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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    As you are supposed to, or you want to go back raiding Molten Core while you are in AQ40? Raiding Normal <new raid that just released> is 10 times more interesting than raiding the 1 year old raid for the 70th time.
    Neither is good. You are generally a remarkably dishonest person, and this is a great example of how. Instead of asking me what alternative I prefer, you ASSUME and alternative I never advocated for and rail against that instead. It's the definition of a straw man.

    Inflation is non-existent, the game design has changed to seasonal 10 years ago, said this to you before, a person returning and being able to catch up in a few days is their design for the whole system, they said this back when ICC dungeons proved sucessful and the design was expanded upon.
    There is objectively a lot of gear inflation. This isn't debatable. It's a fact. Gear inflation is not required to have a seasonal model. What an absurd argument. Plenty of other games have similar models and don't have the inflation problem.

    I agree that this is a legit problem cause we had this issue multiple times the last 7 years, but at the same time there is a very thin line between an ability becoming "irrelevant", basically for this to be fixed completely they just have to completely remove soak mechanics by number of people which is actually a worse solution.
    There are other solutions, such as simply not having flex and going back to fixed group sizes, which is preferable for balance. It's not a perfect solution and it does have tradeoffs.

    LFR is literally there for people to see the graphic design and the area, and experience what it "feels" like to raid without actually being challenged, its not there to replace guild raiding, just because it replaces guild raiding for burnt out players or non-evolving players, doesnt mean is its purprose. You are still supposed to guild up and do organized raiding, thats why Normal is called "Friends and Family" difficulty, even by them, themselves.
    None of that is an excuse for it not being fun or interesting. This is a common problem that wow-lifers run into. You guys often have a lot of trouble understanding that challenge is not the only path to fun, because the wow developers seem terminally incapable of using any other method to make content fun. Easy content should be fun too, and it is in plenty of other games.

    Yes, this happens and doesnt, i mean this by the fact that we end up clearing the full raid in 2 hours eventually, so its a skill based/learning issue, not as much the raid, although i would prefer if they split the raids so i can choose where to focus etc during progress so i can agree with you, but end result is more like that people are slow to learn.
    The problem is in the beginning, not in the farm stage.

    ToC is the worst voted raid ever for this reason, some trash is okay, Sepulcher trash volume isnt, generally i agree with you but i am pretty sure our opinion is based around the fact you only want to play a certain time and not a second over, i am the same, most people arent.
    ToC was low rated because it was aesthetically boring, very short, came after a masterpiece raid, and had a terrible model that encouraged running it over and over and over again every week. This again falls into the bucket of things that you assume can't be better because Blizzard is bad at doing it any other way.

    Which is good, cause majority of guilds, are not good enough to clear the content when its intended, getting the extra gear helps them clear it, if Vault didnt exist to gear up my better players to carry the worst players i wouldnt be playing WoW for years now.
    You mean you need overlapping difficulties to account for the obnoxious gear inflation you claimed doesn't exist?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Be realistic about it: they won't tune it "properly", because 1. they cater to the wf crowd; 2. time gating with difficulty (which is slowly decreased over time) is good for MAUs or whatever. Take a hard look at the nerf numbers: those are not 5% nerfs, but 30-90% nerfs. The only solution that COULD work is a solution that will: still allow them to have their silly little esport competition; and that will help keep people subbed. They already have the solution in the form of m+ - like I've said, people run them long after getting BiS gear just for the bragging rights; all they'd had to do is to fit it somehow into raiding. Instead, they opt to intentionally overtune raids and slowly nerf them later, so more people are able to complete them. Looking at Sepulcher, we probably had 10+ difficulty levels this patch, depending on when you tried to clear it. .
    sadly that's true they have left themselves between a rock and a hard place by not doing so tho, i do need to ask tho what do bragging rights have to do wiht normal and hc tuning tho?

    if blizzard just tuned normal and heroic for the 95% of the player base that its meant for we wouldn't even be having this discussion would we?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Just remove LFR. Make normal slightly easier. Keep HC and Mythic as they are.
    that's the worst idea I've heard as may ppl don't want to deal with toxicity of pug raid leaders and demands that you clear the raid week 1 or you cant join any pugs and people don't want to join a raid leader at that point if you haven't cleared the raid either

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    As they were when exactly? On release day? Two weeks later? Month later? Three months later?
    You have to be specific which HC and Mythic do you have in mind, because we had many.
    Basically any tier except Sepulcher. Sepulcher is just way too overtuned, even after the nerfs. Blizzard would still be nerfing raids gradually anyway.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There are numerous serious problems with the current raid design:

