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  1. #41
    The one thing I'll definitely agree with OP on is that TBC would've been better off giving the Horde goblins and the Alliance High Elves. The aesthetic difference between the Horde and the Alliance shouldn't have been so quickly tossed aside in the game's very first expansion. Visually I love the classic duality of brute, beastly races on one side, and the humanoid, noble races on the other. That's such a great theme, and I feel like both factions have slowly lost their unique aesthetic over time.


    I'd always thought about a faction division sort of like this:

    Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Night Elves, High Elves, eventually Kul Tirans

    Horde Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, eventually Ogres

    And, a possible third Forsaken faction: Undead humans, Banshee, Skeletal Vrykul, Darkfallen, eventually Abominations


    I like the idea of the three factions getting a set of equivalent bonus races. like Kul Tirans/Ogres/Abominations (a big fat tanky race) and maybe Dryads, Centaurs and Nerubians as the polypod race



    This is just completely at the top of my head though, point being that I'd greatly preferred of the factions stayed aesthetically unique and didn't become more and more bland each expansion
    Last edited by Rathwell; 2022-06-21 at 05:20 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Yes, WC3 lore was better, but I as one poster mentioned, it was done by the "old guard" which is the main culprit behind scandals that has shaken Blizzard last year. It cannot be ignored.
    Warcraft 3 lore worked because it was a single project (well, one and an expansion) that people didnt get fussed over for retconning 1 and 2.

    It didn't go on for almost 20 years expecting to add 'more'.

  3. #43
    It is not controversial... it is true.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    A Titan PoV who can see everything through time.

    AmanThul knows everything that happens in the physical world, everything that has happened and everything that will happen in the correct timeline. This is why the bronze dragons exist to keep that timeline intact.
    u do know they added that line specifically to make it non-canon and fiction right? they said if anything wrong in chronicle, that is because it is from a titan pov
    and while bronze can see future, it was never clear pure vision as we saw many times in wow, they more or less see fraction of what should be future, with many false visions too (as we saw in MoP), so if the titan has same power as them, it can't be counted on for guarantee visions
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    I hope you're prepared not to enjoy anything made before the year 2000.
    Who said anything about enjoying? I'm talking about respecting or holding it on a pedestal.

    I could enjoy Shadowlands' additions to the story, for example, and simultaneously not feel the original WoW story writers' creative vision should be held as sacred or protected from any kind of change of direction. The two almost go hand in hand, to be honest.

    I dislike many of the additions for storytelling reasons, not because "it betrayed the original team's world".

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathwell View Post
    This is just completely at the top of my head though, point being that I'd greatly preferred of the factions stayed aesthetically unique and didn't become more and more bland each expansion
    I want undead to completely break off from the horde. Write the majority as holes and give players different avenues of finding unity away from their kin. Maybe even the more wild races follow a similar path of progression into a faction originating from another form of domination.

  7. #47
    Jeez, and people accuse me of writing walls of text when it's only a couple paragraphs.

    Anyway, I don't think this is controversial. Especially coming down from the Shadowlands where the whole story may as well have been some sort of tinfoil hat literary project retcon about how the new dev team is taking over and shunning the "first ones" who belong in a tomb. The only thing that would have made it more complete is if we had failed in stopping the Jailer in some post cinematic and the new expansion was literally a rewriting of existence where we could start over again.

  8. #48
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Jeez, and people accuse me of writing walls of text when it's only a couple paragraphs.

    Anyway, I don't think this is controversial. Especially coming down from the Shadowlands where the whole story may as well have been some sort of tinfoil hat literary project retcon about how the new dev team is taking over and shunning the "first ones" who belong in a tomb. The only thing that would have made it more complete is if we had failed in stopping the Jailer in some post cinematic and the new expansion was literally a rewriting of existence where we could start over again.
    Some of the First Ones are still alive. The fact that they are gone from Death realm doesn’t mean they are completely gone. It’s been like with Titans where we all thought they are dead.
    Behold my new creation!


  9. #49
    After WC3,
    Tell me you never played WC1 or WC2 without telling me you never played WC1 or WC2

  10. #50
    Yeah, that has been their strategy since WC II. They rewrite the lore to fit what they want to do for their next game and then release a corrected version of their "canon" a couple of years later to make everything sort of make sense again. The MCU does something similiar, but it's harder to notice, because they have better writers.

