Give the Horde better leaders.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I miss Vol'jin and Rastakhan.
Vol'jin will be coming back thankfully.

[Raisei]

Pretty sure she was aware of it all along.

In the past I might have agreed, because it fit her character, but now we have the Sylvanas novel as canon. In it, she tells Putress to strike at Arthas when an opening presents itself, no matter who is around him. She did not plan on wiping out all living - at least not yet -, she just didn't care who died in her quest for revenge against the Lich King, that is a difference.
It doesn't make her particularly more virtuos or absolves her of any guilt, but it shows why Putress broke with her, since his goals were far bigger then hers.

Her goals at this stage were survival and revenge. Securing herself against the Scourge and Scarletts was part of the first, because without survival there would be no revenge. Developing the new Blight was mainly part of the second, but it also would work for the first.

Later on, when her revenge fell flat (on account of us killing Arthas) and when she fully embraced the plans of the Jailor her goals shifted, killing everyone (or as many as possible) become part of those plans.

[Alanar]

I miss Vol'jin and Rastakhan.
Vol'jin will be coming back thankfully.

I also miss both, ngl, I would like to see those 2 interact. Rastakahn would have been a great character in the council. I am sure we could have learned a thing or two from him in a different setting.

[Ardenaso]

I honestly don't know why people displike the curretn leadership.

it's not about not being bloodthirsty, it's about being Alliance lapdogs - which Baine literally is and then Calia is a proxy of the Alliance so it's good Lilian still takes the position of the leader

- - - Updated - - -

Annie Lansing and Dalaryn Summermoon should be added to the Desolate Host.
Annie is the only known member of the first version, and the Darkfallen should have representation on the council.

IMO, better if each "sub-faction" has a representative: Lordaeron proper, Gilneas, Alterac (and perhaps Ravenholdt too), Stormgarde, Dark Rangers, San'layn, Argent Crusade, and the Kirin Tor

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Another daily reminder that the Horde needs the stoic bravery and leadership of Rexxar now more than ever.

[Kellorion]

Id like to see the Convocation of Silvermoon made full
it already is in practice

Theron - Overall leader
Lady Liadran - leader of the Blood Elves
Halduron - as leader of the rangers, Ranger General
Rommath - leader magi of the Magisters
Sunreaver - Ambassador to the KT, One of the 6
Valtrois - Ambassador to the Blood Elves
Bloodwatcher - Leader of the Reliquary
Deathweaver - Ebon Blade and Darkfallen Ambassador
Auric Sunchaser - Representative of the High Elves/Void (in the interesting of fostering peace (no voting power/not all meetings))

[username993720]

It's not all of it. Nowhere near close.

Then, you don't know Goblins. You've got 2 racials that deal with money: Best Discounts Everywhere and Summon Hobgoblin.

I asked you a question: do you, or do you not know the difference between "obsession" and "culture"? And for the record: no, the mechagnomes' views of mechanization are not the same as the goblins' greed for gold/money.

How come?
You want to tell me the elves' culture of magic didn't turn into an obssession?

Really? One small handful of orcs vs the entire race?

Small handful of major characters. You still haven't provided examples of Orcs who actually follow their ancestors and honor.

I didn't say there was any sort of resistance. You mistakenly inferred that. I said people weren't happy with Sylvanas' goals.

You need to show that.

Except it wasn't about that, and you would know that if you read that passage of the book.

"Nathanos convinced her it was an opportunity to "gift" this event to her people so that when she wanted to conquer Stormwind, her people would be more admissible to the idea, either because they would hate the living even more or, he theorized, they would see it as an opportunity to bring the loved ones they thought they'd never see again into the Forsaken."

And now you're misrepresenting since I never said they are 'saints' or 'altrusitic'.

Then, slaving your own is not such a stretch. Even Orcs have Peons. And you say they value honor.

Except goblins don't normally enslave their own. Aside from Gallywix attempting to enslave his own cartel one time, can you name any other instance of that happening, with Gallywix or any other goblin?

