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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Not blaming anyone or saying if its a good or bad thing - simply stating that a LOT of D3 style systems already have been implemented into wow, and this would be yet another.
    And there's a reason - it's a natural evolution of reward-centered systems. They tend to demand more and more efficiency, because that supports the goal (the rewards) best.

    If they wanted to change that they'd have to shift rewards more towards the journey rather than the destination; but that's very difficult and very expensive to do in a game like an MMO that has high player engagement and long-term content demands.

    It's a bit of a hole they dug themselves into. The gear-focused grind is just "what WoW is" at this point, and it's hard to pivot away from it without alienating people. But the consequence is that demands for more streamlining and efficiency tend to only ever increase.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's totally fine.

    It's also not what's happening here.

    Here's what it's ACTUALLY like:

    A: "I like the idea of a 5 hour flight vs. a 4-day drive"
    B: "I prefer a 4-day drive actually, it's more scenic and you get to experience the JOURNEY"
    A: "Cool, we both like different things and we can each do the one we like."
    B: "Actually, no. You are no longer allowed to take a 5-hour flight. You will now only have the option to do a 4-day drive and enjoy the JOURNEY."
    A: "Wait what, why does my preference get removed?"
    B: "Because it made me feel bad. I could still do what I liked when you did what you liked, but it felt bad and so now we all get to do what *I* like and nothing else. And enjoy the JOURNEY!"
    May be it would be ok, if it would actually be journey. But it's more like home<->job trip, you do every day, so it's so routine, that you no longer notice it and only thing, that bothers you - is amount of time, you waste instead of working or taking rest. Remember, that MMO isn't one-time game - it's long term game, where you do exactly the same content for weeks, months and years.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And there's a reason - it's a natural evolution of reward-centered systems. They tend to demand more and more efficiency, because that supports the goal (the rewards) best.

    If they wanted to change that they'd have to shift rewards more towards the journey rather than the destination; but that's very difficult and very expensive to do in a game like an MMO that has high player engagement and long-term content demands.

    It's a bit of a hole they dug themselves into. The gear-focused grind is just "what WoW is" at this point, and it's hard to pivot away from it without alienating people. But the consequence is that demands for more streamlining and efficiency tend to only ever increase.
    You are putting the horse before the cart - changing to a more diablo style world is the cause, not a result. We had multiple successful expansions before things shifted this way.

    I completely agree it would take a massive shift in game design, in regards to the acquisition of rewards, and that would be a massive undertaking and likely to alienate a LOT of the current players.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-06-29 at 06:27 AM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You are putting the horse before the cart - changing to a more diablo style world is the cause, not a result. We had multiple successful expansions before things shifted this way.

    I completely agree it would take a massive shift in game design, in regards to the acquisition of rewards, and that would be a massive undertaking and likely to alienate a LOT of the current players.
    No, I'm saying that the slow progression towards "Diablofication" is a direct consequence of them remaining so focused on rewards.

    That's not a new thing in WoW. That's why it's not surprising that over time, things would turn more towards a Diablo mindset, where rewards are the entire essence of the gameplay loop.

    We're not becoming more focused on rewards because of Diablo-style systems; rather we're having more Diablo-style systems because everything is so focused on rewards.

    Just look at SL Covenants. Their entire point, from the start, was that unless they come with player power, people won't care. But BECAUSE they came with player power, the entire system was a fucking nightmare until they just gave in, pulled the ripcord, and made it all freely swappable. They thought they could get people to care about the flavor, lore, identity etc. alongside the rewards; when in actuality, people cared about rewards more than anything else.

    That's the problem. Diablo-like systems are just a symptom of that problem.

  5. #25
    No-flying is big shift in game design philosophy. It's actually not about immersion. Immersion is obvious strawman argument, that has been proven to be wrong many times already. Remember old sweet "Master content on a ground - get flying", that has been proven to be big lie.

    It's about:
    1) Scaling world content down - making content development cheaper, because locations can be much smaller, so Blizzard assume that faster traveling method just isn't needed there, but scaling down doesn't happen without side effects, such as overcrowding, bottlenecking, exceeding respawn rates, etc.
    2) Forcing niche content, no all players like: jump puzzles, treasure/rare chasing, that is replacement of oldschool resource grind
    3) Overall making game more hardcore, challenging and competitive.

