Reduce raid difficulties to 2 and add keystones for raids.

[huth]

Can't have mythic. It's a fix raid size that is different from the others. It's the odd one out.
Honestly... mythic is just there for the world first race and it's a humongous waste of resources.

Something like the OP suggests kind of solves that issue partly. It makes it content for all and still allows the try hards to flex.

The main resource cost is making the instance. The various difficulties are trivial in comparison.

[avx81]

This is not a complicated issue to "fix". Statistically speaking the least amount of players are doing mythic or completing it successfully. It is an incredible waste of time for Blizzard to spend the development time to create extra mechanics and tune mythic. As of right now there is only ~300 guilds that have killed mythic jailer. Compared to normal over 9k guilds have killed normal jailer. This is not a total anomaly. Generally speaking very few players are clearing the last few bosses of a mythic raid.

The biggest majority of players are doing either LFR or normal. I would personally rather see Blizzard cut down to 2 difficulties. LFR and a normal mode with optional hard mode boss unlocks like Ulduar. The hard mode encounters would introduce some new mechanic to a boss fight and the rewards would be purely cosmetic or mounts. As for M+ rewards would be capped at a +10 instead of a +15 like it was for a good amount of legion to curb scaling.

[hulkgor]

"2 difficulties is enough" \\\\\ "add keystones"

lol

[CaptainV]

2 difficulties *is* enough, but frankly theres no need for a mythic+ for raiding, what they need is simply normal (LFR) and Heroic (Mythic)

WoW had 2 difficulties since TBC unoffically, but technically from wrath to MoP.

The thing is, theres a reason heroic works and mythic doesnt.

Heroic was challenging but accessable, in this era where raiding has long passed its glory day and only the loud vocal minority actually still care for it, its actually hurting the game to keep patches back so more raid difficulties can be balanced around to the point that some raids werent even balanced properly, look at the final raid of Shadowlands for no better example.

Sometimes its better to just make things smaller and simpler, because then you can have more of them.

Let me honestly, honestly ask raiders this:

Why does the end game story content need to revolve around you? Why cant we have side contents like Zul'aman again that are pure filler that are just raids for people who care about raiding?

The answer is because Ion runs the game, and Ion being leader of the elitist jerks is a raider.

The problem is raiding in general just isnt fun, its not been fun for years because difficulties have been made harder to newer players and ultimatley raiding is a niche only the old elite still care about.

Theres a reason you will still struggle to this day to find people interested in mythic, and its because people dont care for it.

If raiding was knocked from 4 difficulties to 2, we'd have significantly more people trying to raid and thus, raiding itself would grow.

Furthermore, it also means more raids in general can be added over an expansions life time, some might just be 2-3 bosses and some could be 5-7 or 10-11.

Raiding could easily be made more accessable and frankly should be more accessable, rather than trying to constantly gatekeep the content that has been generally going down the drain for years.

That being said, should HEROIC be hard, yes, absoleutley, I think the first boss should be there as an entry point to make those that are new to heroic feel welcome, then it should progressively get more bullshit until the final boss which at that point it should feel like a genuine challenge.

But normal raiding should feel laughably accessable, the first boss of normal shouldnt even be LFR tier, simply an introduction to raiding itself with the final boss being the closest thing to heroic, giving people a taste of hard content so they feel ready to start entering it by the end of normals natural flow.

Also, reducing tier sets to just 2 armor sets would be fine, you could simply have a pvp reskin and elite form, a regular skin and elite version for heroic.

In the same vein id also say nerfing dungeons from normal to mythic, id get rid of mythic and simply go normal, heroic, heroic+ and make it go to +5 not +15, since it'd feel more effective at making content more accessable, but equally make every number feel more important, with heroic being base end game gearing, and heroic+1 and 2 being equal to normal raiding gear while 3-5 could be equal to heroic raiding gear, but significantly harder.

This way, you can make challenges feel challenging but fun again, you can make content more frequent again, the game doesnt need to cater to 1 raid anymore, and the players can get what they want, a balance of people that are casual getting end game content for fun, and those that want the challenge getting it for the challenge.

[Lollis]

2 difficulties *is* enough, but frankly theres no need for a mythic+ for raiding, what they need is simply normal (LFR) and Heroic (Mythic)

WoW had 2 difficulties since TBC unoffically, but technically from wrath to MoP.