No. Just their mutated own.
Even the Draenei use their own mutated brethren as slaves. And they are supposed to be the most benevolent race out there. You have too much faith in the races of a fantasy game.

Higher polygon eyes = disney-fying?

You really don't see the difference? You really do need glasses. The bigger eyes... the glow in their eyes... accentuated colors...

Again: I don't need to "pretend to be a food critic" to know a good dish from a bad one. Your picks for leaders of the Horde races were bad choices, plain and simple, and everyone could see that.

Well, that's probably because you're part of the new generation of players.

In the past I might have agreed, because it fit her character, but now we have the Sylvanas novel as canon. In it, she tells Putress to strike at Arthas when an opening presents itself, no matter who is around him. She did not plan on wiping out all living - at least not yet -, she just didn't care who died in her quest for revenge against the Lich King, that is a difference.
It doesn't make her particularly more virtuos or absolves her of any guilt, but it shows why Putress broke with her, since his goals were far bigger then hers.

Her goals at this stage were survival and revenge. Securing herself against the Scourge and Scarletts was part of the first, because without survival there would be no revenge. Developing the new Blight was mainly part of the second, but it also would work for the first.

Later on, when her revenge fell flat (on account of us killing Arthas) and when she fully embraced the plans of the Jailor her goals shifted, killing everyone (or as many as possible) become part of those plans.

The only thing she regrets is killing Horde members. Alliance and Scourge are none of her interest.

[Ielenia]

Then, you don't know Goblins. You've got 2 racials that deal with money: Best Discounts Everywhere and Summon Hobgoblin.

Two racials. Out of SIX! Your example betrays you. "Rocket jump", "rocket barrage" and "living through chemistry" showcase the goblins' ingenuity toward technology and alchemy.

You want to tell me the elves' culture of magic didn't turn into an obssession?

We're not talking about the elves. We're talking about the mechagnomes. And even still, "culture" and "obsession" are not the same thing or even related. And in the case of the elves it was not obsession. It was an addiction that creeped up on them without them realizing as they've grown dependent on the magic they consume.

Small handful of major characters. You still haven't provided examples of Orcs who actually follow their ancestors and honor.

The Frostwolves. The Shadowmoon clan's chief's daughter and half of the clan. The Warsong, who followed the guidance of the elements after the elements were tricked by Garrosh's time shard, etc.

You need to show that.

Which I did when I mentioned the meeting of forsaken and humans in Arathi.

"Nathanos convinced her it was an opportunity to "gift" this event to her people so that when she wanted to conquer Stormwind, her people would be more admissible to the idea, either because they would hate the living even more or, he theorized, they would see it as an opportunity to bring the loved ones they thought they'd never see again into the Forsaken."

"More admissible to the idea". Sounds like they're not exactly keen on Sylvanas' plans. Thanks for backing up my claims for me, I suppose.

Then, slaving your own is not such a stretch.

It is such a stretch. You're presenting a false dichotomy that if someone isn't an Anduin-level saint, then they're a Gallywix-level villain.

Even Orcs have Peons. And you say they value honor.

Peons are not slaves.

Even the Draenei use their own mutated brethren as slaves.

... They certainly frigging don't. I want to see you prove that.

You really don't see the difference? You really do need glasses. The bigger eyes... the glow in their eyes... accentuated colors...

So more realistic eyes = "disney-fying"? Eyes do reflect light. You know that, right?

Well, that's probably because you're part of the new generation of players.

So, the "new generation of players" are the players who have been playing since Vanilla? No, scratch that: in your opinion, the "new generation of players" have been playing since Warcraft 1? Because that's how long I have been playing the Warcraft franchise. Perhaps you should stop making accusations like that. It doesn't reflect well on you.