    Do you really think, that they will finally give up? I really doubt. They still need to fill their game with so called "content". What they've been avoiding for many years - is making flying part of this content. But don't assume, that they won't use flying as hostage for stretching their content this time. It will be some grind anyway.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Once again just because you can opt out of using something doesn't make it bad for the game or the people who don't like it hypocrites. That's like saying you can use a pocket knife in a gun fight if you hate guns but nobody in their right mind would do it and you could still hate guns. That tired sad argument just needs to stop.
    When you opt out of guns in a knife fight you directly disadvantage yourself in a competitive situation where both parties are actively trying to compete with each other. When you opt out of flying you don't. Someone else flying has zero effect on you.

  7. #27
    flying should require pathfinder and shouldn’t exist at all until the .1 patch of an xpac, but be account-wide..

    beyond that i don’t care..

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by relaxok View Post
    flying should require pathfinder and shouldn’t exist at all until the .1 patch of an xpac, but be account-wide..

    beyond that i don’t care..
    this is the problem with the community, you praise repetitive dailies and Forced gatekeeping, make flying a thing anyone has access to and put out proper content and fix tthings the community dont like, pathfinder has been generally disliked since release and for a good reason. im sure there are supporters but vast majority shows that it dislikes the design.

    same reason removing quest helper in wrath does not make sense and community is now backlashing out but they wont listen, i mean look at shadowlands bug reports and things were not even touched from closed beta to release.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    When Blizz decided there would be no more flying at the start of WoD, a 1200 page megathread lit up the skies as people who both love and hate flying took to the thread and railed on it from both sides. In that thread years ago we said:

    - Add faster methods of travel that flight paths. They did it.
    - Make the skies dangerous again. They did that too.
    - Restrict it to certain zones, but only after the Lore path was finished and not some REP requirements. Did it.
    - Add more interesting transport systems. Done.
    - Introduce new flight systems without so much looping. Mostly done.
    - Add some ground mounts, but allow most mounts to fly. Did it.
    - Remove Pathfinder and ease up with the rep requirements. Done again.

    While I know the anti-flight group claims it "ruins the game", I would bet a month's salary they are using flight for dailies, world bosses, rare hunting, and more. So thanks Blizz for actually paying attention and making flight something worth having again, and slow rolling it so it didn't interfere with the initial passes through the zones.

    What are your thoughts? Did they get it right? Did they do well enough leaving flight out of Oribos, The Maw, and Korthia? Since Zereth Mortis is essentially the new Timeless Isle, was this the better place to add flight, or should Korthia have been given flight and ZM left on the ground?
    Of course people who don't want to have flying in the game use it. You would basically cripple yourself if you don't, compared to others.
    No one ever said otherwise. That is one of the problems. IF you want to stay competetiv in a normal timeframe you use the tools that have been give to you. DOes not mean you have to like it.
    People ran thorgast despite hating it, no?

    Regarding your points: How is flying dangerous? Where? Flying still makes the world useless. Just implement a fast travel system. Click on map and port to quest. Basically the same. The current "minecraft creative mode flying" is just bad for the world.
    I have a bit of hope for flying in DF but that seems to be ONLY on the dragon isles... so it will probably be abandond after that because they are incapable of keeping a system.

    Flying never was worth anything. It was just a way to skip content, the content being the world. And WorldPvP... but i don't really care about pvp.

    Flying is there and should be used. Cat is out of the bag.
    They SHOULD make flying a part of the game. Vertical zones for example. WIth difficult multilevel dungeons and cliffs.

    But people complained that MALDRAXXUS is to complicated to navigate... rofl... imagine a vertical zones?

  10. #30
    Flying is fine as it currently is and i disagree with the notion that with DF flying will be what it should have been all along. Flying is a way to get across the map to where i want to be as fast as possible. Having flying itself be a chore, minigame or anything else will become tedious very fast imo, no matter how cool it might be at the start. Imagine the same daily quest that might be tedious but you only do it once a day, no big deal. But with flying becoming DF you have to do it all the time to get around.

    Even blizz knows it sucks because they dont dare put normal flying and DF up against each other. Most if not all players wont touch dragonflight if they got the choice to fly normally, as it should be.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's totally fine.

    It's also not what's happening here.