    1. It encourages farming one difficulty to get through the higher difficulty.
    2. It causes huge amounts of gear inflation.
    3. Flex actually makes running small groups very difficult.
    4. Since each difficulty is a watered down version of the next highest one, LFR ends up feeling incredibly bland and uninteresting.
    5. The raids are generally so large that it is difficult to have a relaxed raid schedule.
    6. We are still fighting trash and running back to our corpses in 2022.
    7. There is way too much overlap in difficulties because there are too many settings

    I don't think the OPs suggestion necessarily solves any of these problems, but the current model is probably the worst one they have ever had and it is amazing that it has gone on this long without being fixed.
    Lfr is NOT for raidera. It is for casuals who cant raid but want to see the content. Hate to say it but lfr was originally designed so the bad player could feel a false sense of accomplishment, even if they are doing the equivelent difficult as a daily.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    sadly that's true they have left themselves between a rock and a hard place by not doing so tho, i do need to ask tho what do bragging rights have to do wiht normal and hc tuning tho?

    if blizzard just tuned normal and heroic for the 95% of the player base that its meant for we wouldn't even be having this discussion would we?

    - - - Updated - - -



    that's the worst idea I've heard as may ppl don't want to deal with toxicity of pug raid leaders and demands that you clear the raid week 1 or you cant join any pugs and people don't want to join a raid leader at that point if you haven't cleared the raid either
    You can make your own group. Toxicity also exists in raidfinder. HC is too hard for the casual F&F guilds. Removing HC would leave semi-serious people in the dirt. Making normal slightly easier removes the barrier for people to join and will also reduce toxicity (note that toxicity can't ever be eliminated completely).
    The only other option I can think of is to remove normal and make LFR a bit harder (not removing key abilities).

    This is just what I would like to see. I would indeed never expect blizzard to actually remove LFR. I think they will keep the current structure of difficulties for a long time. Making individual difficulties harder/easier is the only thing I can realistically see them do.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    You can make your own group. Toxicity also exists in raidfinder. HC is too hard for the casual F&F guilds. Removing HC would leave semi-serious people in the dirt. Making normal slightly easier removes the barrier for people to join and will also reduce toxicity (note that toxicity can't ever be eliminated completely).
    The only other option I can think of is to remove normal and make LFR a bit harder (not removing key abilities).

    This is just what I would like to see. I would indeed never expect blizzard to actually remove LFR. I think they will keep the current structure of difficulties for a long time. Making individual difficulties harder/easier is the only thing I can realistically see them do.

    i cant see blizz removing lfr either as it would remove MOST of their player base form the raiding scene which would result in loss of $$.

    and yes people cant make their own grp and lead it but sadly form the pugging experience i've come to notice that some people that are making a grp have 0 clue what going on in a fight there for cant raid lead it.

    take skolex as an example the leader need to place marks for stacking for the burrow and sort the soaking grps, the amount of raid leaders getting tanks to pull the boss without those 2 sorted is quite high resulting in a never ending cycle of people leaving the grps then eventual disband.

    as for making normal easier this teirs normal was harder than any other teirs normal on record since multiple difficulties became a thing, and I've been playing since mid bc

  7. #27
    No. There is no reason to do this. Lfr is great for ppl afraid of the lfg interface. Normal is great for casuals first step into a real raid. Heroic is great for most guilds that want to have something to progress thru without super try harding. And mythic is great for the very top end.

    Each one serves a purpose. The majority of ppl that complain are just mad that there are difficulties too hard for them that drop loot they can't get and then cry about how other games do it. Anyone that brings up one of those other games, can simply be ignored.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i cant see blizz removing lfr either as it would remove MOST of their player base form the raiding scene which would result in loss of $$.

    and yes people cant make their own grp and lead it but sadly form the pugging experience i've come to notice that some people that are making a grp have 0 clue what going on in a fight there for cant raid lead it.

    take skolex as an example the leader need to place marks for stacking for the burrow and sort the soaking grps, the amount of raid leaders getting tanks to pull the boss without those 2 sorted is quite high resulting in a never ending cycle of people leaving the grps then eventual disband.

    as for making normal easier this teirs normal was harder than any other teirs normal on record since multiple difficulties became a thing, and I've been playing since mid bc
    Yes normal easier as in... Any normal from before 9.2. Sepulcher should not be used as a benchmark, I agree :P

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Lfr is NOT for raidera. It is for casuals who cant raid but want to see the content. Hate to say it but lfr was originally designed so the bad player could feel a false sense of accomplishment, even if they are doing the equivelent difficult as a daily.
    None of that requires it being boring.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #30
    Mythic+ for raids would be dope. Infinite difficulty, why not.

