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  1. #1

    Evoker Healer - will it be just another Restoration Druid / Mistweaver Monk?

    Title.

    If I'm going to play an Evoker, it will be a healer. But there lies the problem. They already said Evoker will somehow have HoTs and time-altering effects, but all of that sounds inevitably like just another incarnation of Restoration Druid.

    Back in MoP and WoD Monks felt quite unique due to their Chi mechanic and while relying on HoTs, they still were more than just Druids. But since Legion and at least with BfA, Mistweaver has become just another Restoration lookalike, working very similarly (unless you play Fistweaving). But the general approach was the same, cover your group in HoTs and that's it. Sure, Vivify works instead of Druid's Nourish, but both specs share a lot of similarities.

    To make that even worse, Druids already have these skills and talents that make their HoTs shorter, stronger, extend their duration or increase their tick-rate. So basically everything that would be part of Evoker healer is already part of Druid. I really have no idea how they could separate Evoker from Druid in that regard. And sorry, a chargeable breath heal won't change that. It would just be another Vivify-situation, but instead of being casted it's channeled or whatever. And not like Monk's statue and even Tea has a breath heal already...

    I mean we've gotten zero information about the class and skills, which is highly problematic. So does that mean Blizzard has barely any clue on how to develop this class? Or do they not want to show us because [...]?

    How would you try to avoid Evoker healer being too similar to Druid or Monk?
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  2. #2
    I'm feeling the difference with evoker healer will be that they are supposed to have those press the button for greater effect. Thats a mechanic no other healers have. Whatever other similarities there exists is hard to to until beta is out.

  3. #3
    Maybe we should just wait until we have a bit more information, before we should compare them to other specs? I mean, Shamans have HoTs and time-altering effects, are they also the same as druids?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Maybe we should just wait until we have a bit more information, before we should compare them to other specs? I mean, Shamans have HoTs and time-altering effects, are they also the same as druids?
    We know how Evoker healer will work because they told us. And they explained exactly what recent Restoration Druids can do. Shamans use Riptide and - if you count that as a HoT - HST as well, Healing Rain too - so yes, not too far off, but Monk and Druid are way closer in gameplay than Shaman and Druid. Shamans still mostly rely on direct heals. And Shamans don't have time-altering effects that make their HoTs stronger, but Druids do - even more than just one, they have several active skills and passive traits.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    We know how Evoker healer will work because they told us. And they explained exactly what recent Restoration Druids can do. Shamans use Riptide and - if you count that as a HoT - HST as well, Healing Rain too - so yes, not too far off, but Monk and Druid are way closer in gameplay than Shaman and Druid. Shamans still mostly rely on direct heals. And Shamans don't have time-altering effects that make their HoTs stronger, but Druids do - even more than just one, they have several active skills and passive traits.
    could you give some examples of spells that are similiar or parts of the rotation of evoker and druid ?

  6. #6
    By time altering effects I'm sure they literally mean effects that are time magic in theme that can be used "heal" the player. Like undoing the last X seconds of damage over the next 10 seconds, or having a time bomb type thing where you cast it now, but it doesn't go off for another 5 seconds or something.

    Or maybe it will have shielding type effects where the heal itself won't go off until X amount of damage has been done.

    Without knowing too much more, I'll hold judgement on how it will go. I'm personally going the DPS route, but it will be nice to have a healing option.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    I'm feeling the difference with evoker healer will be that they are supposed to have those press the button for greater effect. Thats a mechanic no other healers have. Whatever other similarities there exists is hard to to until beta is out.
    This. I think a lot of, not just healer, but both specs is going to be heavily reliant on charging up skills. Weather this is good or not I have no idea, but i'm in the same boat as OP, will be healing as evoker.

    I don't see too much problem with them sharing some aspects with other healer mechanics, and hope this charge up thing is unique enough to set them apart. (I can already see evokers dying because they wanted to get the full charge off before moving though. I know dps will be able to move while attacking in some cases, suppose that will apply to healers too)
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    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Title.

