WOTLK was a bad expansion for pvp

[kironto]

Many people will lose their rose tinted colored glasses hard when they play WOTLK this time around:

• Healers are broken and unkillable
• Damage from pve gear was broken hence you needed pve items to pvp and there were specs out there using full pve items to onseshot people
• Paladins and Death knights are completely broken OP
• Shadowmourne
• Classes were really imbalanced, people say in this expansion everybody was almost on the same level that is an outright lie
• Forced arenas. Gear is behing arena rating, so people that get there first get an artificial and unfair advantage that will make harder for others to aquire this gear, is complete moronic, imagine if in any pvp game people in higher ranks on top of being better at the game also got bonus to their damage and defense just for being higher than you.

It is really bad, you will see, all you need to do is go to a famous pserver and test the waters there, you will see combat rogues in full pve oneshotting people, paladins that end up leaving both their duels because they can't litterally kill one another due to infinite mana and heals, broken Shadowmourne users oneshoting people left and right, Death knights with litterally no counter class stomping everyone on the ground. Hunters with double Deterrence and tons of traps and slows that will never let you get close to them, healers in BG's deciding who wins because they are completely broken and need at the very minimum 2 skilled players using all their CD's to TRY to kill them because I have seen them surivive 5 people on them.

It's litterally a shitshow. This was bad back in the day where not everybody was minmaxing and tryharding, this will be terrible when this launches, everyone will be the same OP classes, everyone on the same OP specs etc. etc. it will be super toxic.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

hey thanks for stating something everybody already knew!

[Elbob]

healers are unkillable but the dps are running around 1 shotting everyone.... :thinking:

[loras]

Many people will lose their rose tinted colored glasses hard when they play WOTLK this time around:

• Healers are broken and unkillable
• Damage from pve gear was broken hence you needed pve items to pvp and there were specs out there using full pve items to onseshot people
• Paladins and Death knights are completely broken OP
• Shadowmourne
• Classes were really imbalanced, people say in this expansion everybody was almost on the same level that is an outright lie
• Forced arenas. Gear is behing arena rating, so people that get there first get an artificial and unfair advantage that will make harder for others to aquire this gear, is complete moronic, imagine if in any pvp game people in higher ranks on top of being better at the game also got bonus to their damage and defense just for being higher than you.

It is really bad, you will see, all you need to do is go to a famous pserver and test the waters there, you will see combat rogues in full pve oneshotting people, paladins that end up leaving both their duels because they can't litterally kill one another due to infinite mana and heals, broken Shadowmourne users oneshoting people left and right, Death knights with litterally no counter class stomping everyone on the ground. Hunters with double Deterrence and tons of traps and slows that will never let you get close to them, healers in BG's deciding who wins because they are completely broken and need at the very minimum 2 skilled players using all their CD's to TRY to kill them because I have seen them surivive 5 people on them.

It's litterally a shitshow. This was bad back in the day where not everybody was minmaxing and tryharding, this will be terrible when this launches, everyone will be the same OP classes, everyone on the same OP specs etc. etc. it will be super toxic.

Eh, while all of those minus perhaps the last one (it wasn't noteworthily better or worse than many others) are fair points that stuff has literally been the case for... pretty much every expansion?
Doesn't make WotLK better, it's just silly to single it out when the rest is no better.

That said the classic-ness will indeed make it way worse than it was, though i can tell you the minmaxxing started in late TBC already.

[kironto]

healers are unkillable but the dps are running around 1 shotting everyone.... :thinking:

Yeah dude you totally got me and everything I said is a lie now. Maybe up your IQ and stop using fallacies (red herring, appeal to ridicule) to try (and fail) to make an argument.

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Eh, while all of those minus perhaps the last one (it wasn't noteworthily better or worse than many others) are fair points that stuff has literally been the case for... pretty much every expansion?
Doesn't make WotLK better, it's just silly to single it out when the rest is no better.

That said the classic-ness will indeed make it way worse than it was, though i can tell you the minmaxxing started in late TBC already.

I believe Vanilla was a much better pvp expansion.

[LedZeppelin]

actually wotlk was the golden area lmao

[Elbob]

Yeah dude you totally got me and everything I said is a lie now. Maybe up your IQ and stop using fallacies (red herring, appeal to ridicule) to try (and fail) to make an argument.

clam down a bit, just laughing that your first 2 points list off in a contradictory fashion which made the feel of the post rather funny. Because the general idea of your post is correct but your hyperbole make you come off as an angry spammer.

I didnt even disagree with your post so drop the debate bro 'OMG FALLACY' spam. Also I presented no irrelevant information because I didn't present anything only you did ffs. Log on your main account plz.