    And since gameplay is Blizzards priority and they are much better game designers than writers, this is the correct thing to do in their situation. Most ongoing stories either do soft rewrites to make the current chapter fun to watch/play, constantly reboot itself or become a stupid mess like comic book universes. So I really prefer their current strategy. I just wish they were better at it.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  11. #51
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Tell me you never played WC1 or WC2 without telling me you never played WC1 or WC2
    i played both wc1 and 2, and the story was far more generic boring than wc3 retcon to it
    wc3 'retcon' was more of actual making a story, because wc1&2 was orcs evil humans good, with few good ideas like Alterac/shadowmoon betray and black dragon role
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  12. #52
    Honestly, the OP's post was actually really interesting to read. I personally thought that the Blood Elves were a great fit for the Horde in general (Garithos' actions were pretty extreme, I thought it was totally believable they left the Alliance because of it), but I can certainly roll with the idea of them having remained on the Alliance, as well.

    I mean, if we're just talking "what COULD have been", you could almost make a case for the Blood Elves and the Draenei being a "neutral faction" together. At this point in time, the Draenei didn't have lore in which the Orcs slaughtered them mercilessly, but even so, you could make the case that those tense relationships are WHY these two races would've been "neutral". Some Draenei distrust the Orcs, while some recognize Thrall as a leader of honor. Similarly, some Blood Elves might still feel close ties to the Alliance, while others see the Alliance as having abandoned them. Having found relative stability in Outland, they would represent a sort of "third faction" that has the capacity to join other players, but from a lore perspective, aren't officially affiliated with either (you could technically throw the likes of Goblins and Ogres into a similar "neutral" state).

    While I didn't like Cataclysm that much as an expansion, I can't say I had any particular issues with the story. I do agree, they shouldn't have killed off Arthas (Blizzard seems to recognize his importance to fans, it's surprising how they chose to handle him in Shadowlands). But honestly, I think around that point, you start getting out into completely uncharted territory.

    I suppose in a perfect world, TBC would've lead into Cataclysm (since there were loads of theories that Deathwing was actually located in Outland), and THEN Wrath. I don't have anything bad to say about Northrend, but I actually do kind of agree, I think it would've been more meaningful if Northrend was TRULY desolate, and maybe have added zones elsewhere to fill things out a bit. Maybe Quel'thalas would've been untouched during TBC, and make that your "early leveling zone" for Wrath, leading up to the Dead Scar and Silvermoon having been claimed by the Scourge, and only after defeating the Scourge forces there, embarking on the journey to Northrend proper. Just make it a full-on Scourge nation, with endless snowy wastelands, to blight-infected forests.

    It's hard to say anything up through Wrath was a "bad call", though, given the game's obvious popularity. I think it's only nearing the END of Wrath, we saw players becoming unhappy with the direction Blizzard chose to take things. And we obviously see that with the rapid fall-off of subscribers.

  13. #53
    I expected a bunch of complaining but you beautifully laid out a lot of missed opportunities.


    At this point, I should say I would wish for Blizzard to flesh out Azeroth more, and maybe have given us a smaller Outland. Azeroth just feels abandoned by them, when this is your core! The Azure and Bloodmyst isles could have been the Goblin zones, and Quel'Thalas the Elven. More pressure on each faction in the opposite continent.
    I do think that with at least TBC and WotL Blizzard was technically constrained and couldn't yet update the existing world. So self-contained continents had to do all the heavy lifting which also limits how much story you can tell in it. The Burning Crusade actually expanded Azeroth with Quel'Thalas and the Bloodmyst Islands but these two places actually exist in the Outland 'instance' rather than in Azeroth themselves.

    But after Cataclysm though, there's zero excuse not to keep revising Azeroth. In fact Cataclysm added an urgency to revising Azeroth as the whole place is still in a cataclysmic state to this very day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kent088 View Post
    Other neglected lore insights or bad retcons/post edits:

    -Titans, who are severely reduced and disrespected in WoW's current iteration
    -Class Lore(Um, does anyone remember Mages having literal hermeticists, occultists, and illuminati in the old class quests??)
    -Cosmology(The Old Cosmology was way better for storytelling purposes)
    -The Goblin Cartels, a potential large plot point themselves
    -Trolls, who no longer are featured prominently as villains
    -Various Spirit Factions, such as Dire Maul, which should not have been ended so easily
    -Dark Iron, Blackrock Orcs, again another threat that was a very classic fantasy aesthetic pre-2010s, exhausted too quickly
    -Dragons, wont even go there with that mess
    -Removal of Mystery(The looming or ominous elements of old wow are just beaten down by exhaustion of material)
    -Emerald Dream
    -Caverns of Time/Infinite Dragonflight
    -Legion, don't get me started with the Star Wars
    -Lower tier Scourge/Legion covens
    -The Scarlet Crusade, an aweomse villain enterprise and potential Alliance villain point totally trashed
    -A lore friendly Pandaria
    -Friendly/Neutral factions that could feature more prominence, why not more Tranquillen type places as well?
    I think this list is more interesting than your original argument. These are indeed the best material that WoW has to offer and Blizzard has been neglecting them. What makes these stories better is that they're not tethered to single characters that move the plot forward. They're communities, tribes, factions in which the player can immerse. They can't be swayed by a bunch of well crafted cut-scenes in which the single representative of that place does something important and changes their fate forever.

