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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Well, if they are adults - they are free to spend money how they wish. And such phrase as *young adults* somehow sounds pretty strange to me.
    Not sure what is strange about it... being an adult is a range with a start point. young adults refer to someone being closer to said start point.
    Same as older kids are closer to the end of the kid range.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Akshually that's only true for extraverts who dominate pvp/social games, sports, shooters, arcades. Action.
    Introverts are doing it for acetylcholine and prefer solo play, rpgs, story and theorycrafting. The things that stimulate the producing of it - thinking. It has the same stimulating effect as dopamine for extraverts.
    Got anything I can read about it?
    Quick googling about it doesn't say anything of it being a replacement of dopamine, just that's it's part of the process of the reward system, not that it is one which dopamine is. A reward system to get us to do things. If extroverts and introverts activate the reward system differently, doesn't mean much since they chase the same thing. Curious of reading more specifics about it in this context though.

    https://elifesciences.org/articles/37487
    Experiments showed that when acetylcholine binds to a specific subtype of nicotinic receptors on VTA neurons – called β2-containing receptors – it makes the neurons release the brain's reward signal, dopamine. Switching these receptors on and off changed how the mice responded to nicotine.
    Yeah, it sounds like it's helping the release of dopamine. By bridging the neuroconnections so they can transmit. So both do indeed chase dopamine, afaict. It also seems to trigger in muscle connections so their signals can go through... basically a medium to help send signals through the bodies connections.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-07-01 at 12:39 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Which community accepts p2w? Haven't heard of any community... I think most are against and some are split. Maybe some tinier elite groups / communities that push to be the top accepts it, but those are small.
    Since the definition of P2W ranges from "Anything that somehow affects your character and can be aquired for real money" to "You automatically have to win 100% every time with that item and the item can only be bought with real money or it's not P2W" there are some communities that accept shop items that are very good or even better than free stuff.

    Just look at the Wargaming games, in World of Tanks you can buy gold ammunititon that is just flat out better than normal ammo and even though you can get some by grinding, buying is heavily incentiviced. Or in World of Warships where some premium ships just get the perfect setup that makes them a little bit better than techtree ships. Not grossly overpowered but often a little bit better than the free version. Sometimes even to the point where they have to remove the ships from the shop.

    And this can be seen in other games, too.
    If you have a very strict P2W definition that doesn't happen for you, of course.
    Last edited by Yriel; 2022-07-01 at 02:19 PM.

  3. #203
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    No. Whales are closer to humans than sharks. Whale sharks aren't mammals. Please stick to whatever your lane is, because it's certainly not biology.
    Neither Shark Nor Whale, are Human....
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Since the definition of P2W ranges from "Anything that somehow affects your character and can be aquired for real money" to "You automatically have to win 100% every time with that item and the item can only be bought with real money or it's not P2W" there are some communities that accept shop items that are very good or even better than free stuff.

    Just look at the Wargaming games, in World of Tanks you can buy gold ammunititon that is just flat out better than normal ammo and even though you can get some by grinding, buying is heavily incentiviced. Or in World of Warships where some premium ships just get the perfect setup that makes them a little bit better than techtree ships. Not grossly overpowered but often a little bit better than the free version. Sometimes even to the point where they have to remove the ships from the shop.

    And this can be seen in other games, too.
    If you have a very strict P2W definition that doesn't happen for you, of course.
    I don't feel like this is answering the question though. Yes, games have varying degrees of p2w...
    I'm asking which communities, and I assume in this context we talk about gaming communities, accepts them. Even your case even I have heard about it and I don't play it and it wasn't a positive thing about the golden ammo.
    Which circles to the question... which communities accepts p2w aspects? or are we talking about that if someone plays a game with p2w in it and even if they don't participate in it they still "accept" it because it exists? If so I disagree with that too...

    I'm mostly just confused where this idea of "we have p2w because COMMUNITIES accept it" when all evidence is to the contrary. But it's still here because it's racking in money, mostly from people who aren't as invested in games as communities. Within the gaming sphere, p2w is certainly not accepted, from my experience of course. The ones I know who spends money on for example Candy Crush are people who I consider to not be "gamers". They just play on their phone at times.
    FIFA became huge within the p2w and mtx scandals because it consists mostly of football fans who aren't particularly interested in games outside of that game.

    To add to that, p2w and mtx became bigger and bigger the more casual and widespread gaming became in general. Which is of course a correlation to my point, not necessarily a causation. But that's where I'm leaning towards.

