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  1. #1
    Warchief shade3891's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Reduce raid difficulties to 2 and add keystones for raids.

    LFR + Normal can be enough..

    Clearing the all bosses in a normal raid should grant you a raid-keystone in your next weeks chest. Enabling you to increase the difficulty on a normal raid and increase the rewards from all bosses. If you already have a keystone your current key is upgraded with +1 if the keystone used was higher or equal to yours.

    Only the raidleader can activate his or her keystone. The keystone can not be depleted. Only a raidleader can terminate the effects of an active keystone.

    (LFR should never grant keystones)
    Last edited by shade3891; 2022-06-21 at 11:05 AM.

  2. #2
    I'd say LFR, Normal & Mythic (with Mythic still being base difficulty level, like m0). Other than that, yeah, I'd love to see some kind of raid keystone mechanic. It would, I think, completely change the current raid design dynamic: tune it for a handful of wf guilds, then nerf it to the ground week after week. There would be no such need; people would simply push for as high as they can in their respective groups.

    Also, the raid equivalent of +15 should be quite achievable for the average player, just like +15 is. For flexing rights you can go as far as you're able to.

  3. #3
    Yes, lets see if they can split the community even more! fantastic idea! newcomers will have a grand time when everyone raids mythic 15

  4. #4
    There is nothing wrong with the raid design, stop trying to change it.

    LFR has a reason to exist, the same way Mythic has a reason to exist, just because every now and then they overtune Mythic on purprose to delay things, it doesnt affect anyone but 40-100 people , and maybe 500 other players after the first fixes, and the rest kill completely different bosses, like with the latest changes where the nerfs are simply too much.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the raid design, stop trying to change it.

    LFR has a reason to exist, the same way Mythic has a reason to exist, just because every now and then they overtune Mythic on purprose to delay things, it doesnt affect anyone but 40-100 people , and maybe 500 other players after the first fixes, and the rest kill completely different bosses, like with the latest changes where the nerfs are simply too much.
    There are numerous serious problems with the current raid design:

    1. It encourages farming one difficulty to get through the higher difficulty.
    2. It causes huge amounts of gear inflation.
    3. Flex actually makes running small groups very difficult.
    4. Since each difficulty is a watered down version of the next highest one, LFR ends up feeling incredibly bland and uninteresting.
    5. The raids are generally so large that it is difficult to have a relaxed raid schedule.
    6. We are still fighting trash and running back to our corpses in 2022.
    7. There is way too much overlap in difficulties because there are too many settings

    I don't think the OPs suggestion necessarily solves any of these problems, but the current model is probably the worst one they have ever had and it is amazing that it has gone on this long without being fixed.
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  6. #6
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    can people stop putting forward this nonsensical idea of changing/removing raid difficulties.

    THEY ARE FINE!

    LFR is staying, Mythic is staying, Normal and Heroic are staying.

  7. #7
    Oh boy i cant wait to see what asmongold will cry about in 2 months from now for views to see the next shitposts in here.

  8. #8
    i personally think 4 difficulty's is to many 1 should be removed and my vote goes to either normal or hc, there's no reason for both to exist imo as for raid key stones that's a straight no from me

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i personally think 4 difficulty's is to many 1 should be removed and my vote goes to either normal or hc, there's no reason for both to exist imo as for raid key stones that's a straight no from me
    The reason for so many difficulty levels is simple: gradation of skill. The difference in skill between wf players playing this game for literal years vs newcomers is not big, not even huge - it's immense. Scrapping normal right now would destroy many f&f guilds; scrapping heroic would destroy an important stepping stone between that and mythic (and many people are simply not good enough for mythic, but normal is still too easy for them).

