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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's just very prescriptive, that for you to perform optimally you have to do EXACTLY this. With gear recommendations (that most will take as requirements), enchantments, gems, etc..

    It surgically describes exactly what to manage, when to manage it, what to push, what to prioritize, etc... in such an unemotional, flat way that it can feel robotic when you just follow those directions.

    They're not wrong, though, it just kind of sucks the creativity, fun and enjoyment out of it when you've basically been told exactly what to do.

    Instead of just playing the game and enjoying yourself as you go along, following the guide turns the game into this kind of checklist where you just go down the list and check the boxes rather than a creative discovery type adventure. /shrug.
    This is one of those things where I feel like expectations are very much being misplaced.

    If you're talking about world exploration, or story, or just going through adventures in content, whatever...then yeah, you have a point that a "walkthrough" might ruin the experience.

    But in terms of just raw class performance, being told that X->Y does more DPS than Y->X isn't some kind of spoiler. It's just telling you what works. Like, hey, Fire spells do a lot of damage, so use them as much as you can. That's not stealing your personal creativity or ruining your adventure of something, it's just...what the numbers say.

    I feel like there's a lot of this in XIV, where some people are just vehemently opposed to concepts like performance. It's almost like some kind of backlash against WoW specifically (as they often reference WoW directly in these complaints) and they think that XIV is a game where none of that exists and it's just not true.

  2. #22
    I'm hoping for this too. In WoW I was able to perform at a high level thanks to how easy the combat was, in FFXIV I don't stand a chance and it's really annoying. There's no good reason why combat has to be that hard..

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I'm hoping for this too. In WoW I was able to perform at a high level thanks to how easy the combat was, in FFXIV I don't stand a chance and it's really annoying. There's no good reason why combat has to be that hard..
    Except combat isn't hard, at all.

    There's a lot of buttons, but a very obvious order in which they go.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'm no expert on icyveins as I haven't ever really used it, but what do you mean they give you the "absolute least fun way of playing"?
    Mostly speaking to my old WoW days here, since I've not looked at them and had forgotten until this thread that they were starting to do FF14 guides. But back in the day for me, they were massive to the point of if you didn't follow them at all, good luck getting into a raid. It didn't matter if you were a better player or top DPS, you had the wrong talent or one that you chose for your own enjoyment over the highest DPS, you were either laughed out the raid or told to go change it.

    Numbers are good, if you're wanting to to do top dps regardless then yeah, Icy Veins is the place for you. But WoW talents had a lot of fun options that always gave me more enjoyment to use then what was mathematically the best and because I preferred to use those over what was best, I found myself often playing alone later and later into my WoW life time.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Except combat isn't hard, at all.

    There's a lot of buttons, but a very obvious order in which they go.
    I'd rather have few buttons that are unpredictable. This many is just way too hard, they should have easier combat like WoW. Makes the game accessible

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I'd rather have few buttons that are unpredictable. This many is just way too hard, they should have easier combat like WoW. Makes the game accessible
    Why does having that many buttons make it inaccessible?

    I can think of a few possible examples, but I'm just curious what yours are.

    I know I couldn't play FFXIV all that well without peripherals, and I encourage any PC gamer to get peripherals to make playing easier and more ergonomic, but that's my situation, not everyone else's.

    That said, I couldn't even play WoW without peripherals. WoW was the reason I got my gaming keypad and MMO mouse to begin with because of a repetitive stress injury on my thumb from constantly using it at weird angles to hit modifier keys.

  7. #27
    Every single class is literally based around 1min and 2min rotations. You can plan your buttons before the fight even starts, and it'll be the same sequence every single time.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I'd rather have few buttons that are unpredictable. This many is just way too hard, they should have easier combat like WoW. Makes the game accessible
    Wow combat has gotten dull over the years, it was at it's peak in MoP before the great pruning happened.

  9. #29
    I'm a clicker and FF's combat's fine. The core rotation for most classes is pretty small and the longer GCD gives you plenty of time to react.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Why does having that many buttons make it inaccessible?

    I can think of a few possible examples, but I'm just curious what yours are.