    Hence my position that gamers fighting other gamers as if they are the problem when the real problem is that they earn way to much money on mtx from the general NON-GAMER public than the gamers. So if you want to win them over and get people to stop making p2w games you have to convince them that it's worthwhile to NOT make p2w games... I think the only answer to that is MTX gamers with no p2w aspects and even then I think you won't earn as much as if you were a p2w game.

    Legislation against gambling aspects is another avenue, but I think that will just turn into non-rng but lengthy acquisitions instead and won't exactly help. Instead of having RNG that averages out at 1000 rift runs you just have 1200 rift runs be deterministic instead which isn't exactly better in my eyes.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-07-01 at 02:44 PM.

  5. #205
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Got anything I can read about it?
    Quick googling about it doesn't say anything of it being a replacement of dopamine, just that's it's part of the process of the reward system, not that it is one which dopamine is. A reward system to get us to do things. If extroverts and introverts activate the reward system differently, doesn't mean much since they chase the same thing. Curious of reading more specifics about it in this context though.

    https://elifesciences.org/articles/37487


    Yeah, it sounds like it's helping the release of dopamine. By bridging the neuroconnections so they can transmit. So both do indeed chase dopamine, afaict. It also seems to trigger in muscle connections so their signals can go through... basically a medium to help send signals through the bodies connections.
    It's not replacing dopamine, both introverts and extraverts make use of dopamine and acetylcholine. It's just their brains are wired differently.
    You can just google "introversion acetylcholine"
    Here's one of my top results that explains the difference: https://introvertdear.com/news/intro...ng-to-science/
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It's not replacing dopamine, both introverts and extraverts make use of dopamine and acetylcholine. It's just their brains are wired differently.
    You can just google "introversion acetylcholine"
    Here's one of my top results that explains the difference: https://introvertdear.com/news/intro...ng-to-science/
    From reading that it didn't get much clearer... most references are self references as well.
    When I read about acetylcholine, I find nothing of it being a reward system except that it's used to make connections between neurons for signals and chemicals.

    Don't get me wrong, it makes sense to me that the body would give a reward to an extrovert when being in the fight or flight response while introverts would get a reward when in a rest and digest mode... but that's still dopamine being the reward, not the acetylcholine.

    https://www.britannica.com/science/acetylcholine
    Nothing here states it's a reward system, it bridges the connection between neurons
    And is only there for a brief moment before being broken down.
    Acetylcholine is rapidly destroyed by the enzyme acetylcholinesterase and thus is effective only briefly.
    So to me, this chemical is only there to make neurons work. And the texts are often talking about memory issues and Alzheimer being linked to have low acetylcholine.

    I don't disagree with the text that it's different between extroverts and introverts.
    And personally, if I give my own theory based off these readings I've made, in particularly this line:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine
    In the sympathetic nervous system the output connections mainly release noradrenaline, although acetylcholine is released at a few points, such as the sudomotor innervation of the sweat glands.
    Perhaps introverts have more acetylcholine connections and extroverts have more noradrenaline connections which is why introverts find extrovert situations to be exhausted and extroverts find introvert situations boring and become restless.
    I feel like the text is making the mistake that it conflates the acetylcholine connections dispensing dopamine as if it's the reward just like dopamine.
    It sounds more like noradrenaline and acetylcholine are 2 ways to dispense the dopamine reward, which are preferred differently based on person to person.
    Extroverts prefer noradrenaline to get dopamine, while introverts prefer acetylcholine to get dopamine.


    Also I find it odd that it has never been mentioned as a reward chemical by mental health professionals I've been too, but now I'm inclined to ask about it if I can remember it and it won't derail the meeting too long.

    I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting topic. I also think it's derailing the thread a bit. If you want to continue send a message.

  7. #207
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Also I find it odd that it has never been mentioned as a reward chemical by mental health professionals I've been too, but now I'm inclined to ask about it if I can remember it and it won't derail the meeting too long.

    I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting topic. I also think it's derailing the thread a bit. If you want to continue send a message.
    Sure, ask them, do some research if it's interesting.

    Just one note: a mental health professional - is just an individual who graduated a medical educational facility majoring in mental health delivery and currently is being employed at a mental health dispensary as a mental health professional.

    I.e. - it's just a guy/gal with an M.D. in psychotherapy. They might not be Up-To-Date on recent medical science, even in their area of expertise. They are humans like everyone else. Lazy and full of shit.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Which community accepts p2w? Haven't heard of any community... I think most are against and some are split. Maybe some tinier elite groups / communities that push to be the top accepts it, but those are small.

