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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Ah yes, the very gatekeeping I was talking about.
    The truth is not gatekeeping

    different games require different time investments

    you are asking for the game to be dumbed down and watered down because you can't put in sufficient time

    I'm telling you to kindly go play a different game

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerberous View Post
    Let's face it - Housing would actually be great for Casuals (and not only for them). By the way, the devs are in favor of housing, yet Blizz is simply to greedy to make the necessary resources available.
    Housing does not solve the main problem with WoW lack of solo/casual content, it would just be another pointless system barely used by anyone, we already know housing is not needed in WoW, so until they add in a ton of things to do for all players, its stupid to want pointless systems like housing.

  3. #143
    The Patient MCitra's Avatar
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    Like litterally everything?
    You have dungeons, mythic + keys, raids, pet-battle, achivements, transmogs, mounts, pvp, hidden things etc.

    You do the things you want to do in the peace and time you want to put into the game and are rewarded for the things you do.

    Not everything have to be defined ”i am casual so therefor i want casual specific items”

    I went from hardcore to semi hardcore to casual and i do the things I enjoy doing with the time i have (which is little) but there is plenty
    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work
    www.twitch.tv/mcitra

  4. #144
    Mechagnome Ragu4's Avatar
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    I cannot stop thinking about Body Type 1 and Body Type 2...it's fucking hilarious to me...and that's my casual WoW content....just staring at a wall and thinking....why?....I think the modern world is breaking me.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by MCitra View Post
    You have .. mythic + keys, raids, pvp
    Oh yeah, the typical casual gameplay. You just need a raiding guild and commit to a schedule. Yep. That is typical casual.

    Or do you talk about LFR and want to pretend it is fun?

    Yep, rated battlegrounds are so .. casual.

    Have you recently checked how many players play rated battlegrounds or even arena? While arena really is a small group activitiy? In general, casual gamers rarely play competetive gameplay.


    And these:

    Quote Originally Posted by MCitra View Post
    dungeons, pet-battle, achivements, transmogs, mounts, pvp, hidden things
    Dungeons: normal and heroic dungeons are available to casual gamers on the dungeon finder. But they do not offer a long enough progression path. Matchmade dungeons often drop worse quality than world quests.
    Pet-battles: I would rather play pokemon if i wanted pet battles. And the good thing about pokemon is it does not cost a monthly sub or MTR.
    achievements: 30 % of all achievements are raid and dungeon achievements. And really, what is fun about "Send 10,000 gnomes into the fire". If you sent one, you sent them all.
    transmogs: The best transmogs come from raids and mythic dungeons
    mounts: The best mounts come from raids and gladiator titles. Raids are played by around 20% of the players, and lets not talk about gladiators. You can get "Generic donkey #277" from doing world quests, but you should not forget that most players already have a full stable of different colored donkeys from the years they played.

    Anyone who plays for longer than 5 years has nothing to do in WoW anymore that suits to a casual or solo gamer playstyle short after an expac launch. Which is one of the reasons millions of players quit short after a new expac launch. As like in shadowlands, when 60% of the playerbase left in two months.

    If Blizzard wants casual gamers to stay, they have to offer solo player gameplay and dedicated matchmade group content. There should be something like Torghast, instanced solo and small group player gameplay which offers multiple difficulty levels and an ongoing gearing progression, where you also need the gear to progress in higher difficulties on its own.

    Torghast was not that bad in Shadowlands. Its only problem was that the guy who wrote the concept was a Hades fan and wanted rogue like gameplay in WoW. Which is kind of stupid, as the one and only incentive to play a MMORPG is to make your character stronger permanently, and that happens using gear upgrades. And you had no gear upgrades in Torghast. Which is the main reason it failed. And those legendaries were farmed really fast and not enough for ongoing progression.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-07-17 at 06:49 AM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Anyone who plays for longer than 5 years has nothing to do in WoW anymore short after an expac launch. Which is one of the reasons millions of players quit short after a new expac launch. As like in shadowlands, when 60% of the playerbase left in two months.
    You need to get rid of the notion that just because this is MMO, people have to sub for YEARS. No, there are people who are there for the long run, and there are people who buy the game, do the story, level up to max, try out a couple of dungeons and unsub. And nothing's wrong with that. Blizzard still makes money, and those people have fun for two months (which is probably more they play many other games). Sun still shines, flowers still bloom, the world is not ending.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You need to get rid of the notion that just because this is MMO, people have to sub for YEARS.
    But they should at least have enough fun to stay for some months, shouldn't they? Seems they did not really have in shadowlands. Time for the devs to create content and gameplay for those millions of players that leave disappointed. Every expac. Again and again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No, there are people who are there for the long run, and there are people who buy the game, do the story, level up to max, try out a couple of dungeons and unsub.
    But the problem is that is not what they would like to do. They would like a game that offers them ongoing gameplay. WoW simply is not that. WoW turns into "mythic+ and premade raid only" in its endgame and only offers ongoing gearing progression to minoroties.