    A large reason why Blizzard went astray in their storytelling is that they started using the same approach a team of writers would take to writing a television series. In a television series, the plot has to be driven by characters. 'A character-driven story is a good thing. A story driven by circumstances is a bad thing.'

    But a MMO requires the opposite approach. A massive world can and should be driven by circumstances rather than by the same troupe of protagonists that show up every expansion. Circumstances influence entire demographics, and in a game like WoW that creates the friction and conflict from which all the interesting stories spring forth.

    It sounds silly but one of the most memorable moments in WoW for me is the first time entering the Spires of Arak, where the refugees are making their way up the hill, trying to escape the place. Before knowing anything about the zone the player is thrown into a tense and tragic situation. To me, that's top tier storytelling:


  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    Yeah, that has been their strategy since WC II. They rewrite the lore to fit what they want to do for their next game and then release a corrected version of their "canon" a couple of years later to make everything sort of make sense again.
    I can see a revised "Chronicles" coming out...more books to buy to figure out what's going on ingame. *ka-ching*

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Athorha View Post
    I want undead to completely break off from the horde. Write the majority as holes and give players different avenues of finding unity away from their kin. Maybe even the more wild races follow a similar path of progression into a faction originating from another form of domination.
    There has been posts that encourage having more than two factions. But that would entail a near rewrite of most of the lore. I myself had an idea of 3 (4) factions with separate servers for testing gameplay. But my big issue has always been lore. And others critiquing what doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. And if I'm writing it then I need to hear such criticism.

  15. #55
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I can see a revised "Chronicles" coming out...more books to buy to figure out what's going on ingame. *ka-ching*
    Kind of already happened with the Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond. And I'm sure the next expansion will have a similar tome devoted to the Dragonflights.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Some of the First Ones are still alive. The fact that they are gone from Death realm doesn’t mean they are completely gone. It’s been like with Titans where we all thought they are dead.
    I think the point I was making flew right over your head. One of the tinfoil hat conspiracies is that shadowlands is actually a representation of a power struggle between former and current devs at Blizzard. The "First Ones" would be a reference to the first dev team and the Jailer would be Bobby Kotick probably. The different covenants represent different parts or factions of the current dev team.

    It's so close to being feasible with the complete garbage that we got for lore that I almost believe it's actually true. I find it hard to find anything redeeming about almost any of shadowlands lore, and there are several examples of characters or events that are clearly just some dev pushing a message.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kent088 View Post
    Hear me out
    Ok

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent088 View Post
    In short, the Horde is supposed to be this faction of well-natured tribals tied up with the baggage of evil opportunists. Wether you like it or not, the classic marketing of Warcraft and WoW is that the Alliance is the "good guys" and the Horde "the bad guys".
    I'm done. You don't know what you're talking about. You aren't wrong in that Blizzard couldn't care less about the lore, however the path you took is like someone who says 2 + 2 = lollipop + 4/3 -garden hose = 4

    Sure, you're right, but your method of getting there shows you guessed.


    The Horde did not start off evil. They were a group of tribes and outcasts who were being hunted to extinction by the "Good Guys" who banded together to be able to survive. Blizzard, because they don't care about the lore, spent expansion after expansion trying to turn them INTO the "Bad Guys", but keep trying to reset the story so they can do it again due to lack of better ideas. "Warchief decides to murder everyone and Green Jesus comes back to stop them and put the Horde back on the path of Righteousness" (how many times have they done that story?)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I think the point I was making flew right over your head. One of the tinfoil hat conspiracies is that shadowlands is actually a representation of a power struggle between former and current devs at Blizzard. The "First Ones" would be a reference to the first dev team and the Jailer would be Bobby Kotick probably. The different covenants represent different parts or factions of the current dev team.

    It's so close to being feasible with the complete garbage that we got for lore that I almost believe it's actually true. I find it hard to find anything redeeming about almost any of shadowlands lore, and there are several examples of characters or events that are clearly just some dev pushing a message.
    There is this thing called Projection......

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    I don't think thats controversial Blizz regularly ruins its lore and characters. Alex purposely ruined Sylvanas just to get at Danuser and the rest of the writers.
    A move I wholeheartedly support.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    There is this thing called Projection......
    I'm not sure you know what projection is. Are you suggesting that I make everything about myself and my fight against the people who came before me that I think the Blizzard devs are doing something similar? I was just referencing one of the conspiracies put out there as a joke. I do think if some of these devs could get away with it that they would create a whole expansion to serve their self-entitlement and market it with a thinly veiled story full of holes, but I don't really believe they could get away with it. Some things did peek through though, verified by comments from Blizzard stating that they wanted to put the previous story to rest and start fresh with Dragonflight. It's always possible to overanalyze things to justify a theory, and sometimes it's fun even if unrealistic.