The thing is, theres a reason heroic works and mythic doesnt.

Heroic was challenging but accessable, in this era where raiding has long passed its glory day and only the loud vocal minority actually still care for it, its actually hurting the game to keep patches back so more raid difficulties can be balanced around to the point that some raids werent even balanced properly, look at the final raid of Shadowlands for no better example.

Sometimes its better to just make things smaller and simpler, because then you can have more of them.

Let me honestly, honestly ask raiders this:

Why does the end game story content need to revolve around you? Why cant we have side contents like Zul'aman again that are pure filler that are just raids for people who care about raiding?

The answer is because Ion runs the game, and Ion being leader of the elitist jerks is a raider.

The problem is raiding in general just isnt fun, its not been fun for years because difficulties have been made harder to newer players and ultimatley raiding is a niche only the old elite still care about.

Theres a reason you will still struggle to this day to find people interested in mythic, and its because people dont care for it.

If raiding was knocked from 4 difficulties to 2, we'd have significantly more people trying to raid and thus, raiding itself would grow.

Furthermore, it also means more raids in general can be added over an expansions life time, some might just be 2-3 bosses and some could be 5-7 or 10-11.

Raiding could easily be made more accessable and frankly should be more accessable, rather than trying to constantly gatekeep the content that has been generally going down the drain for years.

That being said, should HEROIC be hard, yes, absoleutley, I think the first boss should be there as an entry point to make those that are new to heroic feel welcome, then it should progressively get more bullshit until the final boss which at that point it should feel like a genuine challenge.

But normal raiding should feel laughably accessable, the first boss of normal shouldnt even be LFR tier, simply an introduction to raiding itself with the final boss being the closest thing to heroic, giving people a taste of hard content so they feel ready to start entering it by the end of normals natural flow.

Also, reducing tier sets to just 2 armor sets would be fine, you could simply have a pvp reskin and elite form, a regular skin and elite version for heroic.

In the same vein id also say nerfing dungeons from normal to mythic, id get rid of mythic and simply go normal, heroic, heroic+ and make it go to +5 not +15, since it'd feel more effective at making content more accessable, but equally make every number feel more important, with heroic being base end game gearing, and heroic+1 and 2 being equal to normal raiding gear while 3-5 could be equal to heroic raiding gear, but significantly harder.

This way, you can make challenges feel challenging but fun again, you can make content more frequent again, the game doesnt need to cater to 1 raid anymore, and the players can get what they want, a balance of people that are casual getting end game content for fun, and those that want the challenge getting it for the challenge.

There's some straight up delusion here ladies and gentlemen.

You genuinely think that removing mythic and completely destroying end game content is going to keep people playing and make more people move in to raiding? You don't raid, clearly.

Normal mode is already laughably easy and you think not only that nerfing all the content is going to make more people stay but that it would cause Blizzard to make more raids? You are so clueless. What would ACTUALLY happen, is that people would get tired of the lack of challenge and simply quit and Blizzard are not going to drastically overhaul their development road map to add more and more raids. Why play a game where there is no hill to get over and nothing to achieve?

The reason people do Mythic is because of the genuine challenge. It's the same reason people bang their heads against the wall in souls games: they want that difficulty, and fighting through that difficulty gives a huge feeling of accomplishment when you finally complete it. If you genuinely think that nerfing everything is going to make people stay, especially at this stage with the history of raiding being as it is, then you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Is there a problem with accessibility due to a perceived toxicity or eliteness in raiding? Absolutely, people new to raiding need to start off small and work their way up which is a big issue in a season based system that requires experience to get into, but the way to solve that problem is not to blindly nerf across the board. You dont take Titan class ships out of EVE Online simply because newer corps cannot access them.

What Blizzard ACTUALLY needs to do is find a way to properly teach people how to raid in a way that means they are not reliant on others in carrying them through the learning process, not punishing those people who have been raiding for years and who know what they are doing.