[Tanaria]

Id like to see the Convocation of Silvermoon made full
it already is in practice

Theron - Overall leader
Lady Liadran - leader of the Blood Elves
Halduron - as leader of the rangers, Ranger General
Rommath - leader magi of the Magisters
Sunreaver - Ambassador to the KT, One of the 6
Valtrois - Ambassador to the Blood Elves
Bloodwatcher - Leader of the Reliquary
Deathweaver - Ebon Blade and Darkfallen Ambassador
Auric Sunchaser - Representative of the High Elves/Void (in the interesting of fostering peace (no voting power/not all meetings))

Nice list, although I'd replace Deathweaver with Dark Ranger Velonara, personally.

[Mace]

Nice list, although I'd replace Deathweaver with Dark Ranger Velonara, personally.

But Velonara isn't part of the Darkfallen/San'layn faction - despite being an undead elf like the other dark rangers. Naturally, someone from the Ebon Blade or San'layn group should be that.

I want them to do a great sorty where a king or Queen returns to lead the blood elves. Like a Kael'thas 2.0 done right.

Sigh, sadly something like that is too difficult for most writing groups, they usually fuck it up, so it will never happen and we'll be stuck with Theron. I mean, he's not bad, but he's not great either - he's perfect for the REgent Lord role though, but not a leader everyone will rally around, fall in love with and lay down their lives for. No charisma - not a flaw, it's just his character and you need people like him, and it's exactly why I want someone else to lead Quel'thalas and unite the high elves.

[username993720]

Two racials. Out of SIX! Your example betrays you. "Rocket jump", "rocket barrage" and "living through chemistry" showcase the goblins' ingenuity toward technology and alchemy.

Is there a character that encompasses them all?

We're not talking about the elves. We're talking about the mechagnomes. And even still, "culture" and "obsession" are not the same thing or even related. And in the case of the elves it was not obsession. It was an addiction that creeped up on them without them realizing as they've grown dependent on the magic they consume.

"after the night elves became obsessed with the well, the pandaren decided to sever their ties and enclose their border in Pandaria."

The Frostwolves. The Shadowmoon clan's chief's daughter and half of the clan. The Warsong, who followed the guidance of the elements after the elements were tricked by Garrosh's time shard, etc.

The Frostwolves i can believe. The entire Shadowmoon clan broke their sacred vow and delved into the Void. The Warsong clan drank demon blood in the main universe.

Which I did when I mentioned the meeting of forsaken and humans in Arathi.

Again, i asked for an example of not seeing eye to eye in the old days.

"More admissible to the idea". Sounds like they're not exactly keen on Sylvanas' plans. Thanks for backing up my claims for me, I suppose.

You completely ignored the rest of it:
"They would hate the living even more" (meaning, they hate the living)
"They would see it as an opportunity to bring their loved ones into the Forsaken" (meaning, they always wanted the rest to become undead as they cannot become human again).

It is such a stretch. You're presenting a false dichotomy that if someone isn't an Anduin-level saint, then they're a Gallywix-level villain.

Gallywix isn't a villain. He's just a Goblin. And in Goblin business, you can't be a soft-hearted individual.

Peons are not slaves.

They might as well be considered as such:
"Peons are often under the watch of foremen,[4][5] overseers,[6][7][8] or overlords,[9] who ensure that they don't get too lazy or complacent, in which case they are punished using blackjacks[10][11] or booterangs."

... They certainly frigging don't. I want to see you prove that.

"A number of Broken draenei serve as laborers in a crystal mine beneath the Exodar."

So more realistic eyes = "disney-fying"? Eyes do reflect light. You know that, right?

That's not the Goblin spirit.

So, the "new generation of players" are the players who have been playing since Vanilla? No, scratch that: in your opinion, the "new generation of players" have been playing since Warcraft 1? Because that's how long I have been playing the Warcraft franchise. Perhaps you should stop making accusations like that. It doesn't reflect well on you.

"New player" mindset is that bad characteristics should not be shown in game and that everything need to be Barney and Friends level of characters.

[Ielenia]

Is there a character that encompasses them all?