[Tojara]

Death Knights and to a lesser extent paladins were only really broken during the first season of PvP. They toned down retribution a metric shit ton half way through S5, as they did with DKs. Were DKs still strong in S5? Yeah, but from that point on they were pretty balanced and/or out of flavor towards the end of WoTLK.

Blizzard typically uses the last season of balance for PvP, in which case a few of your points aren't super relevant anyway or would be hard to gauge. Casters gained dominance in the final seasons of WoTLK because of absurd haste levels and caster cleaves literally killing people in GCDs. Warriors became broken because of Shadowmourne, armor penetration and DBW. Maybe it will change this time around, but a lot of 3v3 when I was getting gladiator in the end of S8 was plagued with double healer warrior, the occasional beast cleave, and elemental shaman with warlocks (super fun getting nuked to death in a death coil if it decided to take your character out of LoS lol).

But yes, some of your points are true but I don't see how this makes WoTLK any worse than other points of WoW PvP. PvE gear didn't really fall out of favor until after Cataclysm, but comparing it to Classic is a bit silly. I would never go as far to call WoTLK the golden era of PvP though, but it's also not the worst iteration of arena/PvP we've had.

Did anybody else notice his post listing pretty much every class in the game, all the while claiming that everybody will pick the OP classes? If everything you listed is OP, then what is actually OP? Or better yet, what isn't OP, lol.

[Nuba]

wrath in season 8 was the golden age of wow pvp, everyone was exceptionally strong(healers and DPS alike)

Dude is either thinking about tanks in S7 or DK/Paladins in Seasons 5 and 6.

The other possibility is that OP is talking out of his ass, with zero knowledge of how it played out while assuming "high end" wotlk pve gear won't be available to anyone and everyone willing to pug for 15 minutes.

[Linkedblade]

wrath in season 8 was the golden age of wow pvp, everyone was exceptionally strong(healers and DPS alike)

Dude is either thinking about tanks in S7 or DK/Paladins in Seasons 5 and 6.

The other possibility is that OP is talking out of his ass, with zero knowledge of how it played out while assuming "high end" wotlk pve gear won't be available to anyone and everyone willing to pug for 15 minutes.

Lolret was hilarious leveling on PVP server.

[Battlebeard]

Yeah, this is indeed very true.

I remember Holy Paladins, near immortal :S gonna be a mess

[Bramickias]

It's a good thing that everyone knows what will be strong in PVP then.
Start leveling that rogue right now, and enjoy all the oneshots to come. Or wait for the pre-patch and get that monstruous DK ready. When everyone is using the OP class, nobody is OP.

[Terahertz]

PvP gearing is utter trash in wotlk for sure. I'd say the actual PvP gameplay itself, though, was actually rather solid. There were a lot of nifty intricacies to the combat that could help you get the upper hand over your opponent. It also felt a bit more.. "dynamic" in the sense that there were more strategies going on with the different comps. Felt a bit more nuanced despite its very fast pace at times.

That said, you guys are going to experience the monstrosity that is the 'preg paladin'. Ret paladins aren't really a thing anymore on the pservers. They've largely been replaced by preg paladins which is a hybrid prot+ret pala build using a spellpower weapon. It's kind of a disgusting beast.

But yeah. Wrath PvP GEARING = trash. Utter, utter trash. Cataclysm was a huuuge step up although it too had struggles with PvE trinkets being quite strong. MoP/WoD were 100% the golden age of proper MMO progression based PvP gearing. It felt satisfying and it was relatively fair thanks to the catch-up mechanics.

[Kralljin]

Many people will lose their rose tinted colored glasses hard when they play WOTLK this time around:

• Healers are broken and unkillable
• Damage from pve gear was broken hence you needed pve items to pvp and there were specs out there using full pve items to onseshot people
• Paladins and Death knights are completely broken OP
• Shadowmourne
• Classes were really imbalanced, people say in this expansion everybody was almost on the same level that is an outright lie
• Forced arenas. Gear is behing arena rating, so people that get there first get an artificial and unfair advantage that will make harder for others to aquire this gear, is complete moronic, imagine if in any pvp game people in higher ranks on top of being better at the game also got bonus to their damage and defense just for being higher than you.

I mean, not going to glorify Wotlk but it's not like TBC is that much better.
Healers are also unkillable (arguably the only time i could "easily" kill a healer was Classic).
PvE Items in PvP, that's the name of the game until MoP, even Cata had its fair share of broken PvP items.
OP Classes have existed since forever.
Legendaries...not exactly a unique factor to Wotlk.
Class balance is debatable, i'd still say that overall Wotlk is an improvement over TBC, because classes like Hunter, Shaman or Paladin have to stick to some very specific comps in order to be competitive or entirely rely on 5v5, the meme bracket, whereas in Wotlk they have more viable specs and some flexibility concerning their comp.
Gear locked behind rating...yeah, again not a unique factor to Wotlk.