There is a huge difference between LFR and Normal, and that is the crux of the problem. The differences between Normal, Heroic, and Mythic are just abilities being fine tuned. The problem is that LFR does not teach people how to raid, which is why people struggle to get into Normal and push on into Heroic and Mythic. It has nothing to do with the individual difficulties of the content and more that people are not made to feel comfortable in the environment. If you don't know what you are doing, you are shamed and get a bad experience, which puts you off of trying to advance yourself in raiding. Blizzard have failed in bringing people to raids, not because of Normal, Heroic, and Mythic, but because of the complete absence of teaching of HOW to raid.

Blizzard could quite easily take a leaf out of FFXIV's book and do something similar to the Hall of the Novice which trains players on basic concepts of fighting in groups in a way that their own version (The Proving Grounds) simply does not do very well at all. With the technology that they have with the Islands and NPC PvP AI, they could go about making a proper training system using actual encounters of the past that allows a player to properly learn the basics of raiding that they are currently unable to achieve in an LFR setting. It would be a big undertaking, there is no doubt about it, but there are many systems that could be put into this training scenario that can genuinely teach players about raiding and give them some experience and confidence about making that jump into real group content.

[potis]

There's some straight up delusion here ladies and gentlemen.

Its the majority of people that think this way, there are some insane delusions going on about "My personal experience as a player" and "How it actually is", people cant seem to grasp this concept.

They think the problem they cant raid Normal/Heroic or do M+15 or anything, is based on factors other than themselves, and everyone thats plays the game knows that those are joke content, and Mythic becomes joke content down the line cause of the nerfs/overgearing design they have going for a few expansions now.

Its just easier to blame other sources than accept "Maybe despite playing for so long, i suck at this game, no, it must be those pesky mythics raiders that i cant clear normal and refuse to find a guild at the same level as me claiming i am socially inept and my 25 kids dont allow me to have any time to myself, GOD DAMN ION AND HIS GAME DESIGN".

[Kaykay]

There is nothing wrong with the raid design, stop trying to change it.

LFR has a reason to exist, the same way Mythic has a reason to exist, just because every now and then they overtune Mythic on purprose to delay things, it doesnt affect anyone but 40-100 people , and maybe 500 other players after the first fixes, and the rest kill completely different bosses, like with the latest changes where the nerfs are simply too much.

Strongly disagree, LFR serves only to be a poor mans cinematic and tier generator.
Mythic, serves only 100 people

remove lfr, remove mythic
Normal/Heroic should be the only raid difficulties, and spend the extra balancing time on more/better encounters.

Maybe add affixes in the future, lets see how S4 goes.

[potis]

Strongly disagree, LFR serves only to be a poor mans cinematic and tier generator.
Mythic, serves only 100 people

remove lfr, remove mythic
Normal/Heroic should be the only raid difficulties, and spend the extra balancing time on more/better encounters.

Maybe add affixes in the future, lets see how S4 goes.

So clueless it hurts.

Even if Mythic is nerfed to oblivion, even when the game is supposedly dead and no one plays it, there are 82300 players that cleared a Mythic boss in 9.2, not 100, this number is usually x3-x4 when the expansion hoppers are around at the first patch.

LFR reports participation of up to 60% of active max level player base the first 6 months of the expansion, if we assume as they always brag, 10-12mil the first few months that return and disappear, and if we assume 70-80% of that is max level cause they made it a joke, we have anywhere between 6 to 8 mil players that use LFR the first few months.

So no, you are simply clueless about the game.

Cause this is mmo-champion and i know you are gonna say "SAYS WHO", raider.io has all the data.

[Kaykay]

So clueless it hurts.

Even if Mythic is nerfed to oblivion, even when the game is supposedly dead and no one plays it, there are 82300 players that cleared a Mythic boss in 9.2, not 100, this number is usually x3-x4 when the expansion hoppers are around at the first patch.

LFR reports participation of up to 60% of active max level player base the first 6 months of the expansion, if we assume as they always brag, 10-12mil the first few months that return and disappear, and if we assume 70-80% of that is max level cause they made it a joke, we have anywhere between 6 to 8 mil players that use LFR the first few months.

So no, you are simply clueless about the game.

Cause this is mmo-champion and i know you are gonna say "SAYS WHO", raider.io has all the data.

I'd rather have 18 boss tiers with normal/heroic
than 10 boss tiers with lfr/normal/heroic/mythic

where 8/10 bosses on mythic is reserved for 100 people.