Gallywix certainly doesn't, considering he's not an engineer or alchemist, and all his machines are commissioned.

"after the night elves became obsessed with the well, the pandaren decided to sever their ties and enclose their border in Pandaria."

That's irrelevant. That doesn't mean "culture" and "obsession" are the same thing or can be used interchangeably.

The Frostwolves i can believe. The entire Shadowmoon clan broke their sacred vow and delved into the Void. The Warsong clan drank demon blood in the main universe.

They didn't. You would know if you played Alliance during WoD. And so what? The Warsong drank the demon blood in the main universe because they, along all the other clans, were tricked.

You completely ignored the rest of it:
"They would hate the living even more" (meaning, they hate the living)
"They would see it as an opportunity to bring their loved ones into the Forsaken" (meaning, they always wanted the rest to become undead as they cannot become human again).

Oh, you mean Nathanos' opinions? Sylvanas' bootlicker/doormat? Who would do anything "his queen" told him to do, including taking over his own brother's body without a single drop of remorse?

Gallywix isn't a villain. He's just a Goblin. And in Goblin business, you can't be a soft-hearted individual.

He's a villain. Through-and-through.

They might as well be considered as such:

But they're not.

"A number of Broken draenei serve as laborers in a crystal mine beneath the Exodar."

That doesn't mean anything. "Laborer" does not mean "slave". You're really stretching it, and shows you've never gone to the Exodar.

That's not the Goblin spirit.

What is not "the goblin spirit"? Realistic eyes?

"New player" mindset is that bad characteristics should not be shown in game and that everything need to be Barney and Friends level of characters.

Except that is not what is going around here? All the characteristics are the same. They're not changed. Shit, have you even gone to Drustvar? We had a storyline there where a spirit in the form small child was murdering people.

[Tanaria]

But Velonara isn't part of the Darkfallen/San'layn faction - despite being an undead elf like the other dark rangers. Naturally, someone from the Ebon Blade or San'layn group should be that.

I want them to do a great sorty where a king or Queen returns to lead the blood elves. Like a Kael'thas 2.0 done right.

Sigh, sadly something like that is too difficult for most writing groups, they usually fuck it up, so it will never happen and we'll be stuck with Theron. I mean, he's not bad, but he's not great either - he's perfect for the REgent Lord role though, but not a leader everyone will rally around, fall in love with and lay down their lives for. No charisma - not a flaw, it's just his character and you need people like him, and it's exactly why I want someone else to lead Quel'thalas and unite the high elves.

Well she is Darkfallen and now we know that "Darkfallen" doesn't just mean "the San'layn." We all thought that the two were one of the same and now we know that all undead elves are "Darkfallen." This includes Nightborne Death Knights who don't even have the red eye customization.

She is also Horde, as Quel'Thalas is and she also considers herself both Forsaken and Sin'dorei.

Plus, I do think we need to see more Thalassian women involved with Thalassian-Horde lore.
For a long time, I've wanted to see the Thalassian Dark Rangers and the Sin'dorei Farstriders work together and Dark Ranger Velonara fits the role of being the Darkfallen Ambassador to Quel'Thalas, perfectly.

Plus, we also know that Lor'themar mourns Sylvanas' lost on who she was before bald-&-blue.

We should see a renewal between the Sin'dorei and Forsaken and again, Dark Ranger Velonara just fits so well.

Now, Lor'themar Theron never wanted to be the Sin'dorei leader, but the Sin'dorei people looked to him to get them through tough times. He's proven to be both rational and diplomatic, but he can't be underestimated. Leaders don't need fancy powers to be leaders. Lor'themar and Gelbin work because they are two leaders with no external powers beyond their own skills. Lor'themar has stated that he's a Farstrider and not a politician. He leads his people with the insight that only he knows and he always puts their needs above his own, with his knowledge of what is current.

[Mace]

Well she is Darkfallen and now we know that "Darkfallen" doesn't just mean "the San'layn." We all thought that the two were one of the same and now we know that all undead elves are "Darkfallen." This includes Nightborne Death Knights who don't even have the red eye customization.