    If anything, we need MORE difficulty levels, so every player can do content that's challenging, but not overly frustrating.
    And essentially, we HAVE more difficulty levels - the Sepulcher you go raid today is nowhere close to the Sepulcher on release day (and we had many, many iterations of nerfs between now and then, so esentially many difficulty levels of the raid). Question is, is this an efficient and transparent way of grading the difficulty for different players? Obviously, it's not. Now m+ on the other hand "handles itself" - you simply go as far as you can, with the difficulty level slowly rising. If you had that for raids, no nerfs would be needed, ever.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shade3891 View Post
    LFR + Normal can be enough..

    Clearing the all bosses in a normal raid should grant you a raid-keystone in your next weeks chest. Enabling you to increase the difficulty on a normal raid and increase the rewards from all bosses. If you already have a keystone your current key is upgraded with +1 if the keystone used was higher or equal to yours.

    Only the raidleader can activate his or her keystone. The keystone can not be depleted. Only a raidleader can terminate the effects of an active keystone.

    (LFR should never grant keystones)
    Sorry but that's a bad idea, also accompanied by several oddly specific implementation aspects and no clear benefits.

    Just reduce it to LFR "Training mode", normal/hc normal mode, and a transmog/mount mode that droos gear equal to normal/heroic but is a tightly tuned challenge, like current mythic.

    It'd reduce the statgrowth-bloat by two tiers to two in total, it could even be reduced to just one tier of item quality per raid if LFR just drops normal level raid at a vastly reduced rate / drops a scant amount of tokens for the eventual purchase of normal level gear.

    And hey presto; less absurd power differences in pvp and pve, less rng dependancy, less burnout due to being forced to do the same shit far too many times. Also less time wasted on tuning; challenge mode expects you to come in nearly fully geared, so no need to cater to a range of gear levels, also it can be tuned tightly to hell and back because no one needs to finish that shit for an even playing field. Oh and people retain a reason to do LFR if they so desire.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the raid design, stop trying to change it.
    A lot is wrong with the current raid design. One thing that's wrong is that the raid difficulty is only relevant for so long - so if you want to try & handle the "proper" Sepulcher, you HAVE TO raid on release; you HAVE TO be ready for it & you HAVE TO be very active for the first couple of weeks, because those nerfs are coming! (And boy, those are some nerfs !). If you can't, bad luck - joining the game right now, you can try and tackle the version that's live today, which is not even close to what it was. Why would that be good in any shape or form? The difficulty should be relevant for the whole damn patch!

    Going m+ route, you guarantee just that. Nobody is nerfing m+ so people struggling in 15s can suddenly do 25s - you simply go as high as you can and that's how you showcase your skills.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There are numerous serious problems with the current raid design:

    1. It encourages farming one difficulty to get through the higher difficulty. As you are supposed to, or you want to go back raiding Molten Core while you are in AQ40? Raiding Normal <new raid that just released> is 10 times more interesting than raiding the 1 year old raid for the 70th time.

    2. It causes huge amounts of gear inflation. Inflation is non-existent, the game design has changed to seasonal 10 years ago, said this to you before, a person returning and being able to catch up in a few days is their design for the whole system, they said this back when ICC dungeons proved sucessful and the design was expanded upon.

    3. Flex actually makes running small groups very difficult. I agree that this is a legit problem cause we had this issue multiple times the last 7 years, but at the same time there is a very thin line between an ability becoming "irrelevant", basically for this to be fixed completely they just have to completely remove soak mechanics by number of people which is actually a worse solution.

    4. Since each difficulty is a watered down version of the next highest one, LFR ends up feeling incredibly bland and uninteresting. LFR is literally there for people to see the graphic design and the area, and experience what it "feels" like to raid without actually being challenged, its not there to replace guild raiding, just because it replaces guild raiding for burnt out players or non-evolving players, doesnt mean is its purprose. You are still supposed to guild up and do organized raiding, thats why Normal is called "Friends and Family" difficulty, even by them, themselves.

    5. The raids are generally so large that it is difficult to have a relaxed raid schedule. Yes, this happens and doesnt, i mean this by the fact that we end up clearing the full raid in 2 hours eventually, so its a skill based/learning issue, not as much the raid, although i would prefer if they split the raids so i can choose where to focus etc during progress so i can agree with you, but end result is more like that people are slow to learn.

