Is it time to end gear gatekeeping?

[facefist]

See I told you it would happen lmao.

Btw I don't have any problem with my gear, ihavent touched wow in about 6 months or so and don't intend on coming back for the trash next xpac so your "logic" fails here little guy. Nice try though but all you did was prove me right. There is always someone pretending to be a player in crap gear that's happy, its like flies on shit.

I'll predict the next rant will be "you aren't even playing the game so why do you care about gear" lmao

I knew you would start defending your insecurity by trying to attack me personally. Thanks for proving your insecurity over video game gear lmao

[Accendor]

Gearing has become irrelevant in this game, at least in context to earlier expansions.
Gear in the old days of classic, used to carry a gravitas and a sense of prestige.

Now gear is just something to be discarded with each new season.
It is cheap, expendable, and is relatively easy to do for mythic raiders/plus'ers, and high end pvp'ers.

Because of this, I would assume that the majority of players in high end content are pursuing these goals because of the intrinsic fun involved in the activities, along with bonus titles and mounts.

My question is, does giving max ilvl gear to world/daily questers take away from the experience of high end players, or do they even care?

Yes, they care. Power progression is the most fundamental aspect of character development and the biggest motivating factor to do any content overall. The hardest content should reward the best gear, the more trivial the content is, the less powerful the gear should be.

If you do ot intend to do difficult content, you don't need the best gear anyway.

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You just named the number one reason why i dont play retail. I am raiding SWP and we still do Grull runs for the DST trinket.

JUst to get you to know if case you never played tbc. T4 Kara/Mag/Grull, T5 SSC/TK, T6 BT/MH, ZA( catch up raid with items in the range of t5/t6) and finaly we have t6.5 SWP.
We still have items from T4 that are good in SWP not BIS but very close to it.


I would rather have a system like this than a system like in retail. That means you could skip a pacth and still have gear to help out your guild. YOu could take a break but still have BIS in some slots of your gear making finding a guild easier.

Yes, I 100% agree with this.

[neescher]

You just named the number one reason why i dont play retail. I am raiding SWP and we still do Grull runs for the DST trinket.

JUst to get you to know if case you never played tbc. T4 Kara/Mag/Grull, T5 SSC/TK, T6 BT/MH, ZA( catch up raid with items in the range of t5/t6) and finaly we have t6.5 SWP.
We still have items from T4 that are good in SWP not BIS but very close to it.


I would rather have a system like this than a system like in retail. That means you could skip a pacth and still have gear to help out your guild. YOu could take a break but still have BIS in some slots of your gear making finding a guild easier.

In retail you can also skip a patch and still help out your guild. It literally takes 1-2 days to have adequate gear to play high end content. And that's for a completely new character with NOTHING. If you have gear from the last season (or even from the season before), it's even faster.

I much prefer that than having to equip every alt or new guild member through 3 tiers of raid content, and every time somebody quits or leaves the guild, having to recruit someone new and start from scratch. No thanks.

I remember back in vanilla, our guild split due to some differences, when we were already clearing BWL and were working on AQ progression. We had to recruit a bunch of new people and had to raid MC and Ony again for months. And yes, I know it's different in classic, now that we have knowledge of the game for 16+ years, and yeah I know you can easily carry 20 new players through MC nowadays, but in 2005 and 2006, you simply couldn't. At least the majority of guilds/players couldn't.

When you're on the same content patch for 6-9 months, you don't want to keep doing the same old raids *in addition* to the new raid that's being released.

[Makaloff]

Max level gear for world quests would hurt nothing but the fragile egos of the "elite" that feel you need to "earn" the privilege to wear that gear, they seem to think everyone looks up to them because they no life dungeons on mythic, but reality is no one cares and no one ever will care what they have earned except their small group of fragile ego friends. I hope that answers your question.

I will assume though that one of the "elite" I was talking about will pretend to be a normal player and say they look up to those players but what can you do /shrug.

dont get me wrong, im not against people getting good gear outside of M+, pvp and raids, but my thought is a bit that how it would affect the endgame content. PvP probably wouldnt be much affected but raids for example, once you cleared the raid on HC/mythic, why would you do it again if world quests give max ilvl reward? im a bit worried that it could risk affecting the raiding scene in a negative way.

