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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Okay, but like how is that the "least fun" way to play? Maybe "least fun" for @MsSideEye, but feels a little misleading to state it kind of matter of a fact. Not only that, but I just went and looked up the Ret guide, it's clear, concise, and the quick guide literally gives an ease of use talent setup as the default and states it's very close to the max talent setup, but then point you that way if you want something more involved.
    I can't say what it is they meant, just giving my interpretation of it.

    As I said, the guides aren't wrong, they're actually very clear and they do provide options.

    I don't find following them to be any less fun than doing my own thing, but I'm interested in performing well so I'll mostly follow them. Except in situations where the play style in those recommended guides just doesn't jive with my play style by adding too much micro managing or an extra button that I don't particularly like in my rotation. Knowing what's top choice vs what's an acceptable replacement is nice.

    I mean I always used whatever talents I wanted. Sometimes that was the most optimal, sometimes it was ~3% less DPS, but considerably less mental stress, or I liked the theme of it. I still put up top logs and DPS, no one ever kicked me from a pug mythic or heroic raid or M+ because I had a different talent...

    At the end of the day, performance is really all that matters and how you get there is mostly irrelevant IME. If the argument here is about dead or useless talents that are fun, then I fully agree there.
    I agree with you on this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I just wish they'd collapse the combos into single buttons like they do in PvP. But I guess if you change a core rotation from 123456123456 to 111222111222 people will feel like it's braindead.
    It's already brain dead, if that's the case. Using less buttons to be brain dead is better than more buttons.

    That's my take anyway. I've never found the rotations to be difficult, biggest challenge I found was where to put them on my already busy bar to make them feel more organic/easy to use. The issue was never pushing the button itself.

  2. #42
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I just wish they'd collapse the combos into single buttons like they do in PvP. But I guess if you change a core rotation from 123456123456 to 111222111222 people will feel like it's braindead.
    The problem would be jobs like Samurai, which start with the same button but uses a different combo, like the +Dmg combo, +Haste combo, etc

    I guess a macro could work?
    Haven't tried using a macro honestly. No point for me at least


    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's my take anyway. I've never found the rotations to be difficult, biggest challenge I found was where to put them on my already busy bar to make them feel more organic/easy to use. The issue was never pushing the button itself.
    I usually use 1,2,3 for the basic combo and 4,5,6 for other single target stuff I need
    Shift+1,2,3 for AoE stuff

    Then it's a matter of personal preference I guess. I mostly use Q,E, Shift+Q, Shift+E, Shift+R, Shift+T, Shift+X, Shift+C, Shift+Z for other functionalities.

    All of my tanks have Rampart on Shift+R for example
    Last edited by Maljinwo; 2022-06-28 at 07:50 PM.
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  3. #43
    I am Murloc! Scoli's Avatar
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    I remember the first time I ever saw a video of WoW and thought how complicated it looked because of all the buttons I saw on the screen. It prevented me from trying out the game for no reason other than my own silly pre-conception that something would be overly complicated when in reality it wouldn't have been thanks to both being eased into the experience as well as the VAST majority of those buttons not being actual abilities being used inside of combat.

    Granted I only ever got to around level 30 on FFXIV as a summoner (pre-rework) and while I did experience some useless buttons on summoner AFTER the rework (there's an upgraded version of your main ability that only activates in certain situations and it feels redundant to have that be a separate button rather than just have the main ability transform into the upgraded version), I don't think taking away buttons just because people looking at the game from the outside is a rational thing to do. You're essentially taking away fun from players who prefer it the way it is in favor of trying to get players into the game who are prevented from trying the game for ultimately irrational things. Irrational things that, again, when catered to come at the cost of the fun of the existing playerbase.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    SAM is very easy.
    After the change it has become relatively easy to play 100% optimal (or should I say "even more"?), as the only "tough" thing is to figure out the extra GCDs you have to invest to line up cooldowns. Most of the timer however, you don't even need to do that due to bosses doing stuff.

    Button bloat exist.
    Get your rotation to 1 2 3 4 and "modifier"-1/2/3/.

    AoE rotation is hardly needed in a raid context but can be done with basically 2 buttons.

    Cooldowns are on a relatively strict 1 and 2 minute timer, you don't have to keep track, you will just remember that it is "time to press this now" after a while of actually playing the class.
    And with the change in the recent patch, it's basically impossible to fuck up kenki management.

    I usually manage with 1-4 + modifiers and the usual Q/E/X/C/F button or mouse4/5.

    However, maybe a healer would be easier for you. They don't have many buttons in terms of how to deal DPS and the healing stuff is never really a "rotation" thing and you will have both enough time as well as enough tools to heal whatever raids and dungeons throw at your party. Not always of course, but we are basically talking about doing one specific heal very 45 seconds or so. Even in Savage, actually.
    SAM's basic rotation is "easy" but its still a series of like 6 different combos, with off-gcd abilities between each ability in a different rotation that you have to remember, depending on how much haste you have. eventually you can fit 2 abilities between normal abilities, and even then, you h ave to memorize an exact sequence of abilities that is something like 33-35 GCDs long (just for an opener) and then another series of abilities of about the same length for your main rotation. and if at any point the boss does anything that messes up any of those, you are basically fucked and lose most of your dps because you either have to a: start making it up as you go and hope you can get things to sync back up, which you wont, or b: just start over from the beginning. and thats the "easiest" class. FFXIV has huge bloat and rotation problems and literally the least fun mmo to play at high levels.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Hey.
    Is there no ”Easy” class?
    Try red mage, is easy to understand and don't have too many buttons

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I usually use 1,2,3 for the basic combo and 4,5,6 for other single target stuff I need
    Shift+1,2,3 for AoE stuff

    Then it's a matter of personal preference I guess. I mostly use Q,E, Shift+Q, Shift+E, Shift+R, Shift+T, Shift+X, Shift+C, Shift+Z for other functionalities.

