Should Blizzard even try to make Retail similar to Classic?

[WowIsDead64]

May be these two should be completely different games for different auditories? I guess, the biggest SL's mistake was "We have learned a lot from Classic, so we will bring all this things to SL". This ended as trying to intentionally make game as inconvenient, as possible, because inconvenience = immersion. May be some of you don't notice it, but I see it everywhere. From "lose-lose" choices to bad flight master routes through Oribos. But do we really need all of this? May be we don't need two identical games at the same time?

I understand Blizzards' logic. They think, that no matter how Classic is good for players, who love Classic, they will need Classic+ or Classic 2.0 some day. And Blizzard think, that such direction of development is more promising, than focusing on QOL and casual playerbase. But may be they're wrong? Yeah, may be casual playerbase is more choosy, so sometimes devs start to think, that catering to it isn't worth is, as it demands more, more and more, but quits way to easily. But at the same time casual playerbase doesn't actually asks for too much to be happy. It doesn't need dungeons. It doesn't need raids. It doesn't need complex game systems. Casual playerbase needs transmogs, mounts, pets and some trivial activities, where to get them. Is it really so much to ask?

[Lathspell]

May be these two should be completely different games for different auditories? I guess, the biggest SL's mistake was "We have learned a lot from Classic, so we will bring all this things to SL". This ended as trying to intentionally make game as inconvenient, as possible, because inconvenience = immersion. May be some of you don't notice it, but I see it everywhere. From "lose-lose" choices to bad flight master routes through Oribos. But do we really need all of this? May be we don't need two identical games at the same time?

I understand Blizzards' logic. They think, that no matter how Classic is good for players, who love Classic, they will need Classic+ or Classic 2.0 some day. And Blizzard think, that such direction of development is more promising, than focusing on QOL and casual playerbase. But may be they're wrong? Yeah, may be casual playerbase is more choosy, so sometimes devs start to think, that catering to it isn't worth is, as it demands more, more and more, but quits way to easily. But at the same time casual playerbase doesn't actually asks for too much to be happy. It doesn't need dungeons. It doesn't need raids. It doesn't need complex game systems. Casual playerbase needs transmogs, mounts, pets and some trivial activities, where to get them. Is it really so much to ask?

What exactly did they bring from Classic to Shadowlands? The games are nothing alike.

[enigma77]

Excuse me?

Classic is totally different. Classic raiding is a casual experience, on Retail you have to be a masochist to do Mythic raiding.

[WowIsDead64]

What exactly did they bring from Classic to Shadowlands? The games are nothing alike.

Well, whole Maw was built around "You didn't have ground mounts till level 40" idea. Whole Covenants were built around "Choice should be meaningful" idea. Whole flight path system was built around "If you want to do quests on Tanaris, it should take 15 minutes for you just to get there from Orgrimmar or you just should stay there without access to major city features - it's your choice, haha". Should I continue?

[Osmeric]

I think SL was a built around the whole "they won't fire me even if I massively fuck this up" idea.

[Mysterymask]

Well, whole Maw was built around "You didn't have ground mounts till level 40" idea. Whole Covenants were built around "Choice should be meaningful" idea. Whole flight path system was built around "If you want to do quests on Tanaris, it should take 15 minutes for you just to get there from Orgrimmar or you just should stay there without access to major city features - it's your choice, haha". Should I continue?

Bro these are some stretches that would make Stretch Armstrong blush.

[WowIsDead64]

Hard to explain. It's about overall level of hardcore. Of course it's easy to say, that they did it, because they wanted as cheap xpack, as possible. And cheap xpack = stretching content as much, as possible. But things like Maw are definitely intentional design. It's not like "Ok, we have enough resources to make tiny location only. What can we do to stretch this content and make it last longer? Let's remove their ground mounts!!!". It's about that myth, that no ground mounts till level 40 back in Vanilla was big thing, that was creating lots of immersion.

And we can't be sure, if Blizzard have finally abandoned "Classic is only true MMO" idea after TBC Classic or not. WotLK will be their last try, I guess. There is one last myth about Classic. Was it casual content, that killed "true" Wow?

[username993720]

It wasn't done with Shadowlands.
It is done with Dragonflight and it is for the better.

[Nerovar]

They shouldn't. Every time they try this it's going to fail comically. Covenants are a good example.

"Meaningful choices", slow/inconvenient gameplay etc. sort of work in Classic because the game is very much an intact RPG with different interlocking systems reeinforcing the idea at every step of the way.

You can't take retail, a game which has purged most of its RPG elements over the course of more than a decade, and expect it to still support the same game design philosophies from back in the day. It's the same as pruning classes to a barebone moba playstyle and then giving them back one or two niche abilities that don't interact with the rest of the toolkit. It's just catering to nostalgia and is completely meaningless because you have demolished the larger context in which these things can flourish.

There's also the fact that retail players have been subjected to years of conditioning and now detest everything that mildly inconveniences them. Can't really blame them for that since it was Blizzard who facilitated that behaviour.

So if you want an updated version of WoW that actually has a future but adheres to Classic's design philosophy best you can do is call for something like Classic+ (similar to how they handled Old School RuneScape). Retail will not and cannot return to its roots even if it tried neither in terms of lore nor in terms of gameplay.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Naw, what they will do is change classic so it isn't classic and blame it on retail and then we get to hear how retail is better which you have to question why you change classic away from retail but then say why change it in retail to make it better because that is the solution in classic levels of madness.

[VinceVega]

May be these two should be completely different games for different auditories? I guess, the biggest SL's mistake was "We have learned a lot from Classic, so we will bring all this things to SL". This ended as trying to intentionally make game as inconvenient, as possible, because inconvenience = immersion. May be some of you don't notice it, but I see it everywhere. From "lose-lose" choices to bad flight master routes through Oribos. But do we really need all of this? May be we don't need two identical games at the same time?

I understand Blizzards' logic. They think, that no matter how Classic is good for players, who love Classic, they will need Classic+ or Classic 2.0 some day. And Blizzard think, that such direction of development is more promising, than focusing on QOL and casual playerbase. But may be they're wrong? Yeah, may be casual playerbase is more choosy, so sometimes devs start to think, that catering to it isn't worth is, as it demands more, more and more, but quits way to easily. But at the same time casual playerbase doesn't actually asks for too much to be happy. It doesn't need dungeons. It doesn't need raids. It doesn't need complex game systems. Casual playerbase needs transmogs, mounts, pets and some trivial activities, where to get them. Is it really so much to ask?

How the hell is retail like classic?
Retail is so full of convenience it is laughable... you can play nearly the whole game without moving out of the main city.
A flight path through oribos becuase the zones are simply not even remotly connected otherwise? Oh my goooooood so much horrible inconvinience.... i have to ride lik 20 seconds to a flight master because they are EVERWHERE!! how dare they literally UNPLAYABLE!

Also: Playerbase doesn't ask for much to be happy.... Biggest lol ever. This post alone is a contradiction of it.

Loose loose choices? You mean the great RPG choice of covenants which CASUALS wanted and everyone else said was a stupid idea?^^

[Aucald]

"Game vs. Game" type threads don't tend to produce much in the way of constructive discussion or debate. Closing this.