    If I'm going to play an Evoker, it will be a healer. But there lies the problem. They already said Evoker will somehow have HoTs and time-altering effects, but all of that sounds inevitably like just another incarnation of Restoration Druid.

    Back in MoP and WoD Monks felt quite unique due to their Chi mechanic and while relying on HoTs, they still were more than just Druids. But since Legion and at least with BfA, Mistweaver has become just another Restoration lookalike, working very similarly (unless you play Fistweaving). But the general approach was the same, cover your group in HoTs and that's it. Sure, Vivify works instead of Druid's Nourish, but both specs share a lot of similarities.

    To make that even worse, Druids already have these skills and talents that make their HoTs shorter, stronger, extend their duration or increase their tick-rate. So basically everything that would be part of Evoker healer is already part of Druid. I really have no idea how they could separate Evoker from Druid in that regard. And sorry, a chargeable breath heal won't change that. It would just be another Vivify-situation, but instead of being casted it's channeled or whatever. And not like Monk's statue and even Tea has a breath heal already...

    I mean we've gotten zero information about the class and skills, which is highly problematic. So does that mean Blizzard has barely any clue on how to develop this class? Or do they not want to show us because [...]?

    How would you try to avoid Evoker healer being too similar to Druid or Monk?
    I think you're assuming far too much, worrying/complaining about things you've seen but the barest glimpse of.

    For one i think you've misunderstood i.e. time altering effects to be manipulated hots when they could just as easily refer to i.e. the arcane mage's "turn back time" thing or a brewmaster's stagger mechanic.

    Now of course i am not certain of these things either - but thet is exactly the point, it is uncertain. And worrying over an uncertain implementation of an uncertain class with uncertain implications, well, that's just slightly absurd.
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  9. #9
    How about we actually see the spec in any meaningful way before you start building your strawman?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    could you give some examples of spells that are similiar or parts of the rotation of evoker and druid ?
    They said two things about Evoker healers that are similar or identical to how Druids play: the focus on using healing over time effects and the usage of time-alterting effects that buff their healing over time effects.

    Yes, we haven't seen anything of it, so I base this on what they said when they previewed the class - making these assumptions is not my fault though as they haven't given us anything in 10 weeks to work with.

    Druid has these skills and traits for example:

    Circle of Life and Death: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time.

    Photosynthesis: While your Lifebloom is on yourself, your periodic heals heal 20% faster.

    Flourish: Extends the duration of all of your heal over time effects on friendly targets within 60 yards by 8 sec, and increases the rate of your heal over time effects by 100% for 8 sec.

    Verdant Infusion: Swiftmend no longer consumes a heal over time effect, and extends the duration of your heal over time effects on the target by 10 sec.

    I have a hard time with what kind of stuff they could come up to change the HoT-playstyle of Evokers from the one of Resto Druids. About the charging thing: didn't they say it's only for their breath heal / attack they showed in the trailer?

    Otherwise Katchii's ideas don't sound too terrible, but I have a hard time imagining how they're going to balance that against other healers.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    I'm feeling the difference with evoker healer will be that they are supposed to have those press the button for greater effect. Thats a mechanic no other healers have. Whatever other similarities there exists is hard to to until beta is out.
    Holy priest have had several versions of that between chakras and holy word spells. What I am a little worried about is restoration druid being neutered at the start of the expansion if not the entire thing. Blizzard has a history of eliminating competing specs to the new class.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    By time altering effects I'm sure they literally mean effects that are time magic in theme that can be used "heal" the player. Like undoing the last X seconds of damage over the next 10 seconds, or having a time bomb type thing where you cast it now, but it doesn't go off for another 5 seconds or something.

    Or maybe it will have shielding type effects where the heal itself won't go off until X amount of damage has been done.

    Without knowing too much more, I'll hold judgement on how it will go. I'm personally going the DPS route, but it will be nice to have a healing option.
    That'd be an insanely broken indirect battle res for high-end progression. Or another way to callenge tank swap mechanics quite a bit. Sounds chaotic, I like it.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Title.

