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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    Adding more tanks/healers doesn’t make more tanks/healers appear in the queues. It just makes the same people who tank and heal have more options.
    From a tank...... I'm ok with this

    I want a black dragon tank
    I want a buckler rogue tank
    I want a demon absorbing aoe life draining warlock tank
    I want a hunter with amazing control over his pet tank
    I want a 2 handed frost shocking shaman tank
    I want a staff wielding absorb damage and reflect holy priest tank
    I want a cold ice barrier slowing mage tank


    I want all that shit and will play all of it. I want every class to be able to tank, if they chose to. I don't care about queues, because I tank.

  2. #22
    Man. I love seeing bad ideas like this. Keep 'em coming! See how horribly it goes!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    True but people would quit if their chosen spec became tank/heal. It forces them in a position to either adapt or quit which really isnt healthy for a nearly 20yo game. Might as well make that new game.
    Even IF that was to happen (which it won't, but let's discuss) then that'd probably be an acceptable sacrifice. It'd have to be people who ONLY want to play ONE particular spec on ONE particular class (or a selection of the exact specs on the exact classes that are being changed) to the degree where not having them as DPS anymore would actually make them quit the game entirely.

    That's a tiny fraction of the player base.

    What's more likely is that the people who really liked playing those DPS specs will grumble and moan, and then switch to a different spec on the same class, or a different spec on a different class, and STILL PLAY.

    And that's irrespective of whether or not this'd actually increase the number of tank/heal players or not, which is a separate discussion.

    Any change has the potential to alienate someone, and worrying about not alienating anyone is a sure-fire way to screw things up. It's a world of trade-offs, and sometimes it's fine if some people stop playing, if it means other people KEEP playing.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    There is no heal/tank scarcity in raids (generally). Tanks are an afterthought in PvP and healing in PvP is also not that much of a problem. It's only m+ (or dungeons in general) where it's a problem, but one Blizzard made.
    The only shortage is in random groups/pugs. It's a social problem. I don't think anyone who plays with his friends/guild has a hard time to find a tank/healer.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The only shortage is in random groups/pugs. It's a social problem. I don't think anyone who plays with his friends/guild has a hard time to find a tank/healer.
    It's not even a blanket pug problem.
    15+ dungeon queues are pretty fast (+20 queues are even faster imo).

    The extreme tank shortage is only relevant in low level keys due to players playing at that level generally give fck all about responsiblity so 90% of them are dps.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Absolutely not true. Like at all.

    There is no heal/tank scarcity in raids (generally). Tanks are an afterthought in PvP and healing in PvP is also not that much of a problem. It's only m+ (or dungeons in general) where it's a problem, but one Blizzard made.

    The whole concept of m+ favours DDs.
    Tanks have to plan the routes ahead, since they are the ones pulling. Often they can't really tank, but have to kite. There are even some affixes that make this necessary (e.g. necrotic). All that while doing as much DPS as possible. Taking defensive talents or legendaries is often not the best choice for them.
    Healers have a shit job: They are only needed if the group makes mistakes and otherwise they act as low throughput damage dealers, that occasionally have to burst heal the group. And since they don't have an interrupt (except shamans), they can't even reliably prevent damage but have to rely on the DPS and Tanks to not suck, since one missed kick can cause a wipe on higher keys and there is nothing a heal can do about it.
    So we have two roles, that are basically more difficult DDs with more responsibility.

    Only DDs can play their intended role: Just make as much damage as possible (and interrupt important abilities).

    The timer of m+ coupled with the clear % requirement makes this a DPS race. One good DPS can carry your key. A healer can't do that. A tank could, but only if he does high dps, not by just tanking more mobs than usual (since the DPS would die either way because of missed interrupts).

    How I would fix that problem:
    Make invisibility potions unusable in m+. Give more mobs stealth detection. Reduce the timer of dungeons. Then, instead of requiring a certain number of mobs for 100%, let each killed mob extend the dungeon timer by a few seconds, that way you're not as punished by not following the optimal route. Essentially you could either kill as little trash as possible and try to burst the bosses in a short amount of time or you could kill more trash and then have more time for the bosses. Assuming you kill the trash fast enough, but in my concept the time extension would be very generous.
    That way you have an option to "save" a few boss wipes by just extending your time and tanks don't have to meticously plan the routes ahead.

    In regards to healers: Give them something to heal other than the group. We have some raid boss encounters where healers must heal mobs, which in turn buff the group. Maybe implement this mechanic in m+.
    Translation: "I am a dps and I am innocent! Even though I blame the tank for literally everything!"

    I expected this answer tbh. It's always the same type of player who is oblivious on how toxic they are towards newer players.

  7. #27
    What makes you think completely changing multiple specs takes less effort to balance than adding a new class every 2 or 3 expansions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  8. #28
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmrysForrest View Post
    Do not add additional specializations to balance. Do not add new classes to balance.

    Remove one of the Mage specializations (arcane is the least popular, so remove arcane) and implement a Chronomancer healing class.

    Remove Elemental or Enhancement and replace it with an Elementalist tank specialization.

    Remove Survival and replace it with a Medic healer.

    Do not add a Necromancer. Make one of the DK’s specializations a Necromancer caster specialization.

    Remove a rogue specialization and replace it with an evasion tank centered around mobility and avoiding damage.

    I’ll let you guys get creative with Warlocks.

    This way we aren’t seeing an endless stream of new additions for the balance team to struggle with and inevitably neglect due to difficulty with sheer volume of specializations.
    Just because they add more tanks and healers doesn't mean we'll get more tanks and healers.

    I would love to see them give us options though, setting up all classes by one additional spec with a cap at four.