She is also Horde, as Quel'Thalas is and she also considers herself both Forsaken and Sin'dorei.

Plus, I do think we need to see more Thalassian women involved with Thalassian-Horde lore.

Yeh, Darkfallen is like High elf and night elf, they can be both the name of a race and faction. Blood elves are high elves racially , but not part of hte high elf faction. Because she's not part of the dark fallen, she can't be their ambassador. As you yourself note, she is also horde already.

For a long time, I've wanted to see the Thalassian Dark Rangers and the Sin'dorei Farstriders work together and Dark Ranger Velonara fits the role of being the Darkfallen Ambassador to Quel'Thalas, perfectly.

Dark Ranger ambassador to Quel'thalas perhaps, not Darkfallen ambassador. She could potentially speak for the high elven Dark rangers or darkfallen Darkrangers with the forsaken, not the main darkfallen faction which are San'layn.

Plus, we also know that Lor'themar mourns Sylvanas' lost on who she was before bald-&-blue.

We should see a renewal between the Sin'dorei and Forsaken and again, Dark Ranger Velonara just fits so well.

I would support that.

Now, Lor'themar Theron never wanted to be the Sin'dorei leader, but the Sin'dorei people looked to him to get them through tough times. He's proven to be both rational and diplomatic, but he can't be underestimated. Leaders don't need fancy powers to be leaders. Lor'themar and Gelbin work because they are two leaders with no external powers beyond their own skills. Lor'themar has stated that he's a Farstrider and not a politician. He leads his people with the insight that only he knows and he always puts their needs above his own, with his knowledge of what is current.

I know the history, and I know he is been written as competent - I affirm all that. He's a good governor, a good Regent, he is not a king though. But then, it's not like the blood elves need one.

The high elf faction could use one, but then Alleria is doing nicely. Alleria is a lot more exciting than Lor'themar tbh. For what the blood elves are doing currently, Lor'themar is enough. IF they ever want to seriously advance them more, then perhaps they'll require something more.

But the blood elves seem to be advancing quite well anyway, so why need a king.


It's a similar situation with the night elves, as they expand, the priesthood won't be suited to leading them, they'd need a full civil leadership, even a Monarch, I suspect that the priesthood were the one that brought up the matter of civil lleadership with thier people in the pre-sundering era as they grew - it would have become more a necessary interruption to their higher duties of ministering to the goddess, and let others take the mantle while they devote themselves to prayer and the goddess.

Post-sundering, they weren't growing or building, and in war mode, so it was sufficient for the priesthood to lead again seeing that the empire was gone and their was no ruler, the ruling class and entire system it operated on un-necessary for the new role as guardians of the Well , the magic and the world. This would change again after WC3, growing again, Frandal correctly spots, Tyrande has no idea how to lead a people as a civilization - because she doesn't, she lead in a time of war and vigil.

But since then, the War of Thorns has happened, and now they aren't many - unless Elune restores the Farondis and a whole bunch of repentant naga and satyr and priestess spirits in the Cathedral = maybe NElf worgen and some of the maw souls returned - that would put them at roughly a large enough population to require civil leadership - and in such a scenario I would crown Prince Farondis king

[Tanaria]

Yeh, Darkfallen is like High elf and night elf, they can be both the name of a race and faction. Blood elves are high elves racially , but not part of hte high elf faction. Because she's not part of the dark fallen, she can't be their ambassador. As you yourself note, she is also horde already.


Dark Ranger ambassador to Quel'thalas perhaps, not Darkfallen ambassador. She could potentially speak for the high elven Dark rangers or darkfallen Darkrangers with the forsaken, not the main darkfallen faction which are San'layn.

I would support that.

But she is Darkfallen. She's the Darkfallen voice on the Desolate Council.