I think if you break down, it basically boils down to "i dislike Arena", which is a fair criticism i suppose considering Blizzard regretted the addition of Arena already in 2009.
But never did anything about it other than add RBG's in Cata, then continued to treat (3v3) Arena as the "real PvP mode".

You could take this post, change a few details (such as exchanging Shadowmourne for Warglaives) and much of this post would accurately describe TBC PvP.
I'm not the kind of person who deludes themselves into believing that PvP will "carry" Classic Wotlk, people will try it out, some people will enjoy it, other won't or just grow tired of the stale Class Meta.
PvP has been an evershrinking sideshow in WoW, no Classic expansion which encompasses the supposed "glory days" will change that.

[kranur]

Lol @ people actually arguing with a fresh account that comes in and says "Wrath bad, wrath sucks".
But I guess we do need these doomsayers all the time ... "Classic sucks, people won't play it" ... "TBC definitely sucks, people won't play" ... "Wrath absolutely, most definitely sucks, people will see"

[Sinraye]

Many people will lose their rose tinted colored glasses hard when they play WOTLK this time around:

• Healers are broken and unkillable
• Damage from pve gear was broken hence you needed pve items to pvp and there were specs out there using full pve items to onseshot people
• Paladins and Death knights are completely broken OP
• Shadowmourne
• Classes were really imbalanced, people say in this expansion everybody was almost on the same level that is an outright lie
• Forced arenas. Gear is behing arena rating, so people that get there first get an artificial and unfair advantage that will make harder for others to aquire this gear, is complete moronic, imagine if in any pvp game people in higher ranks on top of being better at the game also got bonus to their damage and defense just for being higher than you.

It is really bad, you will see, all you need to do is go to a famous pserver and test the waters there, you will see combat rogues in full pve oneshotting people, paladins that end up leaving both their duels because they can't litterally kill one another due to infinite mana and heals, broken Shadowmourne users oneshoting people left and right, Death knights with litterally no counter class stomping everyone on the ground. Hunters with double Deterrence and tons of traps and slows that will never let you get close to them, healers in BG's deciding who wins because they are completely broken and need at the very minimum 2 skilled players using all their CD's to TRY to kill them because I have seen them surivive 5 people on them.

It's litterally a shitshow. This was bad back in the day where not everybody was minmaxing and tryharding, this will be terrible when this launches, everyone will be the same OP classes, everyone on the same OP specs etc. etc. it will be super toxic.

I agree that wotlk is where healers starting to get very hard to kill in a 1v1 situation and I wish that wasn't the case. I even remember googling back in the day which classes can kill a healer in 1v1. It is really an effect of Blizzard focusing balancing on 3v3 rather than 2v2. 2v2 was considered back in TBC e.g. you can get gladiator from 2v2 in TBC but not Wotlk. I do wish they kept healers on the squishier side, i.e. not too easy to kill, but killable if left unguarded like in TBC. Immortal/hard to kill healers in 1v1, world pvp, random bgs, is definitely not fun. I'd rather they throw an instanced healer buff in 3v3, 5v5 and ranked BGs, but otherwise kept them squishy in 2v2, normal bgs and world pvp.

Other than that I think the variety of viable classes and specs looks much better in wotlk than tbc. A lot of classes/specs are a lot more mature and fun to play. That said, to keep things from being stale the entire expansion, I do wish they introduced class balancing with each phase to spice things up and not make it so predictable i.e. start as it was in 3.3.5. and then do small balance changes in phase 2, 3, 4, 5 etc.

[giantspider]

if u could get icc/toc trinkets equivalents via pvp, wotlk would be the best pvp expansion by far. With this pve stuff, its just the best, but not by far

Healers are broken and unkillable

no, that started to be a thing since cataclysm and its like this for like 6 expansions in a row,u play healer u are god

[Woods123]

Many people will lose their rose tinted colored glasses hard when they play WOTLK this time around:

• Healers are broken and unkillable
• Damage from pve gear was broken hence you needed pve items to pvp and there were specs out there using full pve items to onseshot people
• Paladins and Death knights are completely broken OP
• Shadowmourne
• Classes were really imbalanced, people say in this expansion everybody was almost on the same level that is an outright lie
• Forced arenas. Gear is behing arena rating, so people that get there first get an artificial and unfair advantage that will make harder for others to aquire this gear, is complete moronic, imagine if in any pvp game people in higher ranks on top of being better at the game also got bonus to their damage and defense just for being higher than you.

