Has WoW become more " pay to win"?

[hulkgor]

No. It has not.

[Shadowferal]

More like "pay for the best stuff."

[Djuntas]

As somebody who buy boosts, all the boosts, hell yes. But I also make all my gold via AH play. I massed a total 75-100 million raw gold since WOD by now. So for me its a grey area. But Im sure there are tons who buy boosts with tokens they buy for money.

You can buy the the best gear, buy some of the hardest mounts, some of the more annoying achives...etc. All for gold.

Like since this year I bought...lets see. Season mythic +15, huolon mount, 3x glory metas SL raids, and was it something else as well...So yeah ^^ Next season im prolly gonna buy another season boost for the mount and mythic sylvanas mount.

But hey if they ruin how I can make gold with AH play Id stop it right away. Its also costly. But man SL is gold inflation x 100. I made 11 million in 9.2 first 40 days. Its awful how the economy has been since WOD. People who made 100-250 million gold in SL...

[Bladesyphon]

Great...another thread where people don't understand what pay to win is

Diablo Immortal is pay to win...World of Warcraft isn't pay to in

I was actually going to make a comment about this. While I enjoy Diablo Immortal as a scumbag casual gamer who only plays like, ten minutes a night if that, there's no denying the game is heavily pay to win when it comes to PvP, and progressing at anything beyond a snail's pace. Though I think in Diablo Immortal's case, since it is a gatcha game at it's core, it's more of a "Pay for a CHANCE to win" then outright paying to win. The game might actually be somewhat more playable if you did have the ability to just outright drop ten dollars and get a five star Gem.

So you would think that, now that people have seen Diablo Immortal, and what a truly pay to win game looks like, you'd stop seeing people trying to compare buying runs with ingame gold in WoW as "pay to win" because of the Token...and yet here we are.

[Relapses]

So you would think that, now that people have seen Diablo Immortal, and what a truly pay to win game looks like, you'd stop seeing people trying to compare buying runs with ingame gold in WoW as "pay to win" because of the Token...and yet here we are.

The token represents low hanging fruit for criticism of WoW. People like to blame it for all of the "bad choices" Blizzard has made since it came out as a catch-all for their general disappointment with the direction the game has taken. The real problem is that most of the people blaming the token don't spend any time actually thinking about what the token does, how it impacts the game economy and why it's necessary. They just think it's bad and that somehow removing it would make the game better.

[munkeyinorbit]

By the definition some People use to describe Pay2Win, WoW has always been Pay2Win. Literally every MMO in History has been by that Logic.

That logic is flawed as the act of subscribing is not P2W. By using this flawed logic, any game ever made that wasn't freeware is P2W which essentially means there is no such thing as P2W.

- - - Updated - - -

On the flip side I really want to play classic wow but it feels even more pay to win. Gold buying is extremely rampant. Gdkp runs are the norm for pugs and all it does is xfer bought gold around. The average player is 100x richer than they ever were back then. Unless you're in a guild, or a geared player getting a cut of the gdkp, you basically have to buy gold to get any sort of gear. As a side effect of this, all the good players are in these runs getting paid, which lowers the average quality of the player in the soft reserve/normal runs

You are confusing cheating with P2W. In the west Classic is not P2W. If you are buying gold then you are cheating.

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Because you can get everything the same WITHOUT using RL currency.

If you could get some extra powerful and rare item ONLY with real life curremcy (and not by playing the actual game)- then that would be pay to win.

Get the difference now?

WRONG.

If you can use RMT to buy power then it is P2W. Your statement essentially says that a game like CandyCrush is not P2W as you can reach the last level without paying a cent.

[munkeyinorbit]

Subscription = pay to access the world where the game takes place. To play the game one needs gear. If one is content playing at the level of their achievable gear threshold then the game is not p2w. If the player can't afford the time or can't afford the effort required or lack the means to complete content with friends/guild etc and said player buys a service for gold that they aquired through paying real money to a corporate entity, then that segment of the game, for that person and those involved is indeed p2w.

Now if the player who bought the service and aquired the gear, uses that purchased power to kill other players or go on a ganking spree or to otherwise gain advantages in the game that they wouldn't have otherwise, thats also what p2w is.

