Buffed Naxxramas Will Backfire, Disaster Ahead!

[Battlebeard]

[QUOTE=Makaloff;53824438]

Classic is the worse game, by far. If people don't play for nostalgia and good memories, WHY would they ever pick Classic over Retail.

Retail is miles ahead in every department, it is the better game, but I still like Classic more cause I have so many fond memories. Just like Diablo 3 is by far better than Diablo 2, in every single way, but people still like D2 cause it was so big and popular back in the day.

Just look at it objectively. D2 had clunky controls, confusing skill systems, slow paced combat, inconvinience all over with potions, runes, scrolls etc, it is WORSE but I get people like it.

Same with Classic. It lacks so many features and conviniences the modern game has. I could prolly list 100 things Retail does better, but I cba, cause I think you get the point from the Diablo example.

J. Allen Brack was 100% correct when he said "you think you do, but you don't", cause he told the truth and basically said "Classic sucked, you don't wanna go back there", and he was right, cause compared to retail, Classic DO suck, BUT what J. Allen Brack miscalculated and forgot, is that Nostalgia is like a drug and people love it. It makes people see past all the crap and still enjoy something.

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id actually argue classics class design is much better (wotlk), the classes feel unike and fun to play, i have a talent system that actually is usefull and each specc and class have their role. Not to mention hunter in classic dont feel garbage to play like it does on retail (surv is meele and MM got screwed over by the surv rework). My combat rouge isnt a wannabe RNG pirate in classic, nor is the story out of the window, nor do i have to grind massive systems that gets thrown away after next expansion and throws balance out of the window. in short, i play for the design, not for nostalgia. Retail went downhill with WoD, BFA and SL cemented the absolute garbage retail ended up becoming. Best part with classic is that its a RPG, retail is just a fast paced lobby game that get stale quick, so much stuff have been removed for no reasons (quivers on hunters showing on the back for example), gear is just boring stat sticks, JC and Enchanting pretty much useless among many other things. if it werent for classic, i wouldnt be playing now and tbh, even if DF seems to fix some of the issues with retail, im not too convinced it will actually be any good.

Not to mention J A brack was a muppet on many levels, so i wouldnt bother listening to whatever clueless stuff he rants on about. the "you think but you dont" aged like old milk and the fact that retail was down at like 500k subs at one point pretty much shows how bad retail actually was and still very much is.

But anyhow to get more ontopic: im pretty sure your guild will be able to clear naxx, it was hilariously undertuned in OG wotlk and even with a buff it wont even get close to be a challenge. at most it will take some more time, which isnt the end of the world really. people will still pug it, hell i raid lead it back in wotlk as a 12 year old with people that was completly clueless and i still cleared it each week.

I don't have a guild, I will only be able to pug and I think it will take many, many weeks, maybe months to clear Naxx.

Also, I could make a huge list why Retail is better, but take the Hunter, that I play. It's improved in so many, many ways in retail compared to now, few examples on retail you can:

- Shoot at any range
- No more mana, Focus is awesome
- Lone Wolf for us who love Hunters but hate pets
- No more ammo

One can prolly make a list of this for every class as an example.

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So it is possible to cope with casual guild raiding, but you are just loot obsessed and can't afford to miss a single reset in case your work/family problem arises - therefore you won't commit. Definitely sounds like *you* problem.

P.S. *Dad gamer* is not a term i would use to describe you btw

It is a me problem, but it shouldn't be. Don't you think they should have some version of the game that is easy and something everyone can access and clear no matter IRL situation?

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

P2W means Pay to Win. If you can buy your way to success, it is pay to win. I mean, technically everything in life is P2W, the richest guy wins. There is not really anything Elon Musk can't buy.

And technically every game is P2W, even games who don't have currencies, cause you could just contact the top players and pay them IRL for a boost.

However, we are gonna focus on games with built in "legal" pay to win, and WoW is 100% P2W. They sell the game token for real money, you buy gold with real money, and you can buy anything in game with gold, ANYTHING. Pay enough and you can be part of the Race to World First even. That would prolly cost billions of gold, but in theory you CAN even buy that boost.

Since they sell gold, and gold buy success in the game, the game IS 100% P2W, even if it's the players who sell boost, and not the game itself. The ONLY way WoW would NOT be P2W would be if they banned all boost runs, then, you cannot legally use gold to boost yourself. But as long as boosting is legal and they sell the currency to buy boost, WoW is indeed P2W, although it's ofc a different type of P2W than like Diablo Immortal and some other games.

[Popastique]

It is a me problem, but it shouldn't be. Don't you think they should have some version of the game that is easy and something everyone can access and clear no matter IRL situation?