    6. We are still fighting trash and running back to our corpses in 2022. ToC is the worst voted raid ever for this reason, some trash is okay, Sepulcher trash volume isnt, generally i agree with you but i am pretty sure our opinion is based around the fact you only want to play a certain time and not a second over, i am the same, most people arent.

    7. There is way too much overlap in difficulties because there are too many settings Which is good, cause majority of guilds, are not good enough to clear the content when its intended, getting the extra gear helps them clear it, if Vault didnt exist to gear up my better players to carry the worst players i wouldnt be playing WoW for years now.


    I don't think the OPs suggestion necessarily solves any of these problems, but the current model is probably the worst one they have ever had and it is amazing that it has gone on this long without being fixed.
    Marked with red

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    A lot is wrong with the current raid design. One thing that's wrong is that the raid difficulty is only relevant for so long - so if you want to try & handle the "proper" Sepulcher, you HAVE TO raid on release; you HAVE TO be ready for it & you HAVE TO be very active for the first couple of weeks, because those nerfs are coming! (And boy, those are some nerfs !). If you can't, bad luck - joining the game right now, you can try and tackle the version that's live today, which is not even close to what it was. Why would that be good in any shape or form? The difficulty should be relevant for the whole damn patch!

    Going m+ route, you guarantee just that. Nobody is nerfing m+ so people struggling in 15s can suddenly do 25s - you simply go as high as you can and that's how you showcase your skills.
    M+ is always nerfed what are you talking about They change things all the time, usually either massively at the first few days, cause they fucked up the scaling or certain bosses/mechanics as they did the last few weeks.

    The problem with your raid logic is that you want to return and skip content because you think you should join HC raiding instantly cause thats you wanna do, which is what active good players do, as example i started Sepulcher with 252, i needed 0 items from Normal, good thing m+ exists, doesnt mean my guild didnt need.

    And the second part, the nerfs come for a reason, people are not good enough to do content they try to do, could write more about this, but thats basically it.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-06-21 at 12:32 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    M+ is always nerfed what are you talking about They change things all the time, usually either massively at the first few days, cause they fucked up the scaling or certain bosses/mechanics as they did the last few weeks.
    The reason for those nerfs is completely different, though. They nerfs outliers in m+, they nerf things they have screwed up. Raids are bing nerfed for the sole reason to allow more people to handle them. It's a bad form of "time gating", so to speak. Since raids are often a "one & done" thing (many guilds will stop raiding after killing the last Mythic boss), you make them artificially difficult so people who are not the best wipe for weeks and stay subbed. But since you can't let them quit out of frustration, week after week you nerf the thing, to allow them to kill maybe one boss more, give them hope that with this wave of nerfs they will be finally able to do it.

    Do you see it as a good design? If they didn't nerf Sepulcher so often, even more people would have quit early.

    Now take a look at m+. People push for fun, they don't need any other form of motivation - they just want to test themselves and rank high. If you had that for raids, the "race" wouldn't be finished after two weeks, like usual. The difficulty should stay relevant for the whole patch and then even the best of the best have reason to raid late into the patch, to maybe try & kill Jailer +23 or whatever. It gives content longevity without the need to artificially up the difficulty and then slowly decrease it to allow more people to finish it.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-06-21 at 12:45 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post

    Do you see it as a good design? If they didn't nerf Sepulcher so often, even more people would have quit early.
    You are describing 10 different things that i cant expand upon cause i am at work, and same time cant be bothered explaining for you to just say "No".

    But a quick word about it, comparing the burnt out top world guild that prepares for months and has multiple characters ready, playing and raiding 12 hours for 2 weeks in a row, with the average pleb that plays this game, and that they are somehow anyway relevant to clearing content is silly and simply shows you are just trying to mix things in order to prove yourself right, which by default, makes you wrong.