  11. #31
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    No thanks.

    Keep them as they are, and then make the last season of each expansion have some crazy shit happen.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Just remove LFR. Make normal slightly easier. Keep HC and Mythic as they are.
    The key point to LFR isn't the difficulty. It's the automated groupmaking. LFR and Normal have different target audiences.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There are numerous serious problems with the current raid design:

    1. It encourages farming one difficulty to get through the higher difficulty.
    2. It causes huge amounts of gear inflation.
    3. Flex actually makes running small groups very difficult.
    4. Since each difficulty is a watered down version of the next highest one, LFR ends up feeling incredibly bland and uninteresting.
    5. The raids are generally so large that it is difficult to have a relaxed raid schedule.
    6. We are still fighting trash and running back to our corpses in 2022.
    7. There is way too much overlap in difficulties because there are too many settings

    I don't think the OPs suggestion necessarily solves any of these problems, but the current model is probably the worst one they have ever had and it is amazing that it has gone on this long without being fixed.
    1. That's not a negative
    2. Only because Blizzard wants people to move on from the previous patch asap
    3. Agreed. Remove flex and return to 10 and 20 man groups
    4. Good. It is too easy for the loot it gives
    5. Unless you're progressing you can easily clear it in an evening
    6. And?
    7. There's only 3, and out of those only 2 are flex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  14. #34
    I think season 4 is the perfect solution.

    1. Remove Normal.
    2. Rename current Heroic to Normal.
    3. Mythic should be a lot easier from start, make the RWF event a 3-4 days event tops and CE accessible for at least top 500 guilds within 1 month.
    4. Season 4 in each expansion just a summary of the raids with the same Season 4 system like Shadowlands. This also allows for development time for the next expansion earlier.

  15. #35
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Turn LFR into pure story-mode with only cosmetic rewards, nothing related to item level. Make it to the point where it can be one person with 24-bots or whatever. Bump up Normal difficulty slightly, then leave it as-is. Then bump up Heroic difficulty and do the same. Remove Mythic. Done!

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    sadly that's true they have left themselves between a rock and a hard place by not doing so tho, i do need to ask tho what do bragging rights have to do wiht normal and hc tuning tho?
    You need content designed specifically for bragging rights (like m+ high level keys, which do not provide any additional rewards, so basically everything above 15 is done for bragging rights), because it keeps people subbed. Tuning raid content properly is not enough - in fact, it's even worse from the MAUs perspective, becasue the skilled portion of the playerbase will complete it even faster and unsub (complaining that it's "braindead easy" or whatever, because it doesn't take 300 pulls to kill a boss). So this is not something that Blizzard would probably consider, not in the current environment. However, with keystone raid scaling you have an evergreen content: you can tune the +15 equivalent "properly" (meaning: you don't have to go overboard with the difficulty) for "normal" players who are there mostly for gear, and the wf crowd can flex epeen by doing Jailer +23 or whatever. In my opinion, everyone wins (well, maybe not the people who will complain about any change at all, because supposedly everything is already perfect).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You need content designed specifically for bragging rights (like m+ high level keys, which do not provide any additional rewards, so basically everything above 15 is done for bragging rights), because it keeps people subbed. Tuning raid content properly is not enough - in fact, it's even worse from the MAUs perspective, becasue the skilled portion of the playerbase will complete it even faster and unsub (complaining that it's "braindead easy" or whatever, because it doesn't take 300 pulls to kill a boss). So this is not something that Blizzard would probably consider, not in the current environment. However, with keystone raid scaling you have an evergreen content: you can tune the +15 equivalent "properly" (meaning: you don't have to go overboard with the difficulty) for "normal" players who are there mostly for gear, and the wf crowd can flex epeen by doing Jailer +23 or whatever. In my opinion, everyone wins (well, maybe not the people who will complain about any change at all, because supposedly everything is already perfect).
    i think you have miss understood me here what i'm saying is tune normal and heroic for those that its meant for and then tune mythic for the best of the best if heroic is to easy for the masses then there's always mythic to give them the challenge that they are looing for, also be4 you even start with "guilds don't do mythic because of the logistical nightmare of try to get 20 people together" to that i say logistics has nothing to do with the difficulty of a raid!

    its all well and good for some do normal and other to do jailor +23 as you put it but when you have heroic overturned to the extent that it needs as much nerfs as its had then there's a problem