It's a video game, content should be accessible, and the difficulty of mythic has gone way off the deep end because of race for world first, a competition where people spend billions of gold on items and tier, where people are hired to make addons real-time in order to beat bosses.
And still it took them a month to clear.

Mythic raiding is dying, and the only way to revive it, is to get some fresh blood. And that only happens if the massive barrier to entry is lowered.

There's no incentive to play heroic and normal raiding, the rewards are abysmal, and you'll always be atleast one difficulty away from "actually" finishing the game, why would anyone take time out of the week to raid heroic today.

[glowpipe]

Flex lfr, normal and heroic is almost fine (except the last shit tier)small raid sizes needs a lot more fine tuning than currently. What really needs changing is mythic. 20 player is fine, but they also need to add a 10 player mythic that is properly tuned for 10 players

[potis]

There's no incentive to play heroic and normal raiding, the rewards are abysmal, and you'll always be atleast one difficulty away from "actually" finishing the game, why would anyone take time out of the week to raid heroic today.

"Finishing the game", and rewards, this is why you are clueless, first you think the game finishes, when its literally a "Set a goal, get it, unsub", but you guys cant do that cause your goals are joke level difficult, so you complain, and you have to pretend that Mythic raiding is some sort of "goal" or "Endgame" cause you could never play at that level or whatever weird mentality you are using.

I cant be bothered having a discussion with someone that thinks Mythic raiding in 2022 is some sort of life accomplishment, when the game design literally covers every level of player there is, and thats why me and my friends still play it, cause i can get my AOTC in a few months, have my character at a proper item level, which for SL atm its 278 with 277 equipped, aka a Mythic raider item level and then slack or unsub cause my goal was achieved.

Any decent player, plays the game for a reason, completes the reason and disappears, all i see people crying are just the people that cant accept that they arent as good as they think or want to be or, have the free time required or the free time they had 15 years ago, so its literally crying and complaining, 24/7 about non-existence problems that are caused by being socially inept.

[Eazy]

I am wondering if people who are presenting their own ideas are actually thinking about them or they're just having brain farts?

Keystones for Raids? lmao

[Coldkil]

Can actually see OP's point though this is not really the solution.

The major issue with raids is that it's an outdated form of content. Big static groups are the hardest thing to manage and the reward for doing the highest difficulty are shit since you can just pug a 15 and even not time it to get your guaranteed max ilvl piece in the weekly box. The disparity in gear rewards and availability between M+ and Raids is baffling especially since raids are on a weekly lockout.

My idea to fix the issue would be:
- do not touch M+ at all. they are fine as it is.
- make HC raids drop the same ilvl as 15s and use the same valor system to upgrade pieces to max ilvl (with normal as fodder as lower M+ do)
- make Mythic raids like mage tower; fixed scaling and challenge and leave those be there forever. Add some very cool rewards to them not tied to character power so people who is there just for the loot finally doesn't bother with it anymore (trust me, better to have less but motivated people instead of more uninterested ones).

Bam, you have true parallel progression between M+ and raids and also permanent content that stays relevant forever and is a challenge available to everyone that wants to try it. However it's just my opionion.

[ellieg]

all i see people crying are just the people that cant accept that they arent as good as they think or want to be or, have the free time required or the free time they had 15 years ago, so its literally crying and complaining, 24/7 about non-existence problems that are caused by being socially inept.

Big agree here. Add onto this jealousy. They see other players that are either more skilled, more social, and or have more free time. They get jealous of their gear and cry abt how they need it too because their 15 bucks a month.

- - - Updated - - -

Can actually see OP's point though this is not really the solution.

The major issue with raids is that it's an outdated form of content. Big static groups are the hardest thing to manage and the reward for doing the highest difficulty are shit since you can just pug a 15 and even not time it to get your guaranteed max ilvl piece in the weekly box. The disparity in gear rewards and availability between M+ and Raids is baffling especially since raids are on a weekly lockout.

My idea to fix the issue would be:
- do not touch M+ at all. they are fine as it is.
- make HC raids drop the same ilvl as 15s and use the same valor system to upgrade pieces to max ilvl (with normal as fodder as lower M+ do)
- make Mythic raids like mage tower; fixed scaling and challenge and leave those be there forever. Add some very cool rewards to them not tied to character power so people who is there just for the loot finally doesn't bother with it anymore (trust me, better to have less but motivated people instead of more uninterested ones).