It is easy. And majority, dad gamers and casual players alike, will no doubt clear even buffed WOTLK content. You on the other hand want the content to be tailored to your special needs, not just IRL stuff that makes you raid schedule chaotic and unpredictable, but also loot mentality which you stick to that makes 1 day raiding guilds seems like a bad thing for you.

Nothing prevents you from joining a casual guild, raiding once or twice every few weeks or skipping a raid due to IRL stuff. Nothing except yourself, and i really doubt there are many players who face this particular problem, but you can prove me wrong with statistics or smthing like that.

[Zardas]

It is a me problem, but it shouldn't be. Don't you think they should have some version of the game that is easy and something everyone can access and clear no matter IRL situation?

Imagine someone that has only 10 minutes to play. Should we do a version of a the game where you just have to press a button to get all the loot ?

And technically every game is P2W, even games who don't have currencies, cause you could just contact the top players and pay them IRL for a boost.

You mean every multiplayer games ? And not even considering that not every game game has a "win" aspect attached to it.

[Airickson]

The majority of classic raiders are way sweatier than retail, wym?

[Battlebeard]

Imagine someone that has only 10 minutes to play. Should we do a version of a the game where you just have to press a button to get all the loot ?



You mean every multiplayer games ? And not even considering that not every game game has a "win" aspect attached to it.

We HAD a version like that, which was non-buffed Naxxramas, the original way, the Classic-way that fits #nochanges.

Blizzard went out of their way to ruin the game and to stop #nochanges, and I cannot understand why.

[Zardas]

We HAD a version like that, which was non-buffed Naxxramas, the original way, the Classic-way that fits #nochanges.

Blizzard went out of their way to ruin the game and to stop #nochanges, and I cannot understand why.

Nop, even in the original Wotlk you couldn't beat Naxrammas with 5 minutes of your time. I'm talking about an hypotetical situation where you would literally have a button that you could click to "clear" Nax. Would you like to have that in the game ? Because that would allow everyone to "clear" no matter their IRL situation.

[Battlebeard]

Nop, even in the original Wotlk you couldn't beat Naxrammas with 5 minutes of your time. I'm talking about an hypotetical situation where you would literally have a button that you could click to "clear" Nax. Would you like to have that in the game ? Because that would allow everyone to "clear" no matter their IRL situation.

Now, lets not get silly. But I would indeed want it far easier. My favorite raid/time in the game was Molten Core in Classic 2019, that had the perfect difficulty for me. Any pug could clear it any time. Perfect for my situation.

[Surfd]

Level 60 mechanics with level 80 tool kits is what ultimately makes it easier than it already was. What made it a total "lol I am in greens from leveling and BT gear" push over was next to no abilities could kill without the highest of ignorant plays and blinking and the boss was dead health pools. So nothing they can really do without changing mechanics will make Naxx truly difficult but they can make just standing in the fire or 5 people being afk for half the run can manage to screw things up.

Naxx 10 / 25 were cakewalks for literally anyone who had done the 40 man version at any point. 10 was especially easy because it wasn't simply level 60 mechanics, it was level 60 mechanics DESIGNED FOR 40 PEOPLE. I remember doing Thaddeus in 10 man where you could literally position yourselves in the room in such a way that you could straight up ignore the mechanics entirely, and still have enough dps in quest gear to kill him without issue.

[Zardas]

Now, lets not get silly. But I would indeed want it far easier. My favorite raid/time in the game was Molten Core in Classic 2019, that had the perfect difficulty for me. Any pug could clear it any time. Perfect for my situation.

So you're only about cattering to those in your very specific situation ? In all your argumentation you've delusionalized yourself by believing that you spoke about the majority of the playerbase (I quote "a HUGE disaster for the game"), but now you're only speaking about your very specific situation. The idea you're describing would perfect for you, and all those in your situation, but from what I've read that doesn't mean much people, since you're pretty far from the average classic gamer in terms of skills (no offense, just a constatation ?). So don't you think that it will be far from " huge disaster".

[Battlebeard]

So you're only about cattering to those in your very specific situation ? In all your argumentation you've delusionalized yourself by believing that you spoke about the majority of the playerbase (I quote "a HUGE disaster for the game"), but now you're only speaking about your very specific situation. The idea you're describing would perfect for you, and all those in your situation, but from what I've read that doesn't mean much people, since you're pretty far from the average classic gamer in terms of skills (no offense, just a constatation ?). So don't you think that it will be far from " huge disaster".

I don't know if I am in a BIG majority, but I DO believe many, many people play this game ONLY for nostalgia. I truly believe Classic is by far worse than Retail, and picking Classic over Retail for non-nostalgic reasons is baffeling to me.

And if you just care for nostalgia, why are you after challenge? Don't you wanna reexperience all the content, just to see it, feel it again, get the loot, do it all? Doesn't lower challenges allow you to indulge in the nostalgia in a better and smoother way?