    If the content is killable the second week, it means its mathematically possible, if its tightly tuned it doesnt mean anything, its killable.

    M+ is the same, all the changes you have seen the last few weeks is about irrelevant +25 runs, and +30s, not for the joke as fuck content +15, those nerfs to M+ that will affect the majority of the players, come early on, they just dont affect you cause you are not there yet to experience them, Plaguefall is a great example of this, of how they massively nerfed pretty much every magical attack second week of the expansion because after +10-12 they simply did too much damage to some tanks that couldnt kite them 24/7.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-06-21 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If anything, we need MORE difficulty levels, so every player can do content that's challenging, but not overly frustrating.
    And essentially, we HAVE more difficulty levels - the Sepulcher you go raid today is nowhere close to the Sepulcher on release day (and we had many, many iterations of nerfs between now and then, so esentially many difficulty levels of the raid). Question is, is this an efficient and transparent way of grading the difficulty for different players? Obviously, it's not. Now m+ on the other hand "handles itself" - you simply go as far as you can, with the difficulty level slowly rising. If you had that for raids, no nerfs would be needed, ever.
    i actually disagree wiht this we wouldn't need nerfs if they were tuned properly in the 1st place instead of hc and even to some extent normal being stupidly overtuned weeks 1 and 2 to appease the top 1-5% of player or for blizz to try and brake split runs.

    i have a way to destroy split runs without destroying the raid for huge amount of people without it being unnecessarily and overwhelmingly difficult and that's simply to have account wide lock outs for the raid ONLY during the world first race

  16. #16
    If they were going to eliminate raid difficulties, then there would be LFR and raids would be designed like they were back in Vanilla/TBC with the only difference being the 10-30 flexing.

    But they're not going to do that since Mythic was created specifically to bring back the Vanilla/TBC raiding design.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i actually disagree wiht this we wouldn't need nerfs if they were tuned properly in the 1st place instead of hc and even to some extent normal being stupidly overtuned weeks 1 and 2 to appease the top 1-5% of player or for blizz to try and brake split runs
    Be realistic about it: they won't tune it "properly", because 1. they cater to the wf crowd; 2. time gating with difficulty (which is slowly decreased over time) is good for MAUs or whatever. Take a hard look at the nerf numbers: those are not 5% nerfs, but 30-90% nerfs. The only solution that COULD work is a solution that will: still allow them to have their silly little esport competition; and that will help keep people subbed. They already have the solution in the form of m+ - like I've said, people run them long after getting BiS gear just for the bragging rights; all they'd had to do is to fit it somehow into raiding. Instead, they opt to intentionally overtune raids and slowly nerf them later, so more people are able to complete them. Looking at Sepulcher, we probably had 10+ difficulty levels this patch, depending on when you tried to clear it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You are describing 10 different things that i cant expand upon cause i am at work, and same time cant be bothered explaining for you to just say "No".
    That's cool, the proof is in the pudding anyway. Looking at the amount and severity of the recent nerfs it's pretty clear the raids are overtuned on purpose and later nerfed to keep people subbed for longer. If you don't tune the difficulty absurdly high, the silly wf race is gone as everything goes down on first rest; if you do, the vast, vast majority of players will be unable to finish them, so you need to introduce artificial difficulty levels by nerfing the raid every other week. Can't see how that can be a good design.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-06-21 at 01:21 PM.

  18. #18
    Just remove LFR. Make normal slightly easier. Keep HC and Mythic as they are.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Just remove LFR. Make normal slightly easier. Keep HC and Mythic as they are.
    As they were when exactly? On release day? Two weeks later? Month later? Three months later?
    You have to be specific which HC and Mythic do you have in mind, because we had many.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    jesus fuck people they won't remove LFR, it's the most populated raiding format. Mythic would get the axe way sooner since almost no one does it, it's only good for twitch views and the esport meme - which is why it also won't be removed, activision drinks the esport koolaid like water, making esports before making games.

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