Villain Motivation: Primalists

[Therougetitan]

A lot of the Dragonflight story looks good to me. I enjoy the protodrakes like Raszageth who have beef with the aspects and instead turned toward the elements. That is interesting. However, there is a flaw noticeable in the story with the mortals serving Raszageth. There is no stated reason why they are doing so. They want to go to the elements and do not trust the cosmic force of Order. But why? Cult of the Damned had people seeking immortality. The Twilight Cultists were seeking the end. The mortal forces for the Primalists don't make any compelling argument for why they left their peoples to fight against them.

This reminds me a lot of the Jailer's motivations in Shadowlands which remained vague until the final cinematic with the expansions conclusion and fell flat. I don't know if they are having problems writing villain motivation. They at least got Raszageth right so credit there. There is also a character called Kurog Grimtotem who they could bring in Magatha and explain their motivations there but alas they do not. I see a lot of night elves using the elements almost like shamans but no reason to why they went that path. From all of the questing and testable pre-patch event on the PTR I did not get a clear grasp of their motivations beyond being fodder, and yes, they are supposed to be fodder but as mentioned there are other cultists/mortal forces that are more compelling to face.

Likewise the motivations of the elementals are not existing. A lot of the expansion has to do with the elemetal proto drakes but not the forces they draw upon. There is no mention of how the elemental lords like Thunderaan or Neptulon feel on what is happening if they support or are against it. There is no large involvement from the Earthen Ring who helped the elemental planes or Thrall who was a large part of Cataclysm which involved both dragons and the elements.

Has anyone else that has quested through Dragonflight feel this way?

[Celement]

Its wow... you pit more thought into the plot then the writing team.

Their only trick is to make sure all past villains have some small little token spot in each expansion soon to then claim a long drawn out plot later.

[Cheezits]

Regarding Magatha, she had an NPC in a very early build so it probably isn't a coincidence that her relative is a raid boss. She has a good chance to appear at the post-raid story.

Also the Primalist motivations seem very clear based on the tidbits of lore we are getting in prepatch: the Keepers influenced the transformation of drakes into dragons by putting their Arcane/Order magic into the lifesprings of the Dragon Isles. This is the purpose of the water at Tyrhold. While it hasn't had a BAD effect we know of yet, people on Twitter have already complained about the Titans forcibly morphing protodrakes into a race that serves them because "it's not moral". Which is the point: sometimes good results (dragons) have questionable origins (forced magic influence).

It's freedom vs imposed order. Now, we have yet to see a GOOD thing that could happen under Primalist leadership, but they hate the titans and their keepers for forcing things around on Azeroth.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well Titans certainly have some issues... the whole develop as we expect or exterminatus thing... Yeah we've managed to subvert the exterminatus a couple times but it's still a thing that has happened multiple times.

[Aucald]

It seemed to me that the Primalists were likely composed primarily of castoffs from the Twilight's Hammer cult, bereft of purpose and calling since the death of the last of the Old Gods - and now, with Raszageth and the other Incarnates, they have a new purpose and leader they can follow, one whose general philosophy is at least similar to that of the Old Gods (since Raszageth and her proto-dragons have something of a loose connection to the Old Gods, to begin with). Generally speaking, their messaging would appeal to any who feel that the Titans' hand in their lives is tantamount to manipulation, and wish to rebel against the influence of extraterrestrial deities mucking around in the affairs of others.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

For now they seem to only want to conquer Azeroth. I think they're decent villains but would need to see more. Raszageth is already way stronger than Deathwing and the Jailor and I'm sure her hungry Primal Incarnate would be even stronger than her. Hope Galakrond gets bought back somehow and empowered by all the raw elemental. Also hoping they are secretly being used by a Old God. My friend got a whack ass theory that Y'shaarj might be behind them as well as the Infinite seeing as their color scheme matches the Sha. He has created the Sha of Time who is secretly controlling the infinite with the important goal of returning to reality. There was a early leak from 4chan that says Y'shaarj is the final boss and it'll take place on the moon along with some Elune involvement. Hope this turns out to be true but only time will tell and time tells no lies!

[Biomega]

There was a early leak from 4chan that says Y'shaarj is the final boss and it'll take place on the moon along with some Elune involvement.

Wouldn't be a real expansion without 4chan "leaking" that it's all about Elune.

They've done that for what, 3 or 4 expansions in a row now?

[Aucald]

The Primalists don't really want to conquer Azeroth, per se; they want to undo the influence the Titans have had on Azeroth's evolution since its early days and reapply the blueprint they think is closer to the world's true course - one controlled by the elementals who once raged across its surface, a primordial world of chaos and strife. The Incarnates, especially, feel that when the Aspects embraced the gifts of the Titans they turned their back on the true evolution of dragonkind, hence their strong opposition to the Aspects and their respective flights.