I mean take TBC for example, if i got max lvl gear from quests and dailies, why would i run any raid more than once? badges will be useless since the gear you can buy from them would be inferior to what you already have.

It has nothing to do with me being elite or trying to gatekeep, im just curious of the train of thought.

[neescher]

Gearing should be useful for all players, and not only for those who play premade group content.

Means, a casual gamer who plays world content should be able to use the gear in higher levels of world content.

As like a raider is able to use gear for higher levels of raids.

Yes, the gatekeeping needs to stop. Especially blizzard catering to the few that want useful gear for themself only.

Fuck prestige. Gear has a function. Is a system used to master higher ranks of your content. Beside that it is about appearance. If there should be prestigious rewards for raiders, it should be about their names on a hall of fame. Not about them and only them having gear they could use to progress.

A casual gamer who plays world content has their own gear progression though. It just stops at a slightly lower item level, just as m+/heroic raid gear stops at a lower item level than mythic raid gear.

The gear you get from world content is good enough for anything you're trying to do. I literally started a new alt a few days ago, and within hours of reaching max level, I was at 245 average item level without stepping foot in a single dungeon or raid (at max level - I played normal dungeons to level the character). Just by doing ungrouped ZM content, the world boss once, and crafting legendaries. You can probably get that number higher if you play longer than 5 hours, if you get your cypher ilvl up, if you farm more rares, etc... but even if you don't, that's just enough. Why do you need more? Are you not getting invited to world quest groups because your ilvl is too low? Can you not kill mobs in ZM with that item level? What's the reason for more gear, other than having a bigger number in the character screen? I just don't get it.

I'm no mythic raider, I do m+ content and even I'm fine with the fact that mythic raiders get better gear. And m+ players are in a position, where they could actually use gear upgrades to push higher keys. World content doesn't have scaling difficulty and even with 240 you can pretty much do everything. I don't understand the position of "I WANT MORE, JUST BECAUSE".

Having easy solo content reward high end gear, means one thing, and one thing only: People who don't like to play that kind of content, feel forced to do so because they'll get better gear to play the content they actually like. They've been trying to avoid forcing pvp players to play m+/raid (and vice versa) for that exact reason: It'll make the players feel like they have to do content they don't like. It has nothing to do with "I don't want casuals to have good gear", it has to do with "if world content rewards gear as good as m+, I have to play that content (which I dislike) in addition to the content I want to play". On the other hand, not "giving" world content players high end gear, does absolutely no harm in any way, other than people thinking "my number is lower than the raider's number, omg gatekeeping"

[Makaloff]

It's time to bring back titanforging & ap. Fuck raidlogging and waiting for weekly resets to keep progressing. LET ME GRIND!

Legion was peak WoW. Shadowlands was 5 steps backwards.

dear god no, i never want to see that system back ever again. Tell me how fun it is to get a gear drop and being dissapointed it didnt TF, how fun it was to run argus over and over and over again to get resources so you could buy the token gear in a attempt to get that trinket TF. Only time i would accept TF back is if it was limited to 10 ilvl above the ilvl of the item.

I only raided HC in legion and i was pretty much mythic gear ilvl due to TF, i even was a 985 TF head piece drop in LFR once (LFR ilvl was 915 iirc).

[Zantera]

I think the only problem I have with gearing at the moment is that the cap on dungeon gear (or upgrading) at 272 feels really annoying instead of letting us get that gear to 278. I know they want to make the vault lucrative but from a gearing perspective it's kinda annoying when even if you grind your bis item from a dungeon, you can still only get it to 272 and if you're never lucky with your weekly vault you simply might not even get that bis item at the highest ilvl it can be for that whole tier.

[Echocho]

They should just copy the tomestone system from FFXIV so that everyone can work their way towards good gear.

[enigma77]

dear god no, i never want to see that system back ever again. Tell me how fun it is to get a gear drop and being dissapointed it didnt TF, how fun it was to run argus over and over and over again to get resources so you could buy the token gear in a attempt to get that trinket TF. Only time i would accept TF back is if it was limited to 10 ilvl above the ilvl of the item.