    I know I couldn't play FFXIV all that well without peripherals, and I encourage any PC gamer to get peripherals to make playing easier and more ergonomic, but that's my situation, not everyone else's.

    That said, I couldn't even play WoW without peripherals. WoW was the reason I got my gaming keypad and MMO mouse to begin with because of a repetitive stress injury on my thumb from constantly using it at weird angles to hit modifier keys.
    Well, for one, only 1-6 are really accessible to your left hand (IE, your non-mouse hand).

    Depending on how you position your hand, only CTRL or ALT (but not both) is a convenient modifier. Shift is just kinda absurd, but I use it for AoE rotations.

    Which leaves you with essentially 12 "good" keybinds for all GCDs and OGCDs per class. Ergonomics is a thing, and has been a key to learning how to game effectively in skill-based games (whether it's a MOBA or an FPS), and having inconvenient mod keys always limits how many keys you can hit efficiently without any "loss" so to speak.

    I find that if I didn't have a Naga with 12 programmable buttons which I can all reach with my right hand thumb, I'd have way too few "good" keybinds for playing FFXIV. And even then I'm running out of space on classes like DRG which has like 12 OGCDs alone. As it is I use 1-6, ALT+1-6, NUM1-12 (mapped to my Naga), and ALT+NUM1-12, and that's enough for almost every class, though I really dislike using ALT+NUM1-12, because then you have to "think" with two hands.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-06-28 at 04:48 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, for one, only 1-6 are really accessible to your left hand (IE, your non-mouse hand).

    Depending on how you position your hand, only CTRL or ALT (but not both) is a convenient modifier. Shift is just kinda absurd, but I use it for AoE rotations.

    Which leaves you with essentially 12 "good" keybinds for all GCDs and OGCDs per class. Ergonomics is a thing, and has been a key to learning how to game effectively in skill-based games (whether it's a MOBA or an FPS), and having inconvenient mod keys always limits how many keys you can hit efficiently without any "loss" so to speak.

    I find that if I didn't have a Naga with 12 programmable buttons which I can all reach with my right hand thumb, I'd have way too few "good" keybinds for playing FFXIV. And even then I'm running out of space on classes like DRG which has like 12 OGCDs alone. As it is I use 1-6, ALT+1-6, NUM1-12 (mapped to my Naga), and ALT+NUM1-12, and that's enough for almost every class, though I really dislike using ALT+NUM1-12, because then you have to "think" with two hands.
    I have small hands. I can't even reach any modifiers, it's physically impossible

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, for one, only 1-6 are really accessible to your left hand (IE, your non-mouse hand).

    Depending on how you position your hand, only CTRL or ALT (but not both) is a convenient modifier. Shift is just kinda absurd, but I use it for AoE rotations.

    Which leaves you with essentially 12 "good" keybinds for all GCDs and OGCDs per class. Ergonomics is a thing, and has been a key to learning how to game effectively in skill-based games (whether it's a MOBA or an FPS), and having inconvenient mod keys always limits how many keys you can hit efficiently without any "loss" so to speak.

    I find that if I didn't have a Naga with 12 programmable buttons which I can all reach with my right hand thumb, I'd have way too few "good" keybinds for playing FFXIV. And even then I'm running out of space on classes like DRG which has like 12 OGCDs alone. As it is I use 1-6, ALT+1-6, NUM1-12 (mapped to my Naga), and ALT+NUM1-12, and that's enough for almost every class, though I really dislike using ALT+NUM1-12, because then you have to "think" with two hands.

    Why is Shift absurd? In my opinion, it's the most accessible modifier out of the 3.
    And why do you only use 1-6 and not the other like 10 keys around qweasd or wasd or what a lot of people do: esdf.

    Personally I only use 1-5 + f + q + e + r + c + y + MB4+MB5 + a single modifier. That seems way more than enough for FFXIV as well.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-28 at 06:12 AM.

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Back when i played Swtor i thought even that game had too many buttons and FF14 has so much more.

    I understand and appriciate all the Reponses.

    But i will probably stick to WoW or Action MMORPGs.

