's a big, game wide issue that needs addressing (Such as the recent housing issue), they do their best to work on that ASAP. I've seen similar instances in Wow take ages to fix, if they decide to even fix them in the first place.
    Mostly irrelevant to the discussion since it was catered to raid content. Outside of raid content, all fair points, but not the scope of the discussion or response.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2022-06-21 at 07:09 PM.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Oh for sure, I struggled IMMENSELY with Trine during God Kefka. I literally was like I don't understand how to read the safe spot. I had people showing me diagrams, videos, telling me, nothing helped until one person worded the solution in a way that made sense. It was embarrassing. I was a top raider and struggled with that mechanic.
    Yeah, Trine was one of those mechanics where I saw it one time and I instantly figured out how to find the safe spot every single time. But I have a particularly high level of spatial reasoning capability, along with pattern recognition. The mechanics I struggle with the most are some of the simpler ones, oddly enough. When I'm in the middle of complex mechanics I thrive because I know what's coming. Then sometimes I forget a tank buster is coming and have to scramble to mash cooldowns, either dying or losing two GCDs to frantic button mashing.

    It's one reason I use raid timers, showing me what mechanics are coming up. Some will consider it cheating to use these timers and/or triggers, but one could also just as easily set up a simple timer program with a list of all important mechanics and what time they come up in a word document, and it'd pretty much be the same thing.
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    The thing here is, and this is important to mention: yes, FFXIV has more varied content by far. WoW has raids, mythic dungeons and farming 0.01% drop rate mount and pet recolors. But the OP isn't asking about all content. In fact, he's very specifically excluding all non-raid content. And yes, WoW caters far more to the RAID RAID RAID mentality. (Which is a massive detriment in my opinion, but it isn't my thread.)
    Problem is whenever WoW makes content outside of pvp/raids/keys the loudest backlash from the vocal forumgoers is something along the lines of "wasting dev time on stuff that isn't content."

    You said it yourself with your reply to Caprias that I snipped cause I don't know how to format that. =-)
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  12. #172
    I've played since heavensward and I haven't seen a single cut scene. I blast through the leveling and then I do dungeons and raids, a little bit of glamour/transmog and level other jobs.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Problem is whenever WoW makes content outside of pvp/raids/keys the loudest backlash from the vocal forumgoers is something along the lines of "wasting dev time on stuff that isn't content."

    You said it yourself with your reply to Caprias that I snipped cause I don't know how to format that. =-)
    Myeah, fair enough. That's a shame, and I do think it makes WoW feel less evergreen than it does, because if you're not a parser, you're not going to be that excited about raiding for long. Hell, if you don't like the hardcore raid life, you won't even step a foot into mythic raiding or even heroic raiding. I don't know who I'd blame for the fact that you really only have a limited amount of routes to go for WoW content, but regardless, it's one of the reasons I don't particularly miss it.

    I will always admit, though, that for better or worse, WoW has a bigger and more developed raiding scene. This is just the truth, but it also appears to come at a cost, which I don't think is worth it.

  14. #174
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    What a strange question considering that entire FF14 from the level 1 of your first job to cap is endgame.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    An expansion will have the following:

    12 normal/savage raid bosses.
    12-15 Alliance raid bosses.
    7-9 Trial bosses.
    1-2 Ultimate raids.

    That's about 35 bosses per expansion, completely comparable with WoW.
    Except 90% of those bosses just fall over. Extreme/Savage are a joke compared to Mythic.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    Except 90% of those bosses just fall over. Extreme/Savage are a joke compared to Mythic.
    And Mythic is a joke compared to Ultimate. So what?

    Most people aren't mythic raiders, so it doesn't really reflect on the quality or quantity of PvP content.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    And Mythic is a joke compared to Ultimate. So what?

    Most people aren't mythic raiders, so it doesn't really reflect on the quality or quantity of PvP content.
    OP asked for end-game content. I don't consider anything below Mythic raiding to be end-game content in wow, and anything below Ultimate in FF as well.

    And please don't bring PvP up, if you think PvP in FF14 is "content" we can end this discussion right here lmao.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    Except 90% of those bosses just fall over. Extreme/Savage are a joke compared to Mythic.
    When a group of world first wow raiders joined the savage world first race, and took months to practice and prepare for it, did they just one shot the bosses that you claim "just fall over" or did they come in 36th after days of attempts?

    I await the clever way you dodge this question.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    OP asked for end-game content. I don't consider anything below Mythic raiding to be end-game content in wow, and anything below Ultimate in FF as well.

    And please don't bring PvP up, if you think PvP in FF14 is "content" we can end this discussion right here lmao.
    Endgame means the content you do at max level. World quests are endgame and mythic raids are endgame.

    And PvP is amazing in FF right now. Crystalline Conflict is incredible.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    OP asked for end-game content. I don't consider anything below Mythic raiding to be end-game content in wow, and anything below Ultimate in FF as well.

    And please don't bring PvP up, if you think PvP in FF14 is "content" we can end this discussion right here lmao.
    I found the issue in your post.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And PvP is amazing in FF right now. Crystalline Conflict is incredible.
    Honestly, I still need to throw myself into it. Maybe during season 2, to get the glam and emote stuff.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I found the issue in your post.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Honestly, I still need to throw myself into it. Maybe during season 2, to get the glam and emote stuff.
    The way they redid the jobs is amazing. Stripping everyone down to so few abilities has made all the jobs feel very focused. There's no weird bloat or useless abilities. Everything has a purpose.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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