    Plate
    Death Knight:
    Blood, Frost, Unholy, and Necromancer (Ranged DPS/Healing by stealing health from others (their own team, or the enemy) to heal themselves, or their team).

    Warrior:
    Protection, Arms, Fury, and Gladiator (DPS with 1h/Shield).

    Paladin:
    Protection, Retribution, Holy, and Cleric (Ranged DPS/Healing).

    Mail
    Shaman:
    Enhancement, Elemental, Restoration, and Protector (Tank spec).

    Hunter:
    Marksman, Survivalist, Beast Master, and Tracker(WIP) (Melee/Ranged DPS with throwing weapons (Axes, Daggers, Spears)).

    Evoker:
    Devastation, Preservation, and Guardian (Tank Spec)

    Leather
    Druid: N/A.
    Guardian, Feral, Restoration, Balance.

    Demon Hunter:
    Havoc, Vengeance, and Seeker (Ranged DPS).

    Monk:
    Brewmaster, Mistweaver, Windwalker, and ??? (Chi'ji inspired Ranged DPS).

    Rogue (Heavy remake):
    Assassination (Melee DPS), Subtlety (Melee DPS), Outlaw (Ranged DPS), and Mercenary (Parry/Dodge Tanking).

    Cloth
    Priest:
    Holy, Discipline, Shadow, and Zealot (Melee DPS spells/Daggers).

    Mage:
    Arcane, Frost, Fire, and Illusions (Ranged Tanking with the use of Illusions to create a target to hold threat which has to be maintained while deploying defenses for the group).

    Warlock:
    Affliction, Demonology, Destruction, and Devourer (Demon Enhancement tanking, give them a version of transformation built on the demon they consume, various methods of tanking in one class.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2022-06-27 at 02:56 PM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  9. #29
    No. Awful idea.

    Forcing people to tank or heal is how you get shitty tanks and healers.

  10. #30
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Giving tanks more options doesn't mean you get more tanks

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    That sounds like a really dumb idea. Good job dude!

  12. #32
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Doesn't help. Proof of that is the amount of People who played Blood DPS in Wrath on their DK that immediately swapped to Frost/Unholy or another Class the moment it become a Tank.

  13. #33
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Doesn't help. Proof of that is the amount of People who played Blood DPS in Wrath on their DK that immediately swapped to Frost/Unholy or another Class the moment it become a Tank.
    And here I loved playing Unholy Tank as Death Knight, and it was ruined...
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  14. #34
    I play a paladin so I can fill whatever spec I want. Playing with randoms has stopped me filling tank/healer roles for random groups even if it means waiting ages for someone else to fill these roles.

    DPS only players are fully to blame for the shortages, they never dip their toes into other roles to understand how fight dynamics change. They just make the tank/healers jobs a nightmare.

    As a healer, groups make mistakes or pull too much and just see bigger damage numbers, they pay no attention to healer mana and continue to play poorly until mana runs out and the group wipes, healer takes the blame and either gets kicked or people start to leave.

    As a tank I swap my focus to keeping agro on stuff, this falls apart and becomes extremely stressful when the DPS ninja pull more than I can control, again it ends up being my fault if I can't magically get agro on everything instantly regardless of how far away its pulled.

    Having more choices available for tanks/healers in other classes would help people gain experience in how different these roles can be, also having these choices available as a specialisation in the class you currently play means you are far more likely to test it than making an alt and gearing it up (especially with how poor the catchup has been for alts in recent expansions).

    I don't think specs should be getting replaced though, just add them on top of what is already available or do it through talent choices.

    Introducing pets as an option for tanking/healing would open up more sensible options for some classes, eg beast mastery hunters could have talents which turn them into tanks where the pet does all the tanking. Same thing with mages/shaman/warlocks using a pet to tank rather than tanking directly.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Giving tanks more options doesn't mean you get more tanks
    WHO CARES! it gives us tanks more options and toys to play with, and THATS whats important.


  16. #36
    Scarab Lord
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    Maybe they should just balance and tune those specs around tanking and healing and leave the dps to damage dealers?
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    Translation: "I am a dps and I am innocent! Even though I blame the tank for literally everything!"

    I expected this answer tbh. It's always the same type of player who is oblivious on how toxic they are towards newer players.
    You brain really seems to only have the capacity of a hamster... And you obviously did not read anything I wrote. But sure, "muh, DPS bad". It's not like the game had tank shortages since literally day 1 vanilla, where nobody knew the game and gogo mentality was not invented yet.

  18. #38
    It was much better before the group finder was added and server merges started to happen. When people needed a reputation on the server to get invited for stuff you didn't get away with the gogo mentality. There is nothing to stop people misbehaving and being assholes to each other now since you are unlikely to bump into the same player ever again.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    This wont change anything...tanks and healers aren't scarce because there isn't enough specs, it's because there aren't enough people who want to tank or heal.
    Thats not even the reason. It is cause the tanks and heals do not want to deal with stupid people; aka pugs. 99% of them have their own groups.

    Lots of tanks, just none want to deal woth bad players.

  20. #40
    All this will accomplish is pissing off players who like playing their specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utok View Post
    It was much better before the group finder was added and server merges started to happen. When people needed a reputation on the server to get invited for stuff you didn't get away with the gogo mentality. There is nothing to stop people misbehaving and being assholes to each other now since you are unlikely to bump into the same player ever again.
    I pugged pretty heavily in WotLK and outside of those who were known to be the absolute worst, notoriety meant little to the pugs I was in. And go-go-go mentality was pretty present even then.

    People have some serious rose tinted glasses for the past.

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