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i think you have miss understood me here what i'm saying is tune normal and heroic for those that its meant for and then tune mythic for the best of the best if heroic is to easy for the masses then there's always mythic to give them the challenge that they are looing for, also be4 you even start with "guilds don't do mythic because of the logistical nightmare of try to get 20 people together" to that i say logistics has nothing to do with the difficulty of a raid!

    its all well and good for some do normal and other to do jailor +23 as you put it but when you have heroic overturned to the extent that it needs as much nerfs as its had then there's a problem
    But those nerfs going around are not targeted at normal/heroic only - in fact, mythic had the most nerfs of all. It's a mistake to think that people who try mythic are all super skilled hardcore raiders. In the mythic crowd, gradation of skill is also huge - that's why they have to nerf it so much. So the problem is equally big for every difficulty out there, and while balancing the raid for specific crowd - be it normal, heroic or mythic - you will always have to decide: how hard should it be? Meaning: how many people should be able to complete it? If you make it too easy, some of the mythic raiders will call in breaindead easy; if you don't, most of them won't be able to do it (that's how they do it currently: tune it super tight, nerf later).

    Why all the fuss? It's time consuming to do it like that, and it's always prone to mistakes. Keystone system however balances itself: you simply stop at the level that's appropriate for you group. No need to nerf it at all (outside of obvious outliers, bugs or whatever) - good players will simply get further than average players, and average players will get further than bad players. Make the best rewards attainable as easily as 15+ rewards (it doesn't even have to be called Heroic raid, because with keystone scaling - and level 0 being the current normal - you don't really need more difficulty levels). Yes, you still need SOME skill, but not to the point of it being frustrating. And if you want to push yourself to the limit: go for it, nothing stops you, no artificial barrier.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    But those nerfs going around are not targeted at normal/heroic only - in fact, mythic had the most nerfs of all. It's a mistake to think that people who try mythic are all super skilled hardcore raiders. In the mythic crowd, gradation of skill is also huge - that's why they have to nerf it so much. So the problem is equally big for every difficulty out there, and while balancing the raid for specific crowd - be it normal, heroic or mythic - you will always have to decide: how hard should it be? Meaning: how many people should be able to complete it? If you make it too easy, some of the mythic raiders will call in breaindead easy; if you don't, most of them won't be able to do it (that's how they do it currently: tune it super tight, nerf later).

    Why all the fuss? It's time consuming to do it like that, and it's always prone to mistakes. Keystone system however balances itself: you simply stop at the level that's appropriate for you group. No need to nerf it at all (outside of obvious outliers, bugs or whatever) - good players will simply get further than average players, and average players will get further than bad players. Make the best rewards attainable as easily as 15+ rewards (it doesn't even have to be called Heroic raid, because with keystone scaling - and level 0 being the current normal - you don't really need more difficulty levels). Yes, you still need SOME skill, but not to the point of it being frustrating. And if you want to push yourself to the limit: go for it, nothing stops you, no artificial barrier.
    fair enough but regardless, the level that blizzard tuned hc and even mythic at was way off the mark the fact that they had to do this may nerfs targeted or not shows how off the mark blizzard are with gauging the skill level of their players.

    something needs to be done about the fact that heroic for the majority of players isnt meant to take 2-3 months to complete unless they are seriously misunderstanding key mechanic's.

    i dont think i have ever seen a low kill count for the last boss on a hc raid from the 2nd to 5th week of a raid than i have seen for jailor. that means 1 of 2 things either jailor was over tuned or lords and ryeglon was overturned blocking players progression heck i could be wrong and it was both

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    1. That's not a negative
    It absolutely is. Nobody should have to do a difficulty they aren't trying to clear.

    2. Only because Blizzard wants people to move on from the previous patch asap
    There are other solutions to this problem that don't cause gear inflation. The root cause is the volume of difficulty settings.

    3. Agreed. Remove flex and return to 10 and 20 man groups


    4. Good. It is too easy for the loot it gives
    You need to take a step back from the cartoon video game about talking cow ladies and ask yourself if you are investing too much of your ego in it if "IT SHOULDN'T BE FUN" is an argument you seriously think should compel anyone.

    5. Unless you're progressing you can easily clear it in an evening
    "Once you can do it fast, it isn't a problem!" Well, yeah....

    6. And?
    And fighting trash and doing corpse runs is boring, outdated game design.

    7. There's only 3, and out of those only 2 are flex.
    There are four, and three is also too many. One or two is the maximum needed.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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