    The lifeblood of gamers, the casual gamers, would stay for much longer if blizzard simply adressed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Blizzard still makes money, and those people have fun for two months (which is probably more they play many other games). Sun still shines, flowers still bloom, the world is not ending.
    Blizzard would make way more money if the devs learned to leave their comfort zone and start to design gameplay for millions and not for minorities only. And sorry, mythic+ and premade group raids are not that. Those components might be Hazzikostas favourite gameplay, but casual gamers are more likely to play solo gameplay and matchmade groups, and last are rather uninspired, badly designed and give no ongoing gearing progression. LFR, for example, has watered down gameplay derived from premade group gameplay, which is only working because it is forgiving. While well done made matchmade group content could be built based on personal accountability rather than group performance and even offer different difficulty levels.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    But the problem is that is not what they would like to do. They would like a game that offers them ongoing gameplay. WoW simply is not that. WoW turns into "mythic+ and premade raid only" in its endgame and only offers ongoing gearing progression to minoroties.
    Please stop projecting your own needs on other people. YOU would like to, you have no idea about them (and neither do I). But if you look for a game that you can enjoy for months, I'd argue the sensible idea would be to find a game that provides content you enjoy. Bashing a game that wants to provide different content seems a bit counter productive.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Please stop projecting your own needs on other people. YOU would like to, you have no idea about them (and neither do I). But if you look for a game that you can enjoy for months, I'd argue the sensible idea would be to find a game that provides content you enjoy. Bashing a game that wants to provide different content seems a bit counter productive.
    It is not bashing if you ask for content and gameplay the biggest part of the audience would actually profit from. And no, the biggest part of the wow audience surely are not raiders and mythic+ players but solo players and matchmade group players, casual gamers that are not willing to commit to raiding guilds or rated pvp groups.

    If you actually want millions to stay in the game, the game has to cater to them and not to premade group players only. If you want casual gamers to stay longer than a few weeks you have to create gameplay for them.

    I do not project anything, as the numbers show what happens. In the first two months of shadowlands, 60% of the players that bought the expac left the game. And no, that would not happen if the devs would add gameplay that is both rewarding and fun to casual gamers. Torghast, for example, was not rewarding enough to be played for longer, as it simply had zero gearing progression after legendary crafts. And no, a few temporary rogue like buffs do not replace proper gearing progression.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-07-17 at 07:14 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    It is not bashing if you ask for content and gameplay the biggest part of the audience would actually profit from. And no, the biggest part of the wow audience surely are not raiders and mythic+ players but solo players and matchmade group players, casual gamers that are not willing to commit to raiding guilds or rated pvp groups.
    I'm sorry, are you a gamer or Blizzard's business advisor now? So it's not about the game itself, you're just very, very worried that they don't make enough money...? That's a good samaritan if I ever saw one.

    Listen, this works exactly the same in every facet of life. If you don't enjoy food in a restaurant, you go to a different restaurant - you don't bitch and moan that they have to put burgers on the menu, because burgers are popular. If a band plays music you don't enjoy, you don't tell them: "Hey guys, make this music WE like, it's more popular, you will make more money!" That's silly, if not stupid. And before you say: "But, but, but in the past they played music I could enjoy!" - who cares? They want to play different music now, and they really don't need to hear from you how they could sell more records if they played the music you tell them to. So be a sensible cow and go find a band that already plays your kind of music maybe...?
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-07-17 at 07:30 AM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I'm sorry, are you a gamer or Blizzard's business advisor now? So it's not about the game itself, you're just very, very worried that they don't make enough money...? That's a good samaritan if I ever saw one.
    Well, there is no doubt they could make much more money if they actually knew how to adress millions of casual gamers and not premade group players only. If you have millions customers they are likely to use more MTRs and pay more subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Listen, this works exactly the same in every facet of life. If you don't enjoy food in a restaurant, you go to a different restaurant - you don't bitch and moan that they have to change the menu.
    On the other hand you cannot expect to appeal a large restaurant chain to many if all you offer is scampi and beauf stroganoff. The large restaurant chains became and stayed successfull because they appealed to a common tongue rather than specialities for a few only.

    The reason blizzard does not cater to many is not because they would not like to, the reason simply is their developers have a bias and a tunnel vision and do not know better. They have no idea how to adress many players as all they know themself is premade group play. Their game director is a number juggler from elitist jerks who knows nothing but mythic raids and mythic+ dungeons. While blizzard surely would like to appeal to millions, the guy currently in charge to design the game failed with all his concepts to actually appeal to many, as he simply is too incompetent to create systems that do that.