She tells you at the end of the Lordaeron questline, "When we Darkfallen Elves were raised..."
Blizzard have confirmed that Dark Rangers/Undead Elves/Darkfallen/San'layn, are all the same.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Darkfallen

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The high elf faction could use one, but then Alleria is doing nicely. Alleria is a lot more exciting than Lor'themar tbh. For what the blood elves are doing currently, Lor'themar is enough. IF they ever want to seriously advance them more, then perhaps they'll require something more.

She's more exciting because she leads a band of renegades.

Lor'themar is leading Quel'Thalas and is currently in an very idyllic peace.

By comparison, Alleria's lore doesn't advance without Turaylon.
Lor'themar's lore doesn't need to be attached to anyone to get lore advancements.
The same issue arises for the general High Elves. Don't ever get lore development in a big way, unless it is involved the Blood Elves. The last time we saw a big high elf presence, it was with blood elves and night elves, with the high elves mainly arguing with the blood elves.

What Blizzard are doing with Lor'themar and Thalyssra is the correct approach to the whole "marriage" thing because neither is dependent on the other, to get lore. Thalyssra is confirmed to be involved with the introduction of the Dragonflight lore, whereas Lor'themar is not.

[Mace]

But she is Darkfallen. She's the Darkfallen voice on the Desolate Council.

She tells you at the end of the Lordaeron questline, "When we Darkfallen Elves were raised..."
Blizzard have confirmed that Dark Rangers/Undead Elves/Darkfallen/San'layn, are all the same.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Darkfallen

Am I phrasing things wrongly? Or speaking another language? I said she is darkfallen racially, not part of the Darkfallen faction. This means that yes she is darkfallen (racially. its her race), but can't be an ambassador for the darkfallen as a racial group or faction group becasue she isn't part of that faction and is only repreenting the Dark Rangers amongst the forsaken. ( who while darkfallen, are not the main Darkfallen group -so how can she be (the) Darkfallen ambassador. She can be a darkfallen ambassador of the Dark Rangers (which is saying she is a Dark Ranger ambassador that is a darkfallen elf)

I agree with her being Dark Ranger AMbassador.

Lor'themar is leading Quel'Thalas and is currently in an very idyllic peace.

By comparison, Alleria's lore doesn't advance without Turaylon.

What do you mean by that? Alleria has huge swathes of lore that doesn't need Turalyon - Turalyon so far is not involved with her efforts to bring the blood elves back into the alliance, nor with any of her void elf leadership, nor training or advancemnets - her entire void elf aspect and high elf aspect is independent of him.

In fact the only lore she she shares with him is their family story and love. Her husband and her son who are both dear to him.

Lor'themar's lore doesn't need to be attached to anyone to get lore advancements.

Making him more boring, however he seems to be attached to Thalyssra now.

Being a couple doens't mean your lore is attached to someone else, not when they give you independent lore. Malfurion is not attached to Tyrande though theya re togehter, nor is Alleria attached to TUralyon unable to have a sotry independent of him.

If that was the case why is she with Anduin confronnting Sylvnaas, and where is Turalyon in the Sylvanans scenes or the void story with locus Walker - . Tyrande has the entire night warriror story play out without Malfurion. I'm no sure I understand you.

The same issue arises for the general High Elves. Don't ever get lore development in a big way, unless it is involved the Blood Elves. The last time we saw a big high elf presence, it was with blood elves and night elves, with the high elves mainly arguing with the blood elves.

That's because blood elves are high elves, and void elves are part of the same racial umbrella group - they are connected, blizzard may tie them closer togehter always involving each other, or pull them parat.

don't see what the problem is, races can have more than one thing going for them. They don't just have to be about this one thing only. I remember trying to make that point about night elves too not just being about forests, and there was Elune and the arcane too - an entire culture and civilization , many facets tot he race. It's thes ame with high elves, void elves, humans, and many races.


But for some reason some fans keep trying to put them into one box .

What Blizzard are doing with Lor'themar and Thalyssra is the correct approach to the whole "marriage" thing because neither is dependent on the other, to get lore. Thalyssra is confirmed to be involved with the introduction of the Dragonflight lore, whereas Lor'themar is not.