    It's "accepted" by the majority who isn't part of any community and just plays games in their spare time casually. They don't get involved in gaming politics. It's there because they earn stupidly amount of money by doing so, which is funded by the ones, mostly, who aren't part of any gaming community. Not saying there aren't gaming communities that support p2w, but personally I see little of it... I see mostly communities being against it.

    Question is, why would a company who wants to earn money, listen to the people who don't want to spend money? That's what people are up against, and it's a uphill battle, not because of lack of support within communities but because of money.

    speaking of just this community I would say majority is against p2w.
    I would've used money on Diablo Immortal if it did anything(and it was a good game, caps ruined it though on top of being biggest P2W bullshit ever). Spending under $100 just does nothing in DI. I paid for a founder's pack in Lost Ark. I'm totally fine using money on services be it F2P or B2P as long as they are fair and not predatory and I know quite few people who think the same.. Just F2P rarely is fair and doesn't have predatory mechanics in them. So I won't pay for them. With Lost Ark I did make the mistake of supporting them, because I thought we'd get the honing rates, gear level limits and events other regions got, but we didn't.

    And there are youtubers(Stew Gaming for example) defending Diablo Immortal and they have followers. I'd call that a community. Fact is that a lot people are against P2W, but the amounts are so low compared to the amounts that don't care or accept it that companies just don't care, what is bad publicity when you stand to make Billions. That's why it's so successful as a model. One mega whale is more valuable than thousands other players. And people play these games, being fodder for those who whale and use that power to feed their superiority complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Target kids who have no income whatsoever?
    Well I had 8k€ in my back account and I had full control over it before I was 18. Some people get allowances that can go up to hundreds a month. Also parents tend to give their kids access to their credit card through app stores. Now you can chargeback if your kid does something stupid like spend thousands on a gacha game. But how many will if they were idiotic enough to give their kids access to their credit card.

  9. #209
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Why isn't okay for your spouse to spend a few hundred bucks on entertainment over X time but it is okay for you and your friends? Why are your games more valid than her games?

    There is a lot of nonsense in this thread that is thinly veiled, "My choices are superior to your choices in what entertains me!"
    Not sure where you gathered that I said it wasn't OK for her to spend money on it. The context to the story was its accepted differently than traditional games. Sorry you were confused by basic reading comprehension skills. The part that is not OK is the monetization of the mobile games in general.

  10. #210
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    The real truth is they don't need to be paid to win/ have fun or anything like what we are currently getting, portable games have existed for years think Gameboy and your current smart is way more powerful than that Gameboy or even Nintendo DS ever was!

    The reason companies create this free-to-play-spam game is the same reason why WoW/FFXIV got cash shops on top of their subs. Because they tried and it worked! When WoW put their first sparkle pony for sale many people got them so from that point they just were adding more and more!

    The same thing happened with mobile games all this started with one game and from there they tested many kind of games... if you look at the app store games you see clearly that a lot of games use the exact same ideas with different skins... they do it because that model worked! From the hero collector to the PVP pay to win model they all work and print money

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Which community accepts p2w? Haven't heard of any community... I think most are against and some are split. Maybe some tinier elite groups / communities that push to be the top accepts it, but those are small..
    Arguably the with a few of the definitions of p2w here the fighting game community is generally ok with it if you assume a DLC character that is Top Tier is pay to win....

    But most of us see that as a better alternative to having Ultimate Street Fighter 6 Turbo Alpha Definitive Edition for realzies this time
    Last edited by Mysterymask; 2022-07-02 at 02:04 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Weilyn View Post
    [COLOR="#417394"]
    Not sure where you gathered that I said it wasn't OK for her to spend money on it. The context to the story was its accepted differently than traditional games. Sorry you were confused by basic reading comprehension skills. The part that is not OK is the monetization of the mobile games in general.
    If she is participating in a system you think is not okay, then you are saying it is not okay to spend money on these games.

    Sorry, you lack basic logic skills?

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Neither Shark Nor Whale, are Human....
    The fuck does that have to do with anything? Whales are far removed from being related to whale sharks, which are actual sharks. You're wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  14. #214
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by |Dexter| View Post
    The real truth is they don't need to be paid to win/ have fun or anything like what we are currently getting, portable games have existed for years think Gameboy and your current smart is way more powerful than that Gameboy or even Nintendo DS ever was!