[Zardas]

And if you just care for nostalgia, why are you after challenge? Don't you wanna reexperience all the content, just to see it, feel it again, get the loot, do it all? Doesn't lower challenges allow you to indulge in the nostalgia in a better and smoother way?

Started playing in 7.1 so I can't really speak for nostalgia, but I doubt that anyone could enjoy the "content" if it doesn't offers any challenge at all. You make it sounds like the buffed Nax will be some hardcore stuff but I'm pretty sure it won't : everyone will still be able to faceroll it (except you apparently) ; if anything, a buffed Nax will likely be closer to people's memories of Nax than the version you desire (since people were less skilled at that time).

[Woods123]

Started playing in 7.1 so I can't really speak for nostalgia, but I doubt that anyone could enjoy the "content" if it doesn't offers any challenge at all. You make it sounds like the buffed Nax will be some hardcore stuff but I'm pretty sure it won't : everyone will still be able to faceroll it (except you apparently) ; if anything, a buffed Nax will likely be closer to people's memories of Nax than the version you desire (since people were less skilled at that time).

Maybe, depends on how deep they go. But tbh nax is going to feel just as easy as it was back then no matter what imo. Even back then if you didn’t full clear nax you were basically laughed at, it was an actual joke.

[Battlebeard]

Started playing in 7.1 so I can't really speak for nostalgia, but I doubt that anyone could enjoy the "content" if it doesn't offers any challenge at all. You make it sounds like the buffed Nax will be some hardcore stuff but I'm pretty sure it won't : everyone will still be able to faceroll it (except you apparently) ; if anything, a buffed Nax will likely be closer to people's memories of Nax than the version you desire (since people were less skilled at that time).

I truly hope you are right. I don't want to be right here, but I've been dissapointed before. I still haven't even cleared normal Sepulcher in Retail after all these months, so I've given up, cause Retail is a complete elitistic disaster. I just so badly don't want it here.

And well, we had some horrible trends already. I cannot with words describe my hatred for Warcraft Logs, it's the worst thing to ever happen to the game. And now we are gonna have achievements, and maybe even Gearscore again.

For some people, this will be great, they will find better players and clear it fast, but for so many of us, it will make the game unplayable. I want to play WotLK, I want to raid Naxx, but I fear, I will spend HOURS every single day begging leaders for an invite, just to get declined cause of lack of achievements or gear. And the harder the raid is, the higher these demands will be. They might even add the Armory so we cannot fake achievements either... or just demand logs to prevent fake. I sadly expect a complete nightmare on the pugging scene.

TBC was worse than Classic, WotLK will be worse than TBC. Maybe even unplayable. I just want to raid without playing the game like a job.

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Maybe, depends on how deep they go. But tbh nax is going to feel just as easy as it was back then no matter what imo. Even back then if you didn’t full clear nax you were basically laughed at, it was an actual joke.

You remember it wrong, pugs didn't clear Naxxramas for many months. This idea that it was a faceroll has spread like wildfire, but it really wasn't. It was fairly easy for guilds, but that's because they compared it to Sunwell or to Original Naxx that had this mythilogical aura around it, making people think it was hard.

In reality, Naxx in WotLK was harder than BT/MH, on par with Tier 5 at least, maybe even harder than that. I did research and checked so many armory profiles, and puggers didn't clear it for quite some time, it was no joke for pugs.

[Popastique]

TBC was worse than Classic, WotLK will be worse than TBC. Maybe even unplayable. I just want to raid without playing the game like a job.

If raiding in a guild 1 evening every week or so feels like a job, then why not quit it? Majority agrees with hp/damage buffs so they probably won't be reverted.

[Hayro1]

Literally no one asked for buffed Naxx. What the hell were they thinking?

Clearly they buffed the embarrassingly easy Naxx for no reason whatsoever, just because! They knew it was too easy back then, and it'll be way easier today, this new 'buffed version' will be similar if not the same as to how it was back then.

[kranur]

I don't know if I am in a BIG majority, but I DO believe many, many people play this game ONLY for nostalgia. I truly believe Classic is by far worse than Retail, and picking Classic over Retail for non-nostalgic reasons is baffeling to me.

And if you just care for nostalgia, why are you after challenge? Don't you wanna reexperience all the content, just to see it, feel it again, get the loot, do it all? Doesn't lower challenges allow you to indulge in the nostalgia in a better and smoother way?

You believe wrong. People who play for nostalgia do so for a short time. The rest of the people that continue to play it, do it because they don't want to be forced to deal with all the bullshit of retail, like "mandatory" systems.

