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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    tbh serpent sting was a baseline ability for all speccs since vanilla, sure it isnt a big hitting ability but its always been a thing for hunters in general.
    That just makes it feel like it's inclusion is more an obligation rather than a natural addition to the rotation.
    The developers should be able to say that some abilities are simply not a good fit for the spec. Even if they were once a part of the spec. Even more so when you consider that vanilla didn't even have specs.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That just makes it feel like it's inclusion is more an obligation rather than a natural addition to the rotation.
    The developers should be able to say that some abilities are simply not a good fit for the spec. Even if they were once a part of the spec. Even more so when you consider that vanilla didn't even have specs.
    how do you mean its a obligation? sure i can agree that some abilities isnt fitting for speccs, but on the other hand specc design (like in legion) was a massive mistake and what they are doing now is building a core foundation and having speccs be specialations of that core specc. Vanilla had speccs but they mostly iterated on the core design of the class. But there is no garantuee you are obliged to pick SS as MM, it all comes down what the meta builds become of it.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That just makes it feel like it's inclusion is more an obligation rather than a natural addition to the rotation.
    The developers should be able to say that some abilities are simply not a good fit for the spec. Even if they were once a part of the spec. Even more so when you consider that vanilla didn't even have specs.
    I think their intent with the two trees is that players (within the dev-determined constraints) "design" their own spec, and it's up to each individual what is "fitting" and what isn't--very much in the vein of that Vanilla design aesthetic you reference. Obviously, they're not going all the way back to that, there are still more defined structures now, but some of that feel.

    And that makes sense, since a lot of what is "fitting" is quite subjective. You obviously feel Serpent Sting is the least-fitting ability MM has access to (since that's the one you consistently lament), whereas I think Serpent Sting fits a lot better than Arcane Shot, which seems completely random. A mostly-physical damage marksman/sniper poisoning their shots seems a lot more reasonable than a mostly-physical damage marksman/sniper firing a bunch of arcane bolts.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  4. #124
    Looking over these trees again, I have been getting more and more annoyed that abilities we have had since Vanilla are now not require talent points to obtain them again. Not only are they talent points now, but they're forced talent points (e.g. Tar Trap for Improved Exhilaration, Scare Beast/Improved Traps for Beast Master, etc.)

    Stuff like Explosive Shot and such are fine since they were talent points to begin with, albeit ES was Survival's 41pt talent at the time and Chimera Shot was MM's. But anything with the base abilities we've had since Vanilla should not be talents. Talents should enhance or replace them. Like give us Ice Trap, Frost Trap (Tar Trap's predecessor), Conc Shot, Tranquil Shot, etc. Then make Tar Trap a replacement for Frost Trap that has like a 50% bigger radius.

    Right now it seems like a lot was taken away and now we have to buy back abilities we've always had. Does not sit well with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardhuntr View Post
    This, while wild spirits had it's downsides, it was probably half our DPS, we'll need a real buff to balance not having it
    I'm going to miss it too. Looks like the Venthyr one got baked into the BM Tree though as In for the Kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    I think their intent with the two trees is that players (within the dev-determined constraints) "design" their own spec, and it's up to each individual what is "fitting" and what isn't--very much in the vein of that Vanilla design aesthetic you reference. Obviously, they're not going all the way back to that, there are still more defined structures now, but some of that feel.
    There is no Vanilla feel to these trees. They're infinitely more restricted than the Vanilla trees were with all the mandatory connections versus those only linked to gaining an ability. They also didn't solve the problem with Trees that we ran into with Wrath so they will have to redesign them again every single expansion.
    Last edited by Eosia; 2022-07-19 at 05:05 PM.

  5. #125
    Most players will get used to the trees. It's not so restrictive and point-starved that you can't fill out your bars with all the old abilities you're used to. In the cases you can't, you'll have new gadgets to fill in the void. There are flaws and wrinkles to address, but the overall concept is fine. No worse than the tired and staid 7x3 grid we've run since MoP. Agreeing with Shanthi, we're moving to an era where you build your class with your tree, not have it all handed (dictated) to you.