    Here's what it's ACTUALLY like:

    A: "I like the idea of a 5 hour flight vs. a 4-day drive"
    B: "I prefer a 4-day drive actually, it's more scenic and you get to experience the JOURNEY"
    A: "Cool, we both like different things and we can each do the one we like."
    B: "Actually, no. You are no longer allowed to take a 5-hour flight. You will now only have the option to do a 4-day drive and enjoy the JOURNEY."
    A: "Wait what, why does my preference get removed?"
    B: "Because it made me feel bad. I could still do what I liked when you did what you liked, but it felt bad and so now we all get to do what *I* like and nothing else. And enjoy the JOURNEY!"
    It's more like:
    A: "I like the idea of a 5 hour flight vs. a 4-day drive"
    B: "I prefer a 4-day drive actually, it's more scenic and you get to experience the JOURNEY"
    A: "Cool, we both like different things and we can each do the one we like. Oh and btw, each time you reach the destination you get 100 dollars"

    Now guess which most people will choose (including people who enjoy scenic drives).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It's more like:
    A: "I like the idea of a 5 hour flight vs. a 4-day drive"
    B: "I prefer a 4-day drive actually, it's more scenic and you get to experience the JOURNEY"
    A: "Cool, we both like different things and we can each do the one we like. Oh and btw, each time you reach the destination you get 100 dollars"

    Now guess which most people will choose (including people who enjoy scenic drives).
    Even IF that was true (and it really isn't), there's still two factors to consider:

    1. you're saying that people value $100 more than they value enjoying the journey; so maybe you shouldn't force EVERYONE into the option even the people who like that option wouldn't pick if they had a choice.

    2. why is the solution to make everyone pick the slower option? by what rationale do you give that preference weight over any other? Could it be that there's also a person C involved who goes "Everyone gets to do the 4-day drive! Oh and btw, for every month you spend traveling, I collect $30"?!

  13. #33
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Could live without it. Flying was pretty fine til now, but ofc this is fun and welcome.

    I see it as a secondary feature tho. But yes, welcome!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by danki1337 View Post
    this is the problem with the community, you praise repetitive dailies and Forced gatekeeping, make flying a thing anyone has access to and put out proper content and fix tthings the community dont like, pathfinder has been generally disliked since release and for a good reason. im sure there are supporters but vast majority shows that it dislikes the design.
    You have it entirely backwards.There is a vocal minority that disliked it. The actual majority just dealt with it and didn't have a problem with it.

  15. #35
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You have it entirely backwards.There is a vocal minority that disliked it. The actual majority just dealt with it and didn't have a problem with it.
    Yeah Shure, everyone loves the game the way it is. That's why its nearly dead.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You have it entirely backwards.There is a vocal minority that disliked it. The actual majority just dealt with it and didn't have a problem with it.
    the main issue of the game is the repetitive and filler design to keep us coming back in order to keep active subscription, this is part of the bigger picture thats very disliked by majority of players. and no its not a "vocal miniority". and just because youre dealing with it does not mean its accepted and praised, we HAVE to deal with it or we end up punished and behind, it creates the forced gameplay in order to be able to play the game, not fun or exciting or generally good game design.

    tldr they use pathfinder in order to force us to do activities that are not so fun because otherwise we are punished & then wonder why community is not as flourishing as it once was.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Davryn View Post
    I'm okay with how they handled flying in this expansion. As long as a zone is properly designed around the possibility or non-possibility of flying, that's fine. I didn't like the Maw, but I don't think flying would have made it better.
    Revendreth without flying was a miserable experience. With flying it became a hundred times better.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You have it entirely backwards.There is a vocal minority that disliked it. The actual majority just dealt with it and didn't have a problem with it.
    Is this another "players love meaningful choices just pay no attention to the 80% outliner" arguments?

    I honestly don't get why people would want world content to take even longer. Is aoeing down 20 defenseless mobs more rewarding because you have a lot of empty downtime traveling.

  19. #39
    no its still not right, but DF might be getting it right.. time will tell.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by danki1337 View Post
    the main issue of the game is the repetitive and filler design to keep us coming back in order to keep active subscription, this is part of the bigger picture thats very disliked by majority of players. and no its not a "vocal miniority". and just because youre dealing with it does not mean its accepted and praised, we HAVE to deal with it or we end up punished and behind, it creates the forced gameplay in order to be able to play the game, not fun or exciting or generally good game design.

    tldr they use pathfinder in order to force us to do activities that are not so fun because otherwise we are punished & then wonder why community is not as flourishing as it once was.
    Wrong. It IS a vocal minority. It always has been. The actual majority does not really care and adapts to what is in front of them. Just because you hate it does not mean the majority hate it. The majority are indifferent to it. he rest of your claims are nonsense because you are NEVER behind o9r punished. It isn't forced game play either because in order to actually play the game and engage in it, you HAVE to be on the ground., You can't complete quests flying. You can't kill things while mounted.

    People need to stop these claims because they are dishonest. You do not need flying at all to play the game. It's laziness talking.

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