    If I'm going to play an Evoker, it will be a healer. But there lies the problem. They already said Evoker will somehow have HoTs and time-altering effects, but all of that sounds inevitably like just another incarnation of Restoration Druid.

    Back in MoP and WoD Monks felt quite unique due to their Chi mechanic and while relying on HoTs, they still were more than just Druids. But since Legion and at least with BfA, Mistweaver has become just another Restoration lookalike, working very similarly (unless you play Fistweaving). But the general approach was the same, cover your group in HoTs and that's it. Sure, Vivify works instead of Druid's Nourish, but both specs share a lot of similarities.

    To make that even worse, Druids already have these skills and talents that make their HoTs shorter, stronger, extend their duration or increase their tick-rate. So basically everything that would be part of Evoker healer is already part of Druid. I really have no idea how they could separate Evoker from Druid in that regard. And sorry, a chargeable breath heal won't change that. It would just be another Vivify-situation, but instead of being casted it's channeled or whatever. And not like Monk's statue and even Tea has a breath heal already...

    I mean we've gotten zero information about the class and skills, which is highly problematic. So does that mean Blizzard has barely any clue on how to develop this class? Or do they not want to show us because [...]?

    How would you try to avoid Evoker healer being too similar to Druid or Monk?
    Technically every healer has a HoT ability. The difference between the specs is how much of their healing is based on it. Druids are pretty much built around the HoTs, while Priests in Holy only use it passively over Prayer of Mending (Talented) or not at all. So the fact that the Evoker does have HoTs isn't really saying much yet. Their unique thing will likely be the "channeled" ability that increases depending on how long you press the button.

    The question for me isn't really if the class will be very similar to another, but if the Devs know what it means that a class is based around an ability that requires them to "channel" an ability for 3 seconds or so. Because they sure as hell aren't planning it for other classes in current raid encounters or even in dungeons.

    "Standing still" for 3 seconds is nearly impossible without having some aoe mechanic take your head off at the moment and unless the Evoker can use that ability while moving, they won't have a good time.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They said two things about Evoker healers that are similar or identical to how Druids play: the focus on using healing over time effects and the usage of time-alterting effects that buff their healing over time effects.

    Yes, we haven't seen anything of it, so I base this on what they said when they previewed the class - making these assumptions is not my fault though as they haven't given us anything in 10 weeks to work with.

    Druid has these skills and traits for example:

    Circle of Life and Death: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time.

    Photosynthesis: While your Lifebloom is on yourself, your periodic heals heal 20% faster.

    Flourish: Extends the duration of all of your heal over time effects on friendly targets within 60 yards by 8 sec, and increases the rate of your heal over time effects by 100% for 8 sec.

    Verdant Infusion: Swiftmend no longer consumes a heal over time effect, and extends the duration of your heal over time effects on the target by 10 sec.

    I have a hard time with what kind of stuff they could come up to change the HoT-playstyle of Evokers from the one of Resto Druids. About the charging thing: didn't they say it's only for their breath heal / attack they showed in the trailer?

    Otherwise Katchii's ideas don't sound too terrible, but I have a hard time imagining how they're going to balance that against other healers.
    I think you may be misunderstanding what they mean by "time-altering" effects. You're applying an interpretation that it means bonuses or traits that literally alter how the HoT's work. Given that the Evoker is based on the powers of the Aspects, I think it literally means time magic based abilities that use time magic to heal a player or prevent damage.

    As you said though, I have no idea what that actually means as far as abilities or how that would be balanced against other healers. I don't think an ability that actually nullifies the damage done in the last X seconds would be implemented, that would be broken AF. But maybe that theme could be used to create a HoT effect that IS based on the damage done in the last X amount of time, so that it could easily be balanced around.

    And I have no doubt that the spell charging will be in full effect here too, with spell potencies being based on how long it's been charged. I see this being measured just like Combo Points, but get filled based on how long it's been held. Abilities can be used with 0, 1, 2 or 3 charges with the potency being affected by each charge with potential additional effects if it gets fully charged. This could affect how much time the spell mitigates/ heals for.