    Time to replace the cook. Get a new one who does know how to cook other things than beauf stroganoff and scampi. Get a guy who knows how to create great burgers and salads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If a band plays music you don't enjoy, you don't tell them: "Hey guys, make this music WE like, it's more popular, you will make more money!" That's silly, if not stupid.
    If a band i listened to for years changes their music style from hardrock to folk songs i surely would not attend their sessions anymore as like millions of other hardcore fans also would not. And hey, the first concert would be a shitshow. Imagine your favourite hardrock group would get on the stage and do polka on flutes and violins while you expect their new death metal album. Believe me, the "booos" and "stoppp it" cries would be louder than any "Is that a joke?" comments from people towards game developers.

    Also, the real problem about Blizzard is, they want to appeal to many, their developers just do not know how. Incompetence does not replace the fact Blizzard has a mission statement that says they want to reach as many players as possible with their product. They did not, quite contrary to your idea, change their target group.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-07-17 at 07:34 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    If a band i listened to for years changes their music style from hardrock to folk songs i surely would not attend their sessions anymore
    You want a game that can be enjoyed by as many people as possible. They are the hardrock band - and you tell them to play Taylor Swift tunes. You yourself admitted above that they should be a "large restaurant chain"; and what do large restaurant chains serve...? Nothing sophisticated, that I can tell you. Anyway, have fun in your quest here; maybe one day they will serve you the burger you so crave. Or maybe you will realize there's already a burger bar on the other corner...? Nah, who am I kidding.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-07-17 at 07:43 AM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You want a game that can be enjoyed by as many people as possible. They are the hardrock band - and you tell them to play Taylor Swift tunes. You yourself admitted above that they should be a "large restaurant chain"; and what do large restaurant chains serve...? Nothing sophisticated, that I can tell you.
    No, actually WoW never was a "hardrock band", they have always been the mainstream MMORPG from start. You should ask yourself if you just want WoW to be "hardrock" yourself and try to make it something it never was intended to be.

    Beside that you ignore all of my other statements from the last post for your convenience, obviously.

    Blizzard surely does not want WoW to be a minority game. They always talked about that they want to appeal as large audiences as possible.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    If Blizzard wants casual gamers to stay, they have to offer solo player gameplay and dedicated matchmade group content.
    They also have to refrain from telling the casual gamers that the devs hate their guts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    i was a month on vaication and the first thing i read is this shit again, Casuals =/= bad they will do what they have done last 18 years
    Which is largely "stop playing the game and not return".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    To be fair, there are far more bad players than good players in any game.
    That's exactly what "easy to learn, hard to master" means.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #155
    So if my buddy who only plays 2 days a week does a mythic dungeon does that mean he's not casual anymore??

    Like if we put together a raid on Sunday mornings do I need to start calling him an elitist??

  16. #156
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Something I was wondering recently. Assuming theres no new big features to be announced.... what is there for casual players in Dragonflight? It, as of now, just looks like another WoD-esque: We only care about what hardcore players do. But at least WoD had the Garrison which, while kinda shit, was at least something that all players could take part in.
    There is this dragon flying thingy with annoying windy visuals that might be fun for 10 minutes, then you have to wait to next expansion.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Ultimately, I think that the issue Blizz has is that they're trying to constantly fix or adjust a system that has fundamental flaws and/or is based upon outdated or flat-out bad design philosophies. Until there's some changes to the base ideas and design upon which the rest of the game is developed, we're going to get more of the same... maybe just a different flavor.
    Yes. I was looking in the DF PR to see if there was any talk of changes in design philosophy. I've seen nothing. There is no reason to think they're doing more than rearranging the deck chairs on this sinking ship.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #158
    I would consider getting all m+ 15s done pretty casual

    Usually takes me around 3-4 resets about 2 hours a day then I quit til next season

    So if you play casually over a season you could get ksm really easily on multiple classes

  19. #159
    I am Murloc! Usagi Senshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes. I was looking in the DF PR to see if there was any talk of changes in design philosophy. I've seen nothing. There is no reason to think they're doing more than rearranging the deck chairs on this sinking ship.
    Pretty much where I'm at, casual for me was random M+ 8-15 in Legion, chasing legendary drops, completing artifact transmogs, and replaying world content (I must have refilled that Nightfallen rep bar 80+ times) with some PVP on 6 characters. I had fun with that, too much IMO.

    Legion was a sweet spot (even tore me away from FF14 for a good while) for me and they still fucked it up due to try hard dipshits complaining nonstop.

    I'll stick with FF14
    Tikki tikki tembo, Usagi no Yojimbo, chari bari ruchi pip peri pembo!

  20. #160
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    I don't understand this thread. What have casuals been doing for years if DF is somehow nothing for casuals?

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