    I really just think they are probably partially functionally illiterate and are bad at forming empathic and sympathetic bonds with the fictional characters created by the former devs. Much of the character development and new characters created this xpac came across as trying to create representation of themselves or ideals they cared about/hated. They veil this under the term 'character growth' when really they are drastically changing what these characters would have done based off past experience to fit the narrative that they currently want to push. This leads to a story and characters that are unbelievable and/or flat/stale, which is what we got. My theory isn't even a conspiracy, it's just a common occurrence in humans viewable by reading any fanfiction ever.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Ok



    I'm done. You don't know what you're talking about. You aren't wrong in that Blizzard couldn't care less about the lore, however the path you took is like someone who says 2 + 2 = lollipop + 4/3 -garden hose = 4

    Sure, you're right, but your method of getting there shows you guessed.


    The Horde did not start off evil. They were a group of tribes and outcasts who were being hunted to extinction by the "Good Guys" who banded together to be able to survive. Blizzard, because they don't care about the lore, spent expansion after expansion trying to turn them INTO the "Bad Guys", but keep trying to reset the story so they can do it again due to lack of better ideas. "Warchief decides to murder everyone and Green Jesus comes back to stop them and put the Horde back on the path of Righteousness" (how many times have they done that story?)
    Relax a bit alright, seriously

    The marketing of Blizzard was always that the Horde were the bad guys, but not evil. Think about in Marvel comics when the superheros constantly team up with villains to face a legitimately evil threat. They used Orcs, Forsaken, classic fantasy "villain" races, and featured prominently really dark themes in the Horde. The idea is that there is this other side to the Good that is bad and heavily flawed, but it's not malevolently evil. This was ALWAYS the case, with the Horde being the aggressors in every classic battleground, which is "bad", but with a motivated reason that isn't evil. (Ex: Emaciating Ashenvale for building materials, a legitimate reason for them, but somewhat invading and antagonizing the Night Elves native forests.) This is different from a Scourge like invasion that is hell bent on just causing destruction without discernment, or even intentionally for the purpose thereof. Out of game, they always dressed up the Horde to look like they were full of these aggressive, brutish races with morally grey approaches. This is not the same as Garrosh/Sylvanas Hitler arcs, but it's also quite different from the "woe is me" mentality that they write the Horde to be now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Honestly, the OP's post was actually really interesting to read. I personally thought that the Blood Elves were a great fit for the Horde in general (Garithos' actions were pretty extreme, I thought it was totally believable they left the Alliance because of it), but I can certainly roll with the idea of them having remained on the Alliance, as well.
    I mean, we all know his actions were extreme, but he was also a rogue general that antagonized the other non-human racists of the Alliance, AND was directly a short term ally of the very forsaken that the Blood Elves found to be "their closest ally", while the rest of the Alliance was rather suspicious and weary of him. If anything, that is justification for the Blood Elves, an arrogant, xenophobic, bitter race to be additionally opposed to the Forsaken and Horde. At least the Alliance could wave the card that they really weren't politically able to depose him at that time or that they had major disagreements with his approach, where the Forsaken were quite supportive of him from time to time.

    There is another point I want to mention too: The absolute hatred the blood elves had of non-humans and non-dwarves was intensified at its worst towards the Undead, for the same reason as the Humans: The Scourge invasion, and any well-written character would be incredibly suspicious of any Forsaken, even ones that claimed free will and were fighting the Scourge. Just because your beloved ranger general is the leader does not mean they should be friends.

    On second thought, it would have actually been an interesting idea if Quel'Thalas was released as a higher level Vanilla or TBC zone where remnant Blood Elves who didn't join Kael'Thas are an antagonistic race towards the two factions. Maybe even a Silvermoon raid? Originally all of the Blood Elves were supposed to have joined Kael, so this would be a retcon that wouldn't be too far fetched. Maybe have the blood elves be this fel-touched race that followed Kael into the Outlands, and have Quel'Thalas be a high elf starting zone with a storyline on cleaning up and retaking the homeland in ruins from invasion and abandonment.

    I guess I'm post-hoc rationalizing why the blood elves should have been in the Alliance, because the blood elves were written in such a way where with every expansion it just made increasingly less sense for them to be in the Horde. Even Blizzard admitted that with the whole "Lor'Themar tried negotiating a faction change" but "Oops lets make Jaina go crazy and commit political coup of Dalaran". Like why even waste time with that?
    Last edited by Kent088; 2022-06-24 at 03:35 AM.

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