I only raided HC in legion and i was pretty much mythic gear ilvl due to TF, i even was a 985 TF head piece drop in LFR once (LFR ilvl was 915 iirc).

It was great, you have no idea.

[Caprias]

A reward structure should be designed logically around effort and difficulty, right?

So, when your average middle of the pack cutting edge guild takes 4-5 months to clear and with that reach the best gear on the last few bosses, how many months should that open world/non-group/casual path take to not completely destroy a logical gear curve exactly?

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It was great, you have no idea.

For people with no jobs and or social life that need a occupational therapy it was, yes.

[Alvito]

Gearing has become irrelevant in this game, at least in context to earlier expansions.
Gear in the old days of classic, used to carry a gravitas and a sense of prestige.

Now gear is just something to be discarded with each new season.
It is cheap, expendable, and is relatively easy to do for mythic raiders/plus'ers, and high end pvp'ers.

Because of this, I would assume that the majority of players in high end content are pursuing these goals because of the intrinsic fun involved in the activities, along with bonus titles and mounts.

My question is, does giving max ilvl gear to world/daily questers take away from the experience of high end players, or do they even care?

It makes content far too easy for people or puts them in a situation where they do not have the skill or ability to push past and heavily out gear the content.

[enigma77]

A reward structure should be designed logically around effort and difficulty, right?

So, when your average middle of the pack cutting edge guild takes 4-5 months to clear and with that reach the best gear on the last few bosses, how many months should that open world/non-group/casual path take to not completely destroy a logical gear curve exactly?

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For people with no jobs and or social life that need a occupational therapy it was, yes.

No it was good for people who like to play the game and have fun. It was basically Path of Exile in WoW and it was the best thing ever.

In Shadowlands the game is totally dead, zero content expansion. You raidlog whiners ruined the game. There is a reason why PoE is extremely popular, it's fun making your character stronger and grinding. WoW is failing right now because they removed any sense of character progression.

You people want to play a game that offers you nothing to do, so you can quit sooner. You're a joke.

[Goatfish]

It's funny how some people can take their obvious envy over other people having better gear and turn it around to be gatekeeping elitism. "I'm the victim because I don't/cant spend the time and effort necessary to get the best gear in game".

Your problem isn't gear folks. Your problem is you.

[VMSmith]

A reward structure should be designed logically around effort and difficulty, right?

No.

A piece of entertainment does not need to be a morality engine, doling out rewards only to the 'truly worthy'. It's meant to entertain as many people as possible as a leisure activity and should always focus on that, and generating an income if it happens to be a live service, such as WoW.

Now, of course, the process of acquiring rewards should feel 'good', which for most human beings is completing a task that presented at least some difficulty. But that level of difficulty is different for everyone so there should be good rewards available at all levels of difficulty. If you peg only one level of difficulty as the standard then you are essentially telling too many of your potential customers that they are just not good enough and suck and, true to human nature, they will abandon your entertainment product.

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It's funny how some people can take their obvious envy over other people having better gear and turn it around to be gatekeeping elitism. "I'm the victim because I don't/cant spend the time and effort necessary to get the best gear in game".

Your problem isn't gear folks. Your problem is you.

Yes, it's clearly not your sneering condescension that makes them think you are partaking in 'gatekeeping elitism', I'm sure.

[Goatfish]

No.

A piece of entertainment does not need to be a morality engine, doling out rewards only to the 'truly worthy'. It's meant to entertain as many people as possible as a leisure activity and should always focus on that, and generating an income if it happens to be a live service, such as WoW.

Now, of course, the process of acquiring rewards should feel 'good', which for most human beings is completing a task that presented at least some difficulty. But that level of difficulty is different for everyone so there should be good rewards available at all levels of difficulty. If you peg only one level of difficulty as the standard then you are essentially telling too many of your potential customers that they are just not good enough and suck and, true to human nature, they will abandon your entertainment product.

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Yes, it's clearly not your sneering condescension that makes them think you are partaking in 'gatekeeping elitism', I'm sure.