When will you understand, they will NOT be turning Naxx into a challenge. They will simply make it so people get to have a good experience. Skipping half the mechanics on most bosses due to much higher dps is not a fun thing.
Also just look at tbc, T5 was nerfed many phases ahead of time because "dads" could not handle it. FYI, my guild is actually competing for high world ranks and guess what, more than half of us are in our 30s and dads too.

Also, how come you claim retail is the better game and bang your head on classic? TBC was literally one of the most hardcore raider expansion ever, cause you couldn't just toggle difficulty. Why play that instead of play LFR and challenge yourself to stay awake? Cause that what you're literally asking for.

Also funny how you don't have time to play, but have time to cry all day on forums.

[cparle87]

I think the hardest thing in Naxx was the safety dance

But even then the boss could eventually be done with a tank, a healer or two, and the few dps who know what they're doing cause there's no berserk timer iirc.

[Delever]

I remember very well, that it took many months to clear Naxx 25 man. I checked armory to see dates.

WotLK was released i November and some people cleared it then with guilds. I cleared Naxx 10 in january, and most bosses in 25man had fallen in late February early March, but Sapphiron and Kelthuzad, I killed mid-April. Five months after release, cause it was brutally hard to find decent pugs back then and clearing 4-5 months later with pugs was NOT unusual.

I even took time to check some buddies of mine who also pug raided, and this was NOT a slow kill for PUGS. I was very average.

How this is considered the easiest raid ever I have no idea. I think you will be surprised it's not a walkover.

bro literally what the fuck are you talking about. I remember the achievement for realm first naxx clear popping in chat while I was finishing leveling on the week of release

[Battlebeard]

bro literally what the fuck are you talking about. I remember the achievement for realm first naxx clear popping in chat while I was finishing leveling on the week of release

Yeah, guilds cleared it fast, but PUGS did NOT. On average it took many weeks, even months to clear 25 man Naxx. I cleared it in April 2009, and it was released in November 2008, and I was only BRIEFLY below average pugs.

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You believe wrong. People who play for nostalgia do so for a short time. The rest of the people that continue to play it, do it because they don't want to be forced to deal with all the bullshit of retail, like "mandatory" systems.

When will you understand, they will NOT be turning Naxx into a challenge. They will simply make it so people get to have a good experience. Skipping half the mechanics on most bosses due to much higher dps is not a fun thing.
Also just look at tbc, T5 was nerfed many phases ahead of time because "dads" could not handle it. FYI, my guild is actually competing for high world ranks and guess what, more than half of us are in our 30s and dads too.

Also, how come you claim retail is the better game and bang your head on classic? TBC was literally one of the most hardcore raider expansion ever, cause you couldn't just toggle difficulty. Why play that instead of play LFR and challenge yourself to stay awake? Cause that what you're literally asking for.

Also funny how you don't have time to play, but have time to cry all day on forums.

I have A LOT of time, just not regular time. I work as a freelancer, different hours every week, can litterally be called 24/7 any day.

Either way, I do hope you are right, but I think it will be a nightmare for pugs. I truly hope you are right, but I expect to spend hours every day trying to find a pug, and get declined over and over and over.

[Woods123]

I truly hope you are right. I don't want to be right here, but I've been dissapointed before. I still haven't even cleared normal Sepulcher in Retail after all these months, so I've given up, cause Retail is a complete elitistic disaster. I just so badly don't want it here.

And well, we had some horrible trends already. I cannot with words describe my hatred for Warcraft Logs, it's the worst thing to ever happen to the game. And now we are gonna have achievements, and maybe even Gearscore again.

For some people, this will be great, they will find better players and clear it fast, but for so many of us, it will make the game unplayable. I want to play WotLK, I want to raid Naxx, but I fear, I will spend HOURS every single day begging leaders for an invite, just to get declined cause of lack of achievements or gear. And the harder the raid is, the higher these demands will be. They might even add the Armory so we cannot fake achievements either... or just demand logs to prevent fake. I sadly expect a complete nightmare on the pugging scene.

TBC was worse than Classic, WotLK will be worse than TBC. Maybe even unplayable. I just want to raid without playing the game like a job.

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You remember it wrong, pugs didn't clear Naxxramas for many months. This idea that it was a faceroll has spread like wildfire, but it really wasn't. It was fairly easy for guilds, but that's because they compared it to Sunwell or to Original Naxx that had this mythilogical aura around it, making people think it was hard.

In reality, Naxx in WotLK was harder than BT/MH, on par with Tier 5 at least, maybe even harder than that. I did research and checked so many armory profiles, and puggers didn't clear it for quite some time, it was no joke for pugs.

Hey bud, keep your own memories to yourself and don’t tell me what I remember k?

The server first alliance team was literally a fuckin pug on my server. Maybe pugs you were in didn’t clear it, but the ones on my server pugged nax basically out of the gate. It was not and is not even remotely a challenging raid.