    All of my tanks have Rampart on Shift+R for example
    My set-up has a similar premise, where I assign specific kinds of abilities to specific keys. For me, the main AoE ability typically goes on 4, main rotation starter/most often used button goes on 1, main spender/proc button is alt+1, etc...

    This makes almost all of my classes in WoW "feel" the same because I'm hitting the same buttons to do the same things, just with a different flavor on each class. With the big prune they did in BfA and extending into Shadowlands made things feel VERY boring and pushed me to switch to Shaman simply because it had the prettiest, most involved effects making me feel like I was doing more.

    FFXIV has so many buttons that this idea is just a framework. Many classes simply CAN'T conform to that because I need my typical AoE button to be the second combo starter/ender or the 20 second cooldown ability that's in the rotation or something.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    SAM's basic rotation is "easy" but its still a series of like 6 different combos, with off-gcd abilities between each ability in a different rotation that you have to remember, depending on how much haste you have. eventually you can fit 2 abilities between normal abilities, and even then, you h ave to memorize an exact sequence of abilities that is something like 33-35 GCDs long (just for an opener) and then another series of abilities of about the same length for your main rotation. and if at any point the boss does anything that messes up any of those, you are basically fucked and lose most of your dps because you either have to a: start making it up as you go and hope you can get things to sync back up, which you wont, or b: just start over from the beginning. and thats the "easiest" class. FFXIV has huge bloat and rotation problems and literally the least fun mmo to play at high levels.
    "Most of your DPS" is such a stretch.
    And as SAM, you are basically never fucked at all in that regard due to the 2 stack mechanic they added.
    Even the.. what is it called, the kenki generation ability, has a 30 second leeway because it gives you a buff for that amount of time until you have to use the 2 new abilities before any loss of DPS occurs for not pressing the abilities "on cooldown".

    And SAM also doesn't have "6 different combos", AoE simply doesn't exist in this game in any meaningful way and I have yet to find a reason why the "third AoE combo" was even added, I don't even have it on my ability bar because it has no reason to exist.

    And you don't just "have a different amount of haste" either.
    You decide on how much you have and how you want to play. It's not like in WoW where it could potentially switch around due to procs or something.

    80% of the rotation is done by doing this over and over and over:

    12
    134
    shift 123 (in a different order obviously.)


    You could argue that you shouldn't even put combos onto your "numbers" because you press these way too often and the numbers are harder to reach than most keys but I still find that easier to use that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Again, it depends how you position your hand. I'm left-handed, so I position my thumb on the spacebar, and my pinky usually is up near the 1/~/Tab key (~ is my discord voice keybind, which was important when I was a raidleader in wow, and in comms in other games). My index finger is usually around the 3/4 key, which means 2-4 is around my sweet spot. Even hitting six is stretching my whole hand out. Now, all this may be a bad habit from shooters where I want a finger (my thumb) always on the left side of my spacebar (Jump) so I can jump/crouch easily on command (I have Crouch on left Alt).

    I use WASD for movement (technically QWES, actually), and FFXIV has some default keybinds around R/T/F/Z etc.

    Also, I don't know how your keybinds are enough, for, say, dragoon. DRG has 7 rotational abilities, 3 jumps, gierskogal, two CDs, one of which requires you to target another player, life surge, and so on, so forth.
    I mean... how is it not. The buttons I mentioned are already enough for 20 skills and I didn't even mention Y and R or V
    That has most if not all relevant utility skills in it as well, such as feint.

    I have to admit that I didn't bind "second wind" or "bloodthrist"... but if I were to bind those I'd use 5+modifier.
    I don't want to pay a sub just to check again because I'm done until the next savage tier opens but the letters around WASD (or whatever someone uses to move around) are always there.

    It's funny how different people use their hands on a keyboard though.
    Mine is more like a "cat's paw" or "claw" on, from left to right or pinky to thumb, Shift / A / W /D / Spacebar
    Saying that just made me realize my thumb is completely useless for gaming, I think I never pressed anything other than spacebar with it.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-28 at 09:07 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DargorDraconis View Post
    Try red mage, is easy to understand and don't have too many buttons
    I'll second this as it being easy anyway IMO, but it still has a lot of buttons, just not as many as some classes do. It just feels so much more natural and organic than some of the others. Just going through buttons that I use pretty consistently, there's 30 abilities.

    Ability List:

    1) Jolt/Jolt 2
    2) Veraero - ST
    3) Verthunder - ST
    4) Verfire - ST Proc
    5) Verstone - ST Proc
    6) Verthunder 2 - AoE
    7) Veraero 2 - AoE
    8) Scatter/Impact - AoE
    9) Corp-a-corp - gap closer
    10) Displacement - leap away finisher
    11) Engagement - stay-put finisher
    12) Riposte - 1st melee combo
    13) Zwerchhau - 2nd melee combo
    14) Redoublement - 3rd melee combo
    15) Contre Sixte - AoE cooldown
    16) Fleche - ST cooldown
    17) Acceleration - cooldown
    18) Manafication - cooldown
    19) Moulinet - melee AoE
    20) Embolden - cooldown
    21) Verraise
    22) Vercure
    23) Reprise - ST melee, no combo
    24) Magic Barrier - cooldown
    25-29) Role abilities -Addle, Lucid Dreaming, Surecast, Switfcast and Sleep
    30) Limit Break

  9. #49
    Over 9000! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    The problem would be jobs like Samurai, which start with the same button but uses a different combo, like the +Dmg combo, +Haste combo, etc
    They could still combine Jinpu + Gekko and Shifu + Kasha into single buttons and free up two hotkey slots.

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