Arguing semantics is not needed though. The moment blizzard stagnated the pool of farmable gold and became the sole source of gold selling the game became p2w.

I don't buy into their claim that "we only sell gold that players sold to us" either. They are literally printing money. So yes its as p2w as it gets.

You think you're arguing semantics but it's not possible when you are wrong. Playing the game and progressing and getting gear through normal means without getting your credit card is not pay to win. It's called playing the game. The subscription is not a P2W mechanic. If it is then putting a quarter into an arcade machine in 80s to play pacman is P2W. We all know it isn't and pushing your narrative is plain dishonesty.

[Relapses]

Arguing semantics is not needed though. The moment blizzard stagnated the pool of farmable gold and became the sole source of gold selling the game became p2w.

I don't buy into their claim that "we only sell gold that players sold to us" either. They are literally printing money. So yes its as p2w as it gets.

You do realize that the token doesn't generate any gold, right? It simply redistributes the existing gold from within the economy.

Additionally, the token didn't eliminate gold selling. It still exists (and it's way cheaper than the token), it's just less visible. Most gold selling happens in the form of people RMTing a boost these days. The boosters convert the cash the boostee pays into gold.

[Hyeonh]

2 words. WoW tokens.
Ever since that was introduced people can literally buy the best gear or level quickly with boosting and getting carried by a third party. It ain't the pay 2 win that comes to mind with the assumption but it definitely gets you places. I will not accept any argument that says it isn't people are just simply denial about it.

[Goat7]

Yes it is very simply.

Buy Token with real money, convert token to gold, use gold to get gear or boosts = pay 2 win.

We will have to wait and see but judging from the new profession update info that was released, its looking like its going to be even MORE pay 2 win.

DF = Buy token, convert to gold, buy mats, get 5 star profession gear best in game.

[Elbob]

Yes it is very simply.

Buy Token with real money, convert token to gold, use gold to get gear or boosts = pay 2 win.

We will have to wait and see but judging from the new profession update info that was released, its looking like its going to be even MORE pay 2 win.

DF = Buy token, convert to gold, buy mats, get 5 star profession gear best in game.

The token does not generate any equippable items or currency in game. Anything you are able to get via the token is through other players in game and this matters. If you have gold the token can't buy you power which would make the game only p2w for some people and especially less useful for people as you climb up. My main could buy an infinite number of tokens today and not gain any strength from them, also I already have the gold to buy any boes I may want at the beginning of a new tier so how does buying a token help me or empower me at all? If I can't spend money to be stronger how can I call the game p2w? I also already participate in a mythic raid so buying earlier progression doesn't work either.

So am I allowed to say the game isn't p2w? Or do you need to qualify your claim and say wow is p2w only for some people, who don't have the gold or a dedicated raid group. Because any actual power gained in game is at the behest of other players in game and is limited to what they can provide.

[TomBrokovski]

PvP certainly felt like it, but I'm not sure if that has changed since I quit during Sanctum of Domination patch. But it was a brutal slog and it was a regular occurrence that you'd fight someone fully decked out sitting in a rating bracket they had no business being in (1.6k MMR games with 3.1k CR players). The PvP gearing system encouraged you to rent a gladiator to help you spank undergeared people so you could climb yourself, otherwise the power difference was generally too great to bridge with just skill.

[OMGTwitchTV]

You can't P2W in an MMO. Even if you had 50 billion gold in the game, bought all the gear, paid for carries to the top, and ranked highest on some leaderboards, do you have:

- Every Mount in the game ?
- completed every quest, dungeon, raid, arena, battle ground etc ?
- Unlocked every possible achievement with that gold/cash ?
- own the largest and most successful guild in the game ?
- already doing future content ahead of everyone else ?
- have every possible piece of gear in game for your class to transmog with ?
- gotten every legendary possible from every expac ?
- get some instant access to log in that no one else has ?
- can 1 shot everything in the game ?
- been handed every class for every race already to level 60 and they came with BiS gear ?
- were able to pay cash today and open every premium collector's edition ?
- own every TCG item available ?