    While I'm here and mentioning wrinkles, though- man, Hunter tree looks like a bare aspen compared to the Shaman baobab. Those trees thick. I'm jealous, Shaman players seem really happy with their options. Marks still feels bare, boring, and railroaded. No imagination; they hardly acknowledge let alone plan to address the firestorm they set off six years ago with RSV->MSV.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    There is no Vanilla feel to these trees.
    I'm happy to accept that as your opinion. To me, they tried to give it a bit more of that Vanilla feel where you can build out your spec with the abilities you want--it's obviously more restrictive than Vanilla, considering that they still retained specs. It's also much more free-form than at any point since Vanilla. In my opinion, anyway.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    im not gonna rest for the fact that blizzard been ignoring feedback about survival for 6 years now, but then again, they are hellbent keeping the meme specc alive so not much i can do i guess

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    MM have been good in terms of dmg but been feeling very clunky (atleast in my opinion). well wild spirits and resonant arrow would have gone away anyway like any other borrowed power, allthought im surprised to see they kept the necrolord chakram. but beta testing will show how things perform i believe
    Hey you know u can play marks on BM for ranged right you don't have to play survival? Infact the very core of survival from before explosive and serpent sting are both in the core hunter tree meaning you can go marks pick up wailing get serpent sting get explosive and there ya go. You dont have to keep complaining for zero reason what so ever.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    Hey you know u can play marks on BM for ranged right you don't have to play survival? Infact the very core of survival from before explosive and serpent sting are both in the core hunter tree meaning you can go marks pick up wailing get serpent sting get explosive and there ya go. You dont have to keep complaining for zero reason what so ever.
    or you can understand that doing that setup isnt anywhere near close to what ranged surv would be like, nor if you go BM with same setup. If i had 0 reasons to complain i wouldnt complain. the problem with its rework in legion is that it litterly destroyed a specc thats been its own fantasy since wotlk. Also thanks to that they screwed MM in the process since they tried to shove RSV play into the MM tree, its first in SL MM is starting to get back a bit to what it used to be pre legion.

    saying "oh just pick x y z talent and boom you got RSV" isnt a argument, its ignoring the issue that survival have had since legion. I mean hell, survival doesnt even have a direction anymore, just look at the DF talents for survival, blizzard have no clue what to do with the specc. But in the end i have been suggesting to bring a talent so you can pick if you want to be ranged or meele in the survival tree (and no, im not going to play MM/BM with sub par talents to get a bootleg surv gameplay back).

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    or you can understand that doing that setup isnt anywhere near close to what ranged surv would be like, nor if you go BM with same setup. If i had 0 reasons to complain i wouldnt complain. the problem with its rework in legion is that it litterly destroyed a specc thats been its own fantasy since wotlk. Also thanks to that they screwed MM in the process since they tried to shove RSV play into the MM tree, its first in SL MM is starting to get back a bit to what it used to be pre legion.

    saying "oh just pick x y z talent and boom you got RSV" isnt a argument, its ignoring the issue that survival have had since legion. I mean hell, survival doesnt even have a direction anymore, just look at the DF talents for survival, blizzard have no clue what to do with the specc. But in the end i have been suggesting to bring a talent so you can pick if you want to be ranged or meele in the survival tree (and no, im not going to play MM/BM with sub par talents to get a bootleg surv gameplay back).
    survival does have a directioin...melee with a pet, survival pre legion was literally serpent sting, explosive shot and black arrow. With immolation trap. Thats literally the build I just gave you. lol

  10. #130
    Explosive Shot is not the same ability, isn't affected by Lock and Load, no trap interactions, there is no Black Arrow, Wailing Shot is not Black Arrow, no Cobra Shot, no rolling Serpent Sting, no Serpent Spread, Explosive Trap is not the same ability. These are only the differences from a time when specs shared talents, and does not even factor in the lost opportunity of what RSV could have gained had it been continued into Legion and beyond.
    The "core" of pre-Explosive Survival was the same as BM and MM, way back in Burning Crusade when every hunter just spammed Steady Shot macro endlessly. Your proposal does not even create a bootleg version of RSV, merely a facetious label slapped on a fundamentally different spec.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    survival does have a directioin...melee with a pet, survival pre legion was literally serpent sting, explosive shot and black arrow. With immolation trap. Thats literally the build I just gave you. lol
    it really doesnt, funnily enought it had a direction in legion but since BFA its just been a mess. the build you give me isnt the same, like i said, its a bootleg attempt at what was once a functioning ranged specc. Even if i would run that build it would be sup bar at best. meele with a pet isnt really cutting it since its a copycat of BM at this point, they made it incredibly nieche in legion and after that they just gave up on it due they have no clue what they are doing with the specc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Explosive Shot is not the same ability, isn't affected by Lock and Load, no trap interactions, there is no Black Arrow, Wailing Shot is not Black Arrow, no Cobra Shot, no rolling Serpent Sting, no Serpent Spread, Explosive Trap is not the same ability. These are only the differences from a time when specs shared talents, and does not even factor in the lost opportunity of what RSV could have gained had it been continued into Legion and beyond.
    The "core" of pre-Explosive Survival was the same as BM and MM, way back in Burning Crusade when every hunter just spammed Steady Shot macro endlessly. Your proposal does not even create a bootleg version of RSV, merely a facetious label slapped on a fundamentally different spec.
    can only agree

  12. #132
    Pandaren Monk cocomen2's Avatar
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    Hunter become very funky.