[Shadowferal]

So...the incarnates believe in speciesism? And "primalists" follow the same?

[Daronokk]

The Primalists don't really want to conquer Azeroth, per se; they want to undo the influence the Titans have had on Azeroth's evolution since its early days and reapply the blueprint they think is closer to the world's true course - one controlled by the elementals who once raged across its surface, a primordial world of chaos and strife. The Incarnates, especially, feel that when the Aspects embraced the gifts of the Titans they turned their back on the true evolution of dragonkind, hence their strong opposition to the Aspects and their respective flights.

How does this make sense when Deathwing and the Primalists were against eachother, even after Deathwing embraced the power of the Old Gods? One side is drawing from the Old Gods while the other is drawing from Elemental powers, which are lackeys of the Old Gods. So basically dragonkind infighting with Old God power infighting.

In the end all of it is linked to the Old Gods, so basically they are fighting themselves. They are undoing their own plans and countering their own progress. None of it makes sense.

This is as stupid as Shadowlands retconning some TFT stuff meaning it was all giant Shadowland forces infighting.

'new' Blizzard doesn't understand or care about their own lore.

[Cheezits]

How does this make sense when Deathwing and the Primalists were against eachother, even after Deathwing embraced the power of the Old Gods? One side is drawing from the Old Gods while the other is drawing from Elemental powers, which are lackeys of the Old Gods. So basically dragonkind infighting with Old God power infighting.

In the end all of it is linked to the Old Gods, so basically they are fighting themselves. They are undoing their own plans and countering their own progress. None of it makes sense.

No they aren't. The Elemental Lords are a chunk of strong elemental powers the Titans put in prisons: we have yet to see any of their forces in Dragonflight. There are more elemental powers than just the ones of the Lords who were allied with the Old Gods.

YOU don't understand the lore.

[Aucald]

How does this make sense when Deathwing and the Primalists were against eachother, even after Deathwing embraced the power of the Old Gods? One side is drawing from the Old Gods while the other is drawing from Elemental powers, which are lackeys of the Old Gods. So basically dragonkind infighting with Old God power infighting.

In the end all of it is linked to the Old Gods, so basically they are fighting themselves. They are undoing their own plans and countering their own progress. None of it makes sense.

This is as stupid as Shadowlands retconning some TFT stuff meaning it was all giant Shadowland forces infighting.

'new' Blizzard doesn't understand or care about their own lore.

It makes sense because the Primal Incarnates were imprisoned well before Neltharion made his turn to embracing the Old Gods, about 10,000+ years before the War of the Ancients when Neltharion was still the relatively good-aligned Aspect of Earth. As the Old Gods are now dead, the Elemental Lords are no longer in their thrall - although it's assumed the Incarnates are still touched by the corruption of the Old Gods given their destructive natures. So to put it succinctly, the Old Gods corrupted Galakrond, and through him, the proto-dragons who would go on to become the Incarnates. The Incarnates were defeated by Neltharion, who tapped into the Old Gods' power to do it when his plan with the dracthyr failed, and that set Neltharion on the road to later being corrupted and becoming Deathwing following the War of the Ancients some ten millennia in the future of that event.

There's nothing inconsistent about the Old Gods shifting gears and focusing on Neltharion instead of their previous plans, as Neltharion proved superior. When Deathwing is later defeated at the Maelstrom, the Old Gods would still have a sealed evil in a can in the form of the Incarnates to use later on, except they were also defeated and killed before this plan could be enacted. Later, the Primalists under Kurog Grimtotem find their way to the Dragon Isles and unlock Raszageth themselves, kicking off the events of the expansion.

[sam86]

just pointing before last patch bullshit jailor forces had a very solid reason for their actions: they want to escape wow version of hell, that wasn't the problem here
the problem was the idea that he was behind everything since wc3, a bullshit plan that makes no sense

[Skytotem]

just pointing before last patch bullshit jailor forces had a very solid reason for their actions: they want to escape wow version of hell, that wasn't the problem here
the problem was the idea that he was behind everything since wc3, a bullshit plan that makes no sense

I don't think he means the Jailor's forces, but the Jailor himself, who alluded to some 'other force' they had to unite against before they died but it never made sense for the other Eternals not to talk about it.

[lordjust]

How does this make sense when Deathwing and the Primalists were against eachother, even after Deathwing embraced the power of the Old Gods? One side is drawing from the Old Gods while the other is drawing from Elemental powers, which are lackeys of the Old Gods. So basically dragonkind infighting with Old God power infighting.

In the end all of it is linked to the Old Gods, so basically they are fighting themselves. They are undoing their own plans and countering their own progress. None of it makes sense.

This is as stupid as Shadowlands retconning some TFT stuff meaning it was all giant Shadowland forces infighting.

'new' Blizzard doesn't understand or care about their own lore.