If you can honestly say that any player on the planet can say YES to all of these things... and more... then yes, pay to win is actually a thing in an MMO. The only reasons to complain about any of this:

- Barely having enough money to afford your sub
- Tired of seeing casual players in better gear
- Getting tired of the game and need a break

[Goat7]

The token does not generate any equippable items or currency in game. Anything you are able to get via the token is through other players in game and this matters. If you have gold the token can't buy you power which would make the game only p2w for some people and especially less useful for people as you climb up. My main could buy an infinite number of tokens today and not gain any strength from them, also I already have the gold to buy any boes I may want at the beginning of a new tier so how does buying a token help me or empower me at all? If I can't spend money to be stronger how can I call the game p2w? I also already participate in a mythic raid so buying earlier progression doesn't work either.

So am I allowed to say the game isn't p2w? Or do you need to qualify your claim and say wow is p2w only for some people, who don't have the gold or a dedicated raid group. Because any actual power gained in game is at the behest of other players in game and is limited to what they can provide.

Umm no that's not how it works. You cant just make up your own reasons why it isn't pay 2 win to YOU.

It is pay 2 win because it is pay 2 win.... like i said, you can buy tokens with real money and convert that to gold and boost or buy BOE gear and gain advantages over players who didn't.

If you and I both were brand new to the game and played together starting at lvl 1.

You did not buy any tokens but I spend $500 bucks on tokens. I am going to out level you, I am going to buy BOE's while leveling and the best gear, I'm gonna buy BOE at max level, I'm gonna pay for boosts in M+ and raids, I will be killing people in PVP that you cannot kill yet because i boosted. I don't have to spend time farming anything mats related. I am now getting invites to raids and M+ because my ILVL is high and yours is not. Etc etc

I bought tokens with money to gain an advantage over you, i payed to win. Call it whatever u want to make urself feel better about WoW.

Now I really don't give a shit if it is pay 2 win or not, i would never buy tokens and it wouldn't effect me if i still played the game but I don't, I don't because the game is shit for many other reasons, not even considering p2w. However, without a doubt, it is Pay 2 Win, the option is there, u CAN do it and it seems to me it will be even more so in DF, we will see.

[Darkeon]

One of the latest Bellular videos touches this point nicely.

On topic: Yes.

[Relapses]

One of the latest Bellular videos touches this point nicely.

On topic: Yes.

A Bellendular video about how bad the token is??? No way!

[Caprias]

The token represents low hanging fruit for criticism of WoW. People like to blame it for all of the "bad choices" Blizzard has made since it came out as a catch-all for their general disappointment with the direction the game has taken. The real problem is that most of the people blaming the token don't spend any time actually thinking about what the token does, how it impacts the game economy and why it's necessary. They just think it's bad and that somehow removing it would make the game better.

The token influenced the scale of boosting by a lot, what I've seen in late Legion and BfA compared to the rinky dink MoP/WoD CM boosting I've done myself with a few friends is ridiculous, boosting has become a lot more common and it's likely that most of it is paid with the WoW token.

I could also go even farther and say it's probably negatively impacted the desire to bot, since you can now do more with the gold thanks to B.net balance.

What Blizzard should have done is crack down harder on rmt, especially buyers themselves as a bit of fear through examples could have cut down drastically on people buying gold illegally, what they effectively did was join it and cash in themselves thanks to the WoW-token and fostering the modern era boosting culture.

If you're in a developed country but can't commit to a guild/organized play you could actually calculate if you progress faster by getting a part time job or taking overtime to buy a boost with instead of partaking in a not so great puging experience, when I tried to check out 9.2.5 overtime was actually the most efficient way to achieve progress to a point where I could comfortably do the stuff I wanted to in the game for me.

But then I had a good look in the mirror and just thought about if this is even a game you play for fun anymore when this is a legitimate way of thinking.

[Relapses]

The token influenced the scale of boosting by a lot, what I've seen in late Legion and BfA compared to the rinky dink MoP/WoD CM boosting I've done myself with a few friends is ridiculous, boosting has become a lot more common and it's likely that most of it is paid with the WoW token.

I could also go even farther and say it's probably negatively impacted the desire to bot, since you can now do more with the gold thanks to B.net balance.