The thing is, you don't get to decide how people design their product. You only get to choose whether you buy it or not. Insult me all you want, it doesn't change reality.

[Xath]

Max level gear for world quests would hurt nothing but the fragile egos of the "elite" that feel you need to "earn" the privilege to wear that gear, they seem to think everyone looks up to them because they no life dungeons on mythic, but reality is no one cares and no one ever will care what they have earned except their small group of fragile ego friends. I hope that answers your question.

I will assume though that one of the "elite" I was talking about will pretend to be a normal player and say they look up to those players but what can you do /shrug.

Max level gear from worlds quests makes raiders have to do those world quests for optimal gear setups. I would be just fine with it if raids had templates and your gear didn't matter at all but until then much like benthic annoyance I would prefer it to not be a thing. Bad enough to have to farm M+ every season for trinkets

[Twdft]

I don't understand the position of "I WANT MORE, JUST BECAUSE".

I'd say it takes about 4 weeks of regular play for a casual open world player to max out cypher gear to 252. Compare that to a mythic+ only player who needs 13 or 14 for dual weilders perfect vaults to max out their gear. Even more if you don't get an upgrade every week.

Open world players don't want to be done with gearing after 4 weeks, simple as that.

I don't see a problem with giving them 265/272/278 ilvl after 2/3/4 months. If anyone grinds Zereth Mortis for 4 months I'd say they fucking earned 278 gear.

[Caprias]

No.

A piece of entertainment does not need to be a morality engine, doling out rewards only to the 'truly worthy'. It's meant to entertain as many people as possible as a leisure activity and should always focus on that, and generating an income if it happens to be a live service, such as WoW.

Now, of course, the process of acquiring rewards should feel 'good', which for most human beings is completing a task that presented at least some difficulty. But that level of difficulty is different for everyone so there should be good rewards available at all levels of difficulty. If you peg only one level of difficulty as the standard then you are essentially telling too many of your potential customers that they are just not good enough and suck and, true to human nature, they will abandon your entertainment product.

Escalating difficulty with better and better rewards tied to it is the design of the majority of videogames, especially in rpgs.

Look, I don't agree with the current design that the average young to middle aged adult would need to put in 4-5 evenings/week to CE raid (3 raid evenings +1-2 evenings for character maintenance, and all around preparation) to get on average the "best" rewards in a 4-5 month time span, that's kinda ridiculous to me, but I still do think that there needs to be a logical reward structure.

[kenn9530]

Max level gear for world quests would hurt nothing but the fragile egos of the "elite" that feel you need to "earn" the privilege to wear that gear, they seem to think everyone looks up to them because they no life dungeons on mythic, but reality is no one cares and no one ever will care what they have earned except their small group of fragile ego friends. I hope that answers your question.

I will assume though that one of the "elite" I was talking about will pretend to be a normal player and say they look up to those players but what can you do /shrug.

Gear should be earnt not just handed to you when you have played enough, so max level gear should never be available to any player who doesnt do that level of content, getting gear close is fine but if you dont do mythic plus or mythic raiding you should never obtain equal rewards, it has nothing to do with this so called ego, players doing hard content should be rewarded and have better items, getting max level gear without doing the content invalidates the whole game.

If you have skill you can dedicate 1-3 nights a week and still get CE and complete all the mythic plus dungeons.

[jeezusisacasual]

Hear me out for a radical idea, perhaps dungeons should award points that can then be spent on gear. Have a mechanism in place to turn regular gear into tier gear. Make the costs associative of them filling in for a lack of luck for a slot or 7. Allow the points to be season long not weekly ie 1000 a week meaning a fresh player can get say 3,000 in week 3 etc. This would effectively put an end of date time on the current content which would be healthy for everyone involved and would promote a feeling of progression. We will call it ultra cool mega internet gear points.

I would say raiding but i kinda hate raiding and think it hurts the pick up and play nature of the current gaming landscape unless raids are designed to be pick up and play with lower trash amounts not require a large amount of time ( akin to a lame ass D & D session ). But hey they can give the ultra cool mega internet gear points also. And no i dont really like MMO's excluding WoW ( until KSM ) and FF 14.