    The reason companies create this free-to-play-spam game is the same reason why WoW/FFXIV got cash shops on top of their subs. Because they tried and it worked! When WoW put their first sparkle pony for sale many people got them so from that point they just were adding more and more!

    The same thing happened with mobile games all this started with one game and from there they tested many kind of games... if you look at the app store games you see clearly that a lot of games use the exact same ideas with different skins... they do it because that model worked! From the hero collector to the PVP pay to win model they all work and print money
    The real truth though is WHY that worked. Which is basic economy 101. There was a demand. The new market emerged and quickly got filled with supply. And now we are at equilibrium.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Which circles to the question... which communities accepts p2w aspects? or are we talking about that if someone plays a game with p2w in it and even if they don't participate in it they still "accept" it because it exists? If so I disagree with that too...
    I'd say yes. There is a difference between accepting something and liking something. Someone who plays a game with P2W elements accepts P2W, even if he doesn't like them.
    Plus, at least from my experience (and i'm guilty of that, too), even though people dislike the P2W elements they still use them now and then. Buy some gold ammo, buy some exceptional powerful premium ship to stay competative, to win more often, to farm currency more efficiently.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Target kids who have no income whatsoever?
    By your logic, why have age restrictions on gambling at all? Or alcohol for that matter, they "don't have money". :P
    (This signature was clearly too awesome for the Avatar & Signature Guidelines and was removed to prevent further facemelting)

  17. #217
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Exactly. They don't. And those few who do - circumvent all restrictions.
    No sane businessman will target kids with an adult product.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  18. #218
    They don't have to be. But mobile is the perfect platform for these kind of procedures because it's immensely widepspread and in the hands of mostly tech-illiterate users who have literally zero perception about what a videogame is and what microtransactions are setup to be.

    Plus, given how the games are designed to hook as much people as possible but don't really need that many people to function and be immensely profitable, it's a win-win for companies. Who gives a fuck about making a good game or having terrible backlash - you just need a handful of heavy spenders and you're going to rake up millions. And such people are usually NOT the ones that check forums or watch youtube videos about how shitty the mobile gaming market is.

    One funny thing i'm going to share with you all. Diablo Immortal is like 25x worse than any other gacha games in terms of raw money you need to pump in to max out your character and it's terrible. However, in terms of shitty practices, the new Ni No Kuni game is even worse. It's awfully P2W and "it's a mobile game, so DUH" - however they decided to bank in the Crypto market, and you can farm actual crypto by playing. This lead to a massive insurgence of bots, because, you know, farming real money is actually someone would like to do - causing insane login queues for players. And what the company decided to do? To offer a paid subscription to skip the login queue.

    This to say that every day something worse appears until someone gets their hands on this shit and breaks the market as a whole. There's nothing to salvage here.

    And voting with our wallets simply doesn't apply since there are a few guys spending thousands of dollars daily on this crap that basically mantain the entire system up and running.

    SIDE NOTE: p2w as everything has various degrees. That's why in some games is "tolerated" - because f2p or low spending players can have substantial amounts of fun and a a quality product. The major issue to me is not even p2w by itself but the fact everything is built up in the most convoluted way possible because devs know well that putting everything on a store with disclosed prices and chances will drive away most people. Who the fuck is going to buy a 5star D.I gem if it was in the store at a 5k$ price tag (we know someone will do it).
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2022-07-04 at 09:35 AM.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  19. #219
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Who gives a fuck about making a good game or having terrible backlash - you just need a handful of heavy spenders and you're going to rake up millions.
    And here lies the inherent problem with that kind of reasoning.

    No. One. Will. Pay. In. A. Game. They. Do. Not. Enjoy. Period.

    If players enjoy the game - it's objectively good for its audience.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    And here lies the inherent problem with that kind of reasoning.

    No. One. Will. Pay. In. A. Game. They. Do. Not. Enjoy. Period.

    If players enjoy the game - it's objectively good for its audience.
    What you wrote is the defintion of an opinion. Any game will be subjectively good for the people who enjoy it. That's a basic fact and we're not talking about this.

    We're talking about the fact that the mobile market is like it is because most players on the platform are clueless about videogames in general, and the fact that producing one of these games costs much less, while getting way higher net results because they don't need to rely on being good games. They just need to hook people with money and poor judgement to spend as much as possible.

    The actual quality of the game has nothing to do with this. But the trend is clear that since product quality doesn't matter a lot, the less you need the better since you will spend less resources on it.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

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