What Blizzard should have done is crack down harder on rmt, especially buyers themselves as a bit of fear through examples could have cut down drastically on people buying gold illegally, what they effectively did was join it and cash in themselves thanks to the WoW-token and fostering the modern era boosting culture.

If you're in a developed country but can't commit to a guild/organized play you could actually calculate if you progress faster by getting a part time job or taking overtime to buy a boost with instead of partaking in a not so great puging experience, when I tried to check out 9.2.5 overtime was actually the most efficient way to achieve progress to a point where I could comfortably do the stuff I wanted to in the game for me.

But then I had a good look in the mirror and just thought about if this is even a game you play for fun anymore when this is a legitimate way of thinking.

That's a perfectly reasonable way to look at it. If you're morally opposed to what the token represents then you definitely shouldn't bring your own standards down to play the game at the level you want.

That said, I don't necessarily believe that the boosting economy we're in today is completely due to the token. The token has helped make short-form boosting more popular (think weekly 15s) but I feel like a lot of the "big ticket" boosting is done through RMT (think full 11/11 Mythic Sepulcher with a mount). This fact that is further supported by Blizzard's recent take-down of boosting communities due to the RMT-adjacent nature of their business. When it comes to the big ticket boosting, it's same today as it was before the token existed.

(Side note: Yes, I understand some people will pay for the big ticket items with strictly WoW tokens but given how easy it is to find RMT websites which will sell you the service at a greatly reduced cost, I struggle to believe that this is the only way people buy boosts.)

And while I can understand some people feeling like the whole boosting thing has kind of ruined what made the game so enticing to them in the first place it doesn't seem like Blizzard is at all interested in taking steps which would actually curb it. Like I said in a post earlier in this thread, a currency wipe would be the easiest way to put everybody on even-footing again and would have a significant impact on boosting. But that's almost assuredly never going to happen (because the token exists). And while the token has negative side effects for sure, the positive benefits of being able to afford the game for many, many players without ever spending a dime of real money is probably better for everybody in the long run.

[Celement]

That's a perfectly reasonable way to look at it. If you're morally apposed to what the token represents then you definitely shouldn't bring your own standards down to play the game at the level you want.

That said, I don't necessarily believe that the boosting economy we're in today is completely due to the token. The token has helped make short-form boosting more popular but I feel like a lot of the "big ticket" boosting is done through RMT. (A fact that is further supported by Blizzard's recent take-down of boosting communities due to the RMT-adjacent nature of their business.) This is the same today as it was before the token existed.

And while I can understand some people feeling like the whole boosting thing has kind of ruined what made the game so enticing to them in the first place it doesn't seem like Blizzard is at all interested in taking steps which would actually curb it. Like I said in a post earlier in this thread, a currency wipe would be the easiest way to put everybody on even-footing again and would have a significant impact on boosting. But that's almost assuredly never going to happen (because the token exists). And while the token has negative side effects for sure, the positive benefits of being able to afford the game for many, many players without ever spending a dime of real money is probably better for everybody in the long run.

I've noticed an increase in gold sinks as well. Blizzard has been adding more and more consumables into the game that are nothing but static buffs. Add to that the new horrid crafting system that people hated in sl being expanded and it does look like they are trying to slowly raise the gold price to do end game activities.

Combo that with heavy nerfs to mob loot over the years and a reliance on trivial and tedious content like mission boards and dailies and it combines into a pretty potent shit sandwich.

[Relapses]

I've noticed an increase in gold sinks as well. Blizzard has been adding more and more consumables into the game that are nothing but static buffs. Add to that the new horrid crafting system that people hated in sl being expanded and it does look like they are trying to slowly raise the gold price to do end game activities.

Combo that with heavy nerfs to mob loot over the years and a reliance on trivial and tedious content like mission boards and dailies and it combines into a pretty potent shit sandwich.

It's hard to predict how the economy in a new expansion is going to react to new features. Blizzard is on record saying they felt like the Legendary base price costs were likely a bit too egregious so you'd hope they've learned from this. (Tall ask, I know.) The fact that you can let somebody else craft an item with your BoP materials seems to be a step in this direction but we'll have to wait for the alpha/beta to really drill down and see how they fully intend for the system to work.