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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, for one, only 1-6 are really accessible to your left hand (IE, your non-mouse hand).

    Depending on how you position your hand, only CTRL or ALT (but not both) is a convenient modifier. Shift is just kinda absurd, but I use it for AoE rotations.

    Which leaves you with essentially 12 "good" keybinds for all GCDs and OGCDs per class. Ergonomics is a thing, and has been a key to learning how to game effectively in skill-based games (whether it's a MOBA or an FPS), and having inconvenient mod keys always limits how many keys you can hit efficiently without any "loss" so to speak.

    I find that if I didn't have a Naga with 12 programmable buttons which I can all reach with my right hand thumb, I'd have way too few "good" keybinds for playing FFXIV. And even then I'm running out of space on classes like DRG which has like 12 OGCDs alone. As it is I use 1-6, ALT+1-6, NUM1-12 (mapped to my Naga), and ALT+NUM1-12, and that's enough for almost every class, though I really dislike using ALT+NUM1-12, because then you have to "think" with two hands.
    This is exactly my reason for having a Naga, but I also have a gaming keypad (Tartarus) because it made things even easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I have small hands. I can't even reach any modifiers, it's physically impossible
    Without trying to be in any way insulting, how small are your hands if, when resting on WASD that you're physically unable to reach Left Alt, Left Control OR Left Shift?

    Or is my assumption that your hand rests in that spot incorrect?

    That said, as me and eschatological said, gaming peripherals are REALLY helpful, if not required (for some people) to play.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That said, as me and eschatological said, gaming peripherals are REALLY helpful, if not required (for some people) to play.
    I'm left handed and play with the mouse in my left hand and use the numpad. I greatly appreciate that Razer made the Naga left handed, but if that was not an option, I would get an ambidextrous mouse with just a few buttons and bind modifiers to those buttons. I currently have one of the side buttons bound as alt and it really makes a difference regarding the amount of keybinds I have access to. Now that I finally did that, I really don't think I "need" all the side buttons, but it still is a great convenience.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Why is Shift absurd? In my opinion, it's the most accessible modifier out of the 3.
    And why do you only use 1-6 and not the other like 10 keys around qweasd or wasd or what a lot of people do: esdf.

    Personally I only use 1-5 + f + q + e + r + c + y + MB4+MB5 + a single modifier. That seems way more than enough for FFXIV as well.
    Again, it depends how you position your hand. I'm left-handed, so I position my thumb on the spacebar, and my pinky usually is up near the 1/~/Tab key (~ is my discord voice keybind, which was important when I was a raidleader in wow, and in comms in other games). My index finger is usually around the 3/4 key, which means 2-4 is around my sweet spot. Even hitting six is stretching my whole hand out. Now, all this may be a bad habit from shooters where I want a finger (my thumb) always on the left side of my spacebar (Jump) so I can jump/crouch easily on command (I have Crouch on left Alt).

    I use WASD for movement (technically QWES, actually), and FFXIV has some default keybinds around R/T/F/Z etc.

    Also, I don't know how your keybinds are enough, for, say, dragoon. DRG has 7 rotational abilities, 3 jumps, gierskogal, two CDs, one of which requires you to target another player, life surge, and so on, so forth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    I'm left handed and play with the mouse in my left hand and use the numpad. I greatly appreciate that Razer made the Naga left handed, but if that was not an option, I would get an ambidextrous mouse with just a few buttons and bind modifiers to those buttons. I currently have one of the side buttons bound as alt and it really makes a difference regarding the amount of keybinds I have access to. Now that I finally did that, I really don't think I "need" all the side buttons, but it still is a great convenience.
    Even though I'm left-handed in everything, I grew up learning computers in the 90s where everything was designed for right handed people, so I use the mouse with my right hand and instead use the dominance of my left hand to have a unique position on the keyboard where I can even put my pinky to good use.

    Never thought of binding a modifier to my naga, that's interesting. How does that even work? You have to do it in the Naga settings itself?