    1) Beast Mastery spec - all things about pet and KIll command, in his heart he is Sylvanas simp so top tier has Wailing Arrow...rare ShADoW Ability.

    2) Marksman spec - true tard challenge to pick Kill command + Lone wolf, but basically very boring, atleast should be given ability to pluck enemy eyes with arrowhead in melee.

    3) Beast Mastery spec 2 (but melee, aka Surv to troll Rexxar fans) - almost all things tied to pet and its Kill command, still same Sylvanas simp, while other classes getting interrupt at 3-5 point in tree, Hunter still think that Wailing Arrow most powerful shit in universe.



    At this point i feel like someone was hired to sabotage Hunter+Shaman talent tree development, someone very angry and edgy. /s
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2022-07-21 at 10:48 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Hunter become very funky.

    1) Beast Mastery spec - all things about pet and KIll command, in his heart he is Sylvanas simp so top tier has Wailing Arrow...rare ShADoW Ability.

    2) Marksman spec - true tard challenge to pick Kill command + Lone wolf, but basically very boring, atleast should be given ability to pluck enemy eyes with arrowhead in melee.

    3) Beast Mastery spec 2 (but melee, aka Surv to troll Rexxar fans) - almost all things tied to pet and its Kill command, still same Sylvanas simp, while other classes getting interrupt at 3-5 point in tree, Hunter still think that Wailing Arrow most powerful shit in universe.
    The more beast synergy Survival gets, the more obvious it becomes that it was never Survival that should have become a melee spec, it should have been Beast Master. It wouldnt have even been that big a change seeing as pre-Legion BM was basically all about Kill Command, as opposed to Survival which had definite ranged only abilities.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #134
    The current MM tree (with the Multishot adds explosive shots every 45s) looks amazing.
    I ended up doing a setup without any of the tree's "ultimates" (or whatever you can call the last point in a line) and that looked to be quite solid and I couldn't decide what to take or what to give up.

    That's how it should be imho.
    It's kinda fun when things are connected to other talents and legendary effects.

    "Oh I can get this much rapidfire dmg% and crit% increase? Oh, but now I can't reach the ultimate AoE ability anymore... and should I even care about Kill Shot or should I use the ~4 points to double down on something."

    etc.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-07-28 at 09:04 AM.

  15. #135
    In my calculations with the current MM tree... this is the most "kill-shot" build I can imagine for PVP (focused on 1 target). This build kills the target before it finds out if I'm MM or BM...



    LINK:
    https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-...GKkYBCEBYChQBA
    Last edited by Fantazma; 2022-07-28 at 07:03 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    In my calculations with the current MM tree... this is the most "kill-shot" build I can imagine for PVP (focused on 1 target). This build kills the target before it finds out if I'm MM or BM...



    LINK:
    https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-...GKkYBCEBYChQBA
    It looks fun. I'd try to find a slot for Double Tap though.

    Also, it's a shame Lone Wolf is a dead talent now that MM has access to Intimidation. It will never be worth taking for PvP.

  17. #137
    There is absolutely no reason to take serpent sting either with that build
    You have a 100% chance to apply it on AiS.

    And I doubt KS will deal enough damage as MM to do anything.
    It still costs GCDs, you know? And you put lots of points into Arcane shot
    How will you use stampede?

    And will you even be able to generate focus other than rapidfire? I mean... maybe that's not much of a thing in PvP but at least some?
    Looks pretty invested ineffective just for a meme (trying to hide what spec you play), is it really worth it?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-07-30 at 09:12 AM.

  18. #138
    Warchief shade3891's Avatar
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    I wonder if 50% chance would be enough on Aimed Shot to apply SS in the rotation to keep it running on the target.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by shade3891 View Post
    I wonder if 50% chance would be enough on Aimed Shot to apply SS in the rotation to keep it running on the target.
    Almost definitely not in regular combat. During the burst window in Trueshot probably, but even then you would likely waste a few procs or lose out depending on your luck. 50% is quite a bit of variance when it comes to Aimed Shot.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #140
    I really dont like the changes and moves they've made...

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