Do you think talent trees will be cookie cutter?

[Fitsu]

I don't think they will, I know they will. Even if every choice was perfectly balanced, 99% of the community would still just go to Icy-Veins and do what it says. I don't know why so many people pretend they care about player choice when in reality almost everyone just does what a guide tells them to do, whatever is the best.

The only thing that talent trees really do is improve the levelling experience because it gives a feeling of growing stronger with every level and mini-goals along the way.

[Utrrabbit]

Been looking over the talent trees for Dragonflight. They sure look like they are going to be cookie-cutter/Spec-This-Way-Or-Denied-To-Group like it was back when they had talent trees before.

What do you think from what you've seen (and what you know about the playerbase)?

Are the new talent trees going to usher in a new era of flexibility? Or is it going to be a one-spec disaster in the making?

Their will be for the top end meta. However for the majority of the playerbase it will not matter.

Their is also a difference between meta and viable. Blood Mallet has done the math and every spec will have 2.8 million possible builds. If only 0.5% of those are "viable" that is 1400 builds.

Remember meta does not mean viable and meta only matters to the first top 5 world guilds, even guilds below that will tell you they can get away with not using the meta.

Another thing is a lot of people especially on MMO-C think they are better than they actually are. So they think they need to use the meta, when in fact they are not actually that good and the meta build is just a crutch for them.

[glowpipe]

You know how stupid this sounds right, removing the ability to check players performance means you wouldnt know what players were bad or not and causing you to wipe on a boss for weeks, WoW is about the numbers and bosses are tuned so players should at least be able to play a class to a reasonable level, in raiding evaluating player performance is a 100% must and also on pushing high level keys.

This only happens because the game is currently being designed for addons. Without addons like dps meters, insane dps checks like we have now wouldn't exist

[kenn9530]

This only happens because the game is currently being designed for addons. Without addons like dps meters, insane dps checks like we have now wouldn't exist

Without addons the fights become so easy anyone could kill everything and there is no challenge at all in the game, WoW has always been a game involving numbers, you can only tune a boss so much without the addition of addons, FF14 has clear boss mechanics you can notice without addons and those fights are still far too easy compared to some mythic bosses in WoW.

[Toppy]

Without addons the fights become so easy anyone could kill everything and there is no challenge at all in the game, WoW has always been a game involving numbers, you can only tune a boss so much without the addition of addons, FF14 has clear boss mechanics you can notice without addons and those fights are still far too easy compared to some mythic bosses in WoW.

Look, its someone who hasnt done ultimate or high end savage content.

[Caerrona]

Look, its someone who hasnt done ultimate or high end savage content.

Tbh there is no spinning savage into "hard".

Ultimate very much so but not savage.

[klaps_05]

New talent tree loadouts/presets will be hilarious - "hey guys, X here, make sure to follow and subscribe for my weakauras and tier 3 sub for my talent presets for ALL content!"

[ellieg]

Yes. A lot of the spec specific talents will come down to tuning. Talent preset X will be mathematically the highest for that specific content and everyone who cares abt performance will specific that way. Maybe 1 or 2 individual talents can get swapped but im thinking at least 25 of the points will be locked. For the general talents, all the thruput ones will be locked and you'll have a little flexibility on the utilities but there will be a cookie cutter for that too

[NineSpine]

Tbh there is no spinning savage into "hard".

Ultimate very much so but not savage.

If it is easy, why don't you go one shot it and claim a world first title and make us all look stupid?

[SinR]

"Oh you're doing M+? Run Talent Selection A"
"Oh you're doing Raids? Run Talent Selection B"
"Oh you're Pee Vee Pee? Run Talent Selection C"

Same as it ever was

[kenn9530]

Look, its someone who hasnt done ultimate or high end savage content.

I have done plenty content in ff14 its all much easier compared to more difficult mythic bosses in WoW that is an undeniable fact, if you really think ff14 has more difficult content then you lack the skill to clear everything in WoW while its current and not nerfed.