Bam, you have true parallel progression between M+ and raids and also permanent content that stays relevant forever and is a challenge available to everyone that wants to try it. However it's just my opionion.

You mention weekly lockouts for the raids but fail to mention the weekly lockout for m+. The 278 is the main reward from m+ and you are locked to 1 piece a week.

The only solution they need for raids is this:
1. Weekly vault drops 1 tier higher. Kill 2 heroic bosses, get a 278 vault option
2. Normal (252) and heroic (265) can be upgraded at 3/4 ilvl increments (just like m+ gear) up to 272 with valor. Maybe some sort of achieve to unlock these ilvls, like m+ requiring 2k to get to 272. Idk, maybe certain # of boss kills at that difficulty?
Keep m+ and mythic raids as they are.

[Onikaroshi]

How about no.

[Coldkil]

You mention weekly lockouts for the raids but fail to mention the weekly lockout for m+. The 278 is the main reward from m+ and you are locked to 1 piece a week.

The only solution they need for raids is this:
1. Weekly vault drops 1 tier higher. Kill 2 heroic bosses, get a 278 vault option
2. Normal (252) and heroic (265) can be upgraded at 3/4 ilvl increments (just like m+ gear) up to 272 with valor. Maybe some sort of achieve to unlock these ilvls, like m+ requiring 2k to get to 272. Idk, maybe certain # of boss kills at that difficulty?
Keep m+ and mythic raids as they are.

Yeah, makes sense. As i said, it was my idea and not necessarily the best one.

The whole point is that right now you can spam 15s (not even in time) and invalidate all the "up to HC" raid progression rewards. Also you can semi-target drops by doing the same dungeon over and over.

And the issue again is not M+ which is really good on a bubble but this kind of interaction will leave a sour taste every time. Getting also on the "antisocial players" thing, i think it's just natural for it to happen because you can easily pug 15s but not raids due to the dofferent format, and since a lot players ultimately care only about the gear, they go the easier route.

An upgrade/update of the raid reward structure is needed, and we're getting something next season. Hope it works well.

[ohwell]

Really? You think bringing views once every 6 months to third party websites is what makes money and brings players in?
Not new expansions, sub revenue and shop purchases?
Pretty humorous! You should do stand up.

When they have deals for millions with platforms? Yes they really do. And every 6 months? I mean it's easy to try to act like you made a smart dismantle when you lie. There's literally something way more often than every 6 months.

I'm guessing you didn't see the Twitch leak a while back also showing what just a few streamers make, on one platform at that. Keep dreaming. I would say you should do stand up, but I mean all you'd need to do is exist apparently.

[potis]

Big agree here. Add onto this jealousy. They see other players that are either more skilled, more social, and or have more free time. They get jealous of their gear and cry abt how they need it too because their 15 bucks a month.

I dont think its jealousy, its just that people are so disconnect from the reality of things and they keep sprouting out dumb things trying to twist them into facts because its their experience and they have some need to feel included or important and that they arent at fault.

"I went to a club alone and just stood there sipping on water in a corner for 3 hours, therefor going to a club sucks and anyone telling otherwise is wrong because i paid 10$ entrance fee".

[Swnem]

When they have deals for millions with platforms? Yes they really do. And every 6 months? I mean it's easy to try to act like you made a smart dismantle when you lie. There's literally something way more often than every 6 months.

I'm guessing you didn't see the Twitch leak a while back also showing what just a few streamers make, on one platform at that. Keep dreaming. I would say you should do stand up, but I mean all you'd need to do is exist apparently.

In fact, it's not easy, as you seem to demonstrate. 9.1 was almost 7 months and 9.2 was almost 8 months. I was generous by saying 6 months. My bad.
You continue the hilarity. Blizzard doesn't see any of that money as the event is completely 3rd party based and it's a drop in the bucket compared to the revenue the game makes.
I couldn't care less how much twitch streamers make. That is not revenue coming for the game and world first race can be replaced by a raid+ tournament with the method OP suggested.
So, hold onto your panties. Mythic is not needed in the game. As i said, it's badly used resources.

[Elias1337]

Difficulty levels do not belongs into MMORPG game.