Well, most of Thalyssra has been without Lor'themar, so it's actually interesting and welcome to have them team up to see that dynamic.

Wow couples are not often seen together much in the quests, although in the novels we sometimes get a lot more - like we did Rhonin and Vereesa.

[Tanaria]

Am I phrasing things wrongly? Or speaking another language? I said she is darkfallen racially, not part of the Darkfallen faction. This means that yes she is darkfallen (racially. its her race), but can't be an ambassador for the darkfallen as a racial group or faction group becasue she isn't part of that faction and is only repreenting the Dark Rangers amongst the forsaken. ( who while darkfallen, are not the main Darkfallen group -so how can she be (the) Darkfallen ambassador. She can be a darkfallen ambassador of the Dark Rangers (which is saying she is a Dark Ranger ambassador that is a darkfallen elf)

I agree with her being Dark Ranger AMbassador.

You said that the San'layn are the main group of Darkfallen, which is no longer valid since all undead elves are "Darkfallen."
San'layn have also recently attacked Quel'Thalas so regardless of whether the San'layn are the main group of undead elves or not - they don't like nor care about the Sin'dorei.

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What do you mean by that? Alleria has huge swathes of lore that doesn't need Turalyon - Turalyon so far is not involved with her efforts to bring the blood elves back into the alliance, nor with any of her void elf leadership, nor training or advancemnets - her entire void elf aspect and high elf aspect is independent of him.

In fact the only lore she she shares with him is their family story and love. Her husband and her son who are both dear to him.

Because I don't care for her, I've only ever really seen her with Turaylon/Humans - so if you have another point in the lore where she's independent then let me know.

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That's because blood elves are high elves, and void elves are part of the same racial umbrella group - they are connected, blizzard may tie them closer togehter always involving each other, or pull them parat.

don't see what the problem is, races can have more than one thing going for them. They don't just have to be about this one thing only. I remember trying to make that point about night elves too not just being about forests, and there was Elune and the arcane too - an entire culture and civilization , many facets tot he race. It's thes ame with high elves, void elves, humans, and many races.


But for some reason some fans keep trying to put them into one box .

I think that's more you, than me to be perfectly honest. There's more to races than just the one they look similar to/distantly related to as well. So, there's more to Nightborne than Night Elves and Blood Elves. There's more to Mag'har than just Orcs and Lightforged.

I personally don't think Blizzard cares deeply about connecting races up together, cross faction.

[Syegfryed]

Give wow better writers, then you end up with better leaders, for both factions.

Honestly, all horde and alliance leadership shenanigans died in mop, cataclysm was the best time to be alive for things related to factions, now, is just awful, you look at the leaders and you don't understand why and how they are there, most of then are basically done arbitrary and biased, the writers think X is good? then leader he shall be.

I mean, look of how they are slowly building up Calia to be the actual leader of the forsaken, they tried in BfA, failed because community backlash, and are doing in small doses, so the poison is palatable and end up fatal.

After the fiasco and the shitshow it was after WoD with they killing character willy nily without any plan for replacements or any long plan overall, you just don't care anymore, pretend they don't exist and just do the quests you are told to do in the new zone and try to have fun with it by shutting down your brain.

[Mace]

You said that the San'layn are the main group of Darkfallen, which is no longer valid since all undead elves are "Darkfallen."
San'layn have also recently attacked Quel'Thalas so regardless of whether the San'layn are the main group of undead elves or not - they don't like nor care about the Sin'dorei.

Why is that no longer valid? All undead elves have always been darkfallen - this isn't new.


The dark rangers are a very small number of undead elves that are all rangers, following sylvanas, the banshees Arthas raised with ehr when he defeated her as Ranger general on the battle front - these were only a handful.

The vast majority of the risen elves are not with the forsaken, they are led by the San'layn and a few are in the Ebon blade.