    Or maybe the healing is like a healer induced Stagger effect rather than something controlled by the tank like with Brewmaster, where they can use time magic to spread the damage over a longer period of time rather than it hitting the tank all at once. That would make a Brewmaster + Evoker healing combo OP though so I'm not sure that would work...it would need to be balanced accordingly.

    there's a lot of potential. I wouldn't get hung up on the word choice and how similar it sounds to existing classes, just yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    That'd be an insanely broken indirect battle res for high-end progression. Or another way to callenge tank swap mechanics quite a bit. Sounds chaotic, I like it.
    Oh, agreed on the broken part. Was meant to just convey the idea, but that exact implementation would be broken as hell being able to cheese all kinds of things. Maybe they just put a cap on how much damage could be mitigated/healed and it could still only be used on a tank that survives the hit to begin with.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Oh, agreed on the broken part. Was meant to just convey the idea, but that exact implementation would be broken as hell being able to cheese all kinds of things. Maybe they just put a cap on how much damage could be mitigated/healed and it could still only be used on a tank that survives the hit to begin with.
    My first thought goes to some variation of the Mage ability Alter Time.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I think you may be misunderstanding what they mean by "time-altering" effects. You're applying an interpretation that it means bonuses or traits that literally alter how the HoT's work. Given that the Evoker is based on the powers of the Aspects, I think it literally means time magic based abilities that use time magic to heal a player or prevent damage.
    They spefically said that the time-altering abilities will improve Evoker HoTs, that's why I picked these examples. So from the preview it sounded more like Green provides all the healing while Bronze just enhances or improves that one way or another. At least for me the preview made Evoker healer just another HoT-focused healer of which we already have two, if we count Shaman, three.
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  17. #17
    will it be simmilar to other healing specs? well, yes, bcs its a healing spec...
    will it be in any way close to any of them? we have no clue, as we have no info about it so far, so its kinda pointless speculation for now... well see when we get to play it in beta

  18. #18
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    The time-altering ability to their potential healing HoT's will probably be either 1.) increasing their current duration à la Flourish, or 2.) speeding up the HoT's ticks so your target is healed faster, effectively ending the HoT earlier than it's normal duration. Depending on what kind of healing HoT's the spec gets, utility like this could be really fun.


    Then you consider the Empower aspect. Using a "charge bar" to decide how effective you want your specific spell to be -- whether that is just increasing the heal amount or maybe even how long a HoT will be -- seems really interesting to me if they add in some time-altering mechanics to it.





    This "Dream Breath" spell looks like a straight up frontal blast of healing with the longer you charge the bigger the heal... or it could be something completely different based on how it interacts with charging it up. Who knows?


    Another example/theorycraft, what if you get an Alter Time-like ability that you can cast on allies and depending on how much you let it charge, it absorbs more damage before "returning" the ally back to a time before it took that damage?


    Can't wait to play this spec.
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2022-07-03 at 10:15 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They spefically said that the time-altering abilities will improve Evoker HoTs, that's why I picked these examples. So from the preview it sounded more like Green provides all the healing while Bronze just enhances or improves that one way or another. At least for me the preview made Evoker healer just another HoT-focused healer of which we already have two, if we count Shaman, three.
    They may have HoT's...every healer has HoT's. That doesn't make them HoT focused.

    Druid is definitely HoT focused.

    Having time based magic that affects what HoT's they do have doesn't necessarily make them a HoT focused class. It just means they'll have HoT's as part of their kit.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    They may have HoT's...every healer has HoT's. That doesn't make them HoT focused.

    Druid is definitely HoT focused.

    Having time based magic that affects what HoT's they do have doesn't necessarily make them a HoT focused class. It just means they'll have HoT's as part of their kit.
    They specifically said that their healing will be focused on HoTs though (and their chargeable breath heal).
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