  17. #37
    I used to think the same. Hell I think the same everytime I try a new class. But every single time I decide to sit down and learn a rotation it takes me like 30 mins/ an hour max.

    I just open up a rotation guide, and start working on the skills one by one. I try to get used to one combo, then another. Slowly moving my way up towards doing the entire rotation. Then after that just do the rotation again and again so it becomes muscle memory. Just go infront of a dummy and start whackin. You don't need an addon or anything of the sort. Just the base game.

    It becomes pretty satisfying when you learn it aswell.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Even though I'm left-handed in everything, I grew up learning computers in the 90s where everything was designed for right handed people, so I use the mouse with my right hand and instead use the dominance of my left hand to have a unique position on the keyboard where I can even put my pinky to good use.

    Never thought of binding a modifier to my naga, that's interesting. How does that even work? You have to do it in the Naga settings itself?
    Yep, in the Razer app, Synapse, you can rebind all buttons on your mouse or keyboard (if you have one of those too). You can even bind the buttons/keys to something specific that includes modifiers, such as CTRL+V.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I used to think the same. Hell I think the same everytime I try a new class. But every single time I decide to sit down and learn a rotation it takes me like 30 mins/ an hour max.

    I just open up a rotation guide, and start working on the skills one by one. I try to get used to one combo, then another. Slowly moving my way up towards doing the entire rotation. Then after that just do the rotation again and again so it becomes muscle memory. Just go infront of a dummy and start whackin. You don't need an addon or anything of the sort. Just the base game.

    It becomes pretty satisfying when you learn it aswell.
    The hardest part to me when starting a new class or a changed rotation is the opener, especially if it requires a lot of weaves with specific orders, and figuring out the best way to get them all in so they ideally line up with buffs and pot windows. It is satisfying once you figure it out though and are comfortable enough to make decisions that alter your rotation/timing based on the fight.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's just very prescriptive, that for you to perform optimally you have to do EXACTLY this. With gear recommendations (that most will take as requirements), enchantments, gems, etc..

    It surgically describes exactly what to manage, when to manage it, what to push, what to prioritize, etc... in such an unemotional, flat way that it can feel robotic when you just follow those directions.

    They're not wrong, though, it just kind of sucks the creativity, fun and enjoyment out of it when you've basically been told exactly what to do.

    Instead of just playing the game and enjoying yourself as you go along, following the guide turns the game into this kind of checklist where you just go down the list and check the boxes rather than a creative discovery type adventure. /shrug.
    Okay, but like how is that the "least fun" way to play? Maybe "least fun" for @MsSideEye, but feels a little misleading to state it kind of matter of a fact. Not only that, but I just went and looked up the Ret guide, it's clear, concise, and the quick guide literally gives an ease of use talent setup as the default and states it's very close to the max talent setup, but then point you that way if you want something more involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    Mostly speaking to my old WoW days here, since I've not looked at them and had forgotten until this thread that they were starting to do FF14 guides. But back in the day for me, they were massive to the point of if you didn't follow them at all, good luck getting into a raid. It didn't matter if you were a better player or top DPS, you had the wrong talent or one that you chose for your own enjoyment over the highest DPS, you were either laughed out the raid or told to go change it.

    Numbers are good, if you're wanting to to do top dps regardless then yeah, Icy Veins is the place for you. But WoW talents had a lot of fun options that always gave me more enjoyment to use then what was mathematically the best and because I preferred to use those over what was best, I found myself often playing alone later and later into my WoW life time.
    I mean I always used whatever talents I wanted. Sometimes that was the most optimal, sometimes it was ~3% less DPS, but considerably less mental stress, or I liked the theme of it. I still put up top logs and DPS, no one ever kicked me from a pug mythic or heroic raid or M+ because I had a different talent...

    At the end of the day, performance is really all that matters and how you get there is mostly irrelevant IME. If the argument here is about dead or useless talents that are fun, then I fully agree there.

  20. #40
    Over 9000! Kathranis's Avatar
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    I just wish they'd collapse the combos into single buttons like they do in PvP. But I guess if you change a core rotation from 123456123456 to 111222111222 people will feel like it's braindead.

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