[MoanaLisa]

You obviously don't respect the people you play with if you are willing to be a selfish cunt and not play for the group.

And yes... there will be different builds for different activities but if you are build C for content A instead of build A for content A you are infact garbage and don't respect anyone around you.

Straight up looking for a carry while sitting on your virtue signaling high horse.

The whole point of playing with friends or in a guild is that sometimes a friend needs to be carried, other times you need to be carried by friends when you're gearing up. That's how raid groups progress. At least it used to be. Maybe not in your world. I don't know. What I do know is this: I don't pug. I don't play with strangers and your post is the best encapsulation of why I avoid that scene like the plague. Who in their right mind would voluntarily put themselves in a group with someone who says stuff like this?

[NineSpine]

I have done plenty content in ff14 its all much easier compared to more difficult mythic bosses in WoW that is an undeniable fact, if you really think ff14 has more difficult content then you lack the skill to clear everything in WoW while its current and not nerfed.

I'm confused why you aren't going and getting all the world firsts in FF14 and making everyone else look stupid.

[kenn9530]

I'm confused why you aren't going and getting all the world firsts in FF14 and making everyone else look stupid.

Both games are outdated and boring after a certain amount of playtime so i dont need to mythic raid anymore or raid in FF14, it doesnt change the simple fact that the hardest fight in FF14 falls short of the hardest fights in WoW, FF14 has always had a easier playstyle, even the so called hardest raid in FF14 was still cleared within a week.

[Revamp Man]

New talent tree loadouts/presets will be hilarious - "hey guys, X here, make sure to follow and subscribe for my weakauras and tier 3 sub for my talent presets for ALL content!"

i mean they could do that but i think people would have an easier time just going to their respective class discord and copying that

[NineSpine]

Both games are outdated and boring after a certain amount of playtime so i dont need to mythic raid anymore or raid in FF14, it doesnt change the simple fact that the hardest fight in FF14 falls short of the hardest fights in WoW, FF14 has always had a easier playstyle, even the so called hardest raid in FF14 was still cleared within a week.

"How long till world first" is meaningless. FF14 doesn't have huge amounts of gear inflation like WoW does. Everyone walks into the raid with the gear to beat it in FF14. WoW is structured around needing gear from the raid to progress in the raid. If people walked into mythic raids in WoW with mythic gear right off the rip, do you really think it would take a couple of weeks? No, it would be done week one just like most content in FF14. That said, plenty of fights in FF14 have taken weeks, so this is a moot point.

Let me ask you this: How long did Dragonsong's Reprise take to clear and how long did Mythic Jailer take to clear?

[Zorachus]

Not my post, but very good point made;


Typeß

For anyone who cant tell, there really is no hybridity in the new talent system, most the CLASS TREE are the abilities you could have gotten leveling up as normal and selecting a spec, there is nothing hybrid about this, when you choose all your talents at the end of the day you will LITERALLY be the exact same character you are right now with NO MEANINGFUL choice…i.e. Are you gonna NOT TAKE the unholy pet talent in class tree and try to be unholy spec ? NO because half your kit will be useless if you did that. TALENTS are meant to ENHANCE your abilities not make you CHOOSE TO HAVE YOUR CLASS ABILITIES THAT YOU USED TO GET JUST FOR LEVELING. I really hate blizzard sometimes, they are taking your normal class and breaking it apart and letting you “reselect” those abilities to make it FEEL like you are getting something new when you arent. This just shows how desperate they are to change ANYTHING to make the game feel different, they have NO VISION left and it hurts. IM definitely not paying money for nothing new, and in fact maybe pruned from what SL is to play the EXACT same rotation for the next 3 years…AGAIN.


As I posted in the other thread, the new talents trees are the same things we have now, but with extra steps. You’re still going to choose between the same talents we have now on each row, but with the added clutter of having the put points in all your basic spec and class abilities.

Blizzard, go back to vanilla, tbc, and wrath and look at those trees for examples. Dont bother wasting time on a system that does the exact same thing as the current talents, but has a different coat of paint.