So unless many of them join the forsaken, how can a dark ranger be the Ambassador for the dark fallen? Surelyshe would only be the Ambassador for the DArk Rangers?

Because I don't care for her, I've only ever really seen her with Turaylon/Humans - so if you have another point in the lore where she's independent then let me know.

I just did - all her dealings with the void elves, her void calling and experience, her dealing with the high elves and blood elven Thalassian groups which is the lion share of her story are all independent of Turalyon. The void elf activities in the Lordaeron siege, the BFA encounters, parts involving Sylvanas - those are all independent of Turalyon and aren't tied to him.

HE is her husband and part of her life, but they don't work kas a unit - they have very different and contrasting callings - one is to the light the other to the void, one is with humans the other with elves... I mean.. I did say.

I think that's more you, than me to be perfectly honest. There's more to races than just the one they look similar to/distantly related to as well. So, there's more to Nightborne than Night Elves and Blood Elves. There's more to Mag'har than just Orcs and Lightforged.

I personally don't think Blizzard cares deeply about connecting races up together, cross faction.

Yes, but the context.. Nightborne are a group of night elven peoples with their own situation and circumstances that we can follow, just like Highmountain are a group of Tauren peoples independent of the politics of the Kalimdor Tauren. SO yes in that respect they are different from their allies and kin.

but that is kinda obvious. They are not independent of kaldorei themes and elements, because they are the civilization Highborne side of the kaldorei - it's part of who they are.. referencing night elves whether in past or present isn't necessarily making it about the Darnassians. Naturally they will explore kaldorei things like Elune and druidism - but from their own perspective as Highborne of the kaldorei civilization, rather than the Darnassian perspective as those who lived through a long vigil.

It's the same race from a different angle and situation - after all isn't this what every allied race essentially is?

[Tanaria]

Why is that no longer valid? All undead elves have always been darkfallen - this isn't new.


The dark rangers are a very small number of undead elves that are all rangers, following sylvanas, the banshees Arthas raised with ehr when he defeated her as Ranger general on the battle front - these were only a handful.

The vast majority of the risen elves are not with the forsaken, they are led by the San'layn and a few are in the Ebon blade.

So unless many of them join the forsaken, how can a dark ranger be the Ambassador for the dark fallen? Surelyshe would only be the Ambassador for the DArk Rangers?

But the only ones that we care about are those who have Thalassian interests.
As of Shadowlands - the San'layn do not care for Thalassian interests whereas the Darkfallen of the Horde, do.

This is all we are saying.

Plus, Velonara makes far more sense than Koltira who was imprisoned by the Horde/Forsaken. We don't know if the former High Elf Warrior would be welcomed back into Thalassian society; however I reckon he would serve as a great Ebon Blade Ambassador.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, but the context.. Nightborne are a group of night elven peoples with their own situation and circumstances that we can follow, just like Highmountain are a group of Tauren peoples independent of the politics of the Kalimdor Tauren. SO yes in that respect they are different from their allies and kin.

but that is kinda obvious. They are not independent of kaldorei themes and elements, because they are the civilization Highborne side of the kaldorei - it's part of who they are.. referencing night elves whether in past or present isn't necessarily making it about the Darnassians. Naturally they will explore kaldorei things like Elune and druidism - but from their own perspective as Highborne of the kaldorei civilization, rather than the Darnassian perspective as those who lived through a long vigil.

It's the same race from a different angle and situation - after all isn't this what every allied race essentially is?

We'll have to see about this, as both Nightborne and Highmountain have spent at least 10,000 years apart from their core race counterparts.

I'm not sure if I truly would like Nightborne to be copying Night Elf Druidism to be honest.
In TBC, the Sunfury Blood Elves showed a very "Highborne" way of weaving natural magics - nature was to do THEIR bidding, through arcane based methods. Personally, I think Blood Elves and Nightborne could adapt this method of arcane and druidism, because it shows - being of Highborne descent, that powers are their for them to control - not for those powers to control them.