The primalists are against all outside influence, be it titans, old gods or whatever. There are lots of interaction in the campaign that give insight to their motivation. They believe that all outside influence is bad and siding with outsiders is the same as being enslaved by them. They do say that the aspects are hypocrits because they fought against the old gods (galakrond was infected by yogg'saron's blood) and then acepted the gift of the titans and for the primalists that's the same. Just different devils.

They want to get back to the original, primordial state and let evolution take it's course without any outsiders. Destroy the titan facility so the aspects can't regain their powers because without their powers, the aspects are no match for the incarnates. After that cleanse Azeroth of everything titan, old god or whatever related which includes humans, dwarfs, orcs and so on.

There are also special interactions for people who play tauren or trolls. While other races get told that they aren't supposed to be on Azeroth because they were created by the titans and then cursed by the old gods like dwarfs or came from another world like orcs, tauren and trolls existed on Azeroth before old gods or titans came to Azeroth and get told that they should side with them to take their rightful place on Azeroth.

[Skytotem]

The primalists are against all outside influence, be it titans, old gods or whatever. There are lots of interaction in the campaign that give insight to their motivation. They believe that all outside influence is bad and siding with outsiders is the same as being enslaved by them. They do say that the aspects are hypocrits because they fought against the old gods (galakrond was infected by yogg'saron's blood) and then acepted the gift of the titans and for the primalists that's the same. Just different devils.

They want to get back to the original, primordial state and let evolution take it's course without any outsiders. Destroy the titan facility so the aspects can't regain their powers because without their powers, the aspects are no match for the incarnates. After that cleanse Azeroth of everything titan, old god or whatever related which includes humans, dwarfs, orcs and so on.

There are also special interactions for people who play tauren or trolls. While other races get told that they aren't supposed to be on Azeroth because they were created by the titans and then cursed by the old gods like dwarfs or came from another world like orcs, tauren and trolls existed on Azeroth before old gods or titans came to Azeroth and get told that they should side with them to take their rightful place on Azeroth.

This is the first I've heard of any of this. Aren't there Draenei/Dwarf Primalists too?

EDIT: And didn't Nelfs evolve because of titan blood from the well of eternity?

[Caerule]

The way I see it, the Primalist at the top are basically conservatives. Like many Troll tribes, they seek a return to the good old days, when those with power could do what they want.

And in this case, they have a point. The Titans did come in as an alien force and implemented a new system by force. And the elementals that once held sway over Azeroth, were shackled, and imprisoned in planes, away from their home. You could argue the Titans had noble intentions for Azeroth. Making it stable for life to thrive. Defeating the Old Gods that had bound the elements first. Not destroying the Elements but giving them new home realms. And all that is true. But it's also true that at the end of it, the Elementals lost their home. And those on their side found their world changed. And even those among them joining the Titans and embracing their power.

But it's also clear that these different ideologies didn't just lead to a split, but a terrifying war, among the dragons. A war the Incarnates are plunging us back into. And it's also true that most of us, that have grown up in the relatively stable world the Titans crafted with Life, Order and Society, would not benefit from the Elementals given free reign again.

But there are plenty of people whose lives are not perfect. For whom joining a power that was "unjustly" imprisoned and a quest for freedom is tempting. But there's one thing that's probably the most tempting. In this world of the elements and freedom, in this return to the old ways, those able to embrace the power of this world will be the ones on top. And that power is offered freely right now. Become one with the elements, and be among the elite, when the old ways return. It's a tempting offer, if you can ignore the price that those that refuse or won't fit this new paradigm will have to pay.

[Mehrunes]

Bold of you to assume WoW's writing goes as deep into their villains as to properly establish motivations. As long as there is "the new thing" there will be mortal followers of "the new thing" from the playable races. That's all.

[pinkspring]

I too have wondered this.
The Primal Incarnates were supposed to have been locked away for 20.000 years, and yet they have a cult of loyal followers ready to return the world to a state THAT IS UNINHABITABLE for titan-designed life, to be ruled over by a dragon even the eldest people would never have seen.

And to do this they are willing to give up all their lives to serve this cause. Why?
Sadly I get the feeling even Blizzard themselves didn't give it any thought.

[Jaggler]

I too have wondered this.
The Primal Incarnates were supposed to have been locked away for 20.000 years, and yet they have a cult of loyal followers ready to return the world to a state THAT IS UNINHABITABLE for titan-designed life, to be ruled over by a dragon even the eldest people would never have seen.

And to do this they are willing to give up all their lives to serve this cause. Why?
Sadly I get the feeling even Blizzard themselves didn't give it any thought.

I mean, yeah, their cult just popping up so quickly is a bit weird, but cults that want to bring about the end of life on Azeroth even destroying themselves in the process isn't anything new. Twilight's Hammer or the Cult of the Damned spring to mind.