Like I would love a true hybrid class option, allow Death Knight Tank to be like a combo of Blood + Unholy, give me a pet and some diseases to spread, even if a combo spec isn't the recommended top Raiding or M+ spec, let us have a fun mix of different specs combined if we'd like. Or a reworking for Havoc Demon Hunter, give us a revised rotation and some new spells, or allow some Vengeance spells in Havoc. They should mix it up, allow funky new combo spec;s with new rotations, etc... But sounds like we're getting nothing new, will just be the same builds at the end of the day, with pretty much the same rotations.

[Kithelle]

counter-question: what was ever non-cookie-cutter?

Bingo

Everything is cookie cutter...talents...covenants...gear

[Ielenia]

Not my post, but very good point made;


Typeß

For anyone who cant tell, there really is no hybridity in the new talent system, most the CLASS TREE are the abilities you could have gotten leveling up as normal and selecting a spec, there is nothing hybrid about this, when you choose all your talents at the end of the day you will LITERALLY be the exact same character you are right now with NO MEANINGFUL choice…i.e. Are you gonna NOT TAKE the unholy pet talent in class tree and try to be unholy spec ? NO because half your kit will be useless if you did that. TALENTS are meant to ENHANCE your abilities not make you CHOOSE TO HAVE YOUR CLASS ABILITIES THAT YOU USED TO GET JUST FOR LEVELING. I really hate blizzard sometimes, they are taking your normal class and breaking it apart and letting you “reselect” those abilities to make it FEEL like you are getting something new when you arent. This just shows how desperate they are to change ANYTHING to make the game feel different, they have NO VISION left and it hurts. IM definitely not paying money for nothing new, and in fact maybe pruned from what SL is to play the EXACT same rotation for the next 3 years…AGAIN.


As I posted in the other thread, the new talents trees are the same things we have now, but with extra steps. You’re still going to choose between the same talents we have now on each row, but with the added clutter of having the put points in all your basic spec and class abilities.

Blizzard, go back to vanilla, tbc, and wrath and look at those trees for examples. Dont bother wasting time on a system that does the exact same thing as the current talents, but has a different coat of paint.

Like I would love a true hybrid class option, allow Death Knight Tank to be like a combo of Blood + Unholy, give me a pet and some diseases to spread, even if a combo spec isn't the recommended top Raiding or M+ spec, let us have a fun mix of different specs combined if we'd like. Or a reworking for Havoc Demon Hunter, give us a revised rotation and some new spells, or allow some Vengeance spells in Havoc. They should mix it up, allow funky new combo spec;s with new rotations, etc... But sounds like we're getting nothing new, will just be the same builds at the end of the day, with pretty much the same rotations.

I one-hundred percent agree with the boldened part, especially since it evidences one my biggest gripes with the new talent system: it takes baseline abilities and makes them into "talents". Abilities you would get by leveling alone. Abilities that are the core of your class and spec.

And the cherry on top is that interrupts are now talents. Blizzard, you had an opportunity for greatness, here. Yet you decided to fuck it up. Again.

[Zorachus]

I one-hundred percent agree with the boldened part, especially since it evidences one my biggest gripes with the new talent system: it takes baseline abilities and makes them into "talents". Abilities you would get by leveling alone. Abilities that are the core of your class and spec.

And the cherry on top is that interrupts are now talents. Blizzard, you had an opportunity for greatness, here. Yet you decided to fuck it up. Again.

"Interrupts" are talents now? Ugh, why? So these bloated new talent trees are nothing new at all, we'll just select all this stuff, just to be right back where we are now.

Man I was hoping for some super cool cross spec combos and funky new talents to create a weird hybrid spec, but that's not happening, it's just dozens of talents to fill in, only to be the same character as in Shittylands.

This is why I liked FF11's subjob system. While not all combinations are viable, it does bring a variety of utility to a party structure. You can either fill in the gaps of your primary job or reinforce its strengths.