It is really bad, you will see, all you need to do is go to a famous pserver and test the waters there, you will see combat rogues in full pve oneshotting people, paladins that end up leaving both their duels because they can't litterally kill one another due to infinite mana and heals, broken Shadowmourne users oneshoting people left and right, Death knights with litterally no counter class stomping everyone on the ground. Hunters with double Deterrence and tons of traps and slows that will never let you get close to them, healers in BG's deciding who wins because they are completely broken and need at the very minimum 2 skilled players using all their CD's to TRY to kill them because I have seen them surivive 5 people on them.

It's litterally a shitshow. This was bad back in the day where not everybody was minmaxing and tryharding, this will be terrible when this launches, everyone will be the same OP classes, everyone on the same OP specs etc. etc. it will be super toxic.

We get it you made an account to troll. Go away

[kenn9530]

Yeah dude you totally got me and everything I said is a lie now. Maybe up your IQ and stop using fallacies (red herring, appeal to ridicule) to try (and fail) to make an argument.

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I believe Vanilla was a much better pvp expansion.

When you say vanilla PvP was better noone will take you seriously, many classes were broken and plenty of 1 shot builds, just face it WoW PvP will never be balanced as its impossible to do unless they stick to PvP having set stats and gear not affecting PvP at all.

[kironto]

Death Knights and to a lesser extent paladins were only really broken during the first season of PvP. They toned down retribution a metric shit ton half way through S5, as they did with DKs. Were DKs still strong in S5? Yeah, but from that point on they were pretty balanced and/or out of flavor towards the end of WoTLK.

Yeah no, everybody can go to a live pserver and see for themselves, the typical red herring fallacy and outright lie about how paladins and dks were fine after some nerfs is that, a lie. Just because something was biblically broken and got toned down to exceptionally broken doesn't mean it is still no broken, anybody can go right now to a pserver and see for themselves.

Blizzard typically uses the last season of balance for PvP, in which case a few of your points aren't super relevant anyway or would be hard to gauge.

Everybody can go to any pserver right now on 3.3.5a and see for themselves dude, there is no balance pach incomming, you will be stuck on what it is at release, stop lying.

Did anybody else notice his post listing pretty much every class in the game, all the while claiming that everybody will pick the OP classes? If everything you listed is OP, then what is actually OP? Or better yet, what isn't OP, lol

Didn't listed every single class in the game dude, stop lying.

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wrath in season 8 was the golden age of wow pvp, everyone was exceptionally strong(healers and DPS alike)

Dude is either thinking about tanks in S7 or DK/Paladins in Seasons 5 and 6.

The other possibility is that OP is talking out of his ass, with zero knowledge of how it played out while assuming "high end" wotlk pve gear won't be available to anyone and everyone willing to pug for 15 minutes.

Don't listen to this people trying to lie to you, go to any pserver right now and see for yourself.

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Yeah, this is indeed very true.

I remember Holy Paladins, near immortal :S gonna be a mess

Indeed, this is why Blizzard had to make dampening just like they made resillence because they are lazy fucks that instead of fixing the actual core of the problem (powercreep) they patched it some BS mechanic to try to mitigate the problem but it never works.

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Just yesterday saw a duel with a preg vs a ret paladin, neither could die after like 30 minutes, they both left the duel, ret is still strong specially with shadowmourne.

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I mean, not going to glorify Wotlk but it's not like TBC is that much better.
Healers are also unkillable (arguably the only time i could "easily" kill a healer was Classic).
PvE Items in PvP, that's the name of the game until MoP, even Cata had its fair share of broken PvP items.
OP Classes have existed since forever.
Legendaries...not exactly a unique factor to Wotlk.
Class balance is debatable, i'd still say that overall Wotlk is an improvement over TBC, because classes like Hunter, Shaman or Paladin have to stick to some very specific comps in order to be competitive or entirely rely on 5v5, the meme bracket, whereas in Wotlk they have more viable specs and some flexibility concerning their comp.
Gear locked behind rating...yeah, again not a unique factor to Wotlk.

I think if you break down, it basically boils down to "i dislike Arena", which is a fair criticism i suppose considering Blizzard regretted the addition of Arena already in 2009.
But never did anything about it other than add RBG's in Cata, then continued to treat (3v3) Arena as the "real PvP mode".

You could take this post, change a few details (such as exchanging Shadowmourne for Warglaives) and much of this post would accurately describe TBC PvP.
I'm not the kind of person who deludes themselves into believing that PvP will "carry" Classic Wotlk, people will try it out, some people will enjoy it, other won't or just grow tired of the stale Class Meta.
PvP has been an evershrinking sideshow in WoW, no Classic expansion which encompasses the supposed "glory days" will change that.

Many of your points are a nirvana fallacy but you do say some important things like this:

"Blizzard regretted the addition of Arena already in 2009."

And for good reason, its a shitshow, a circus. No wonder it never took of as an e-sport, is just awful, but as you say they never did anyhing about it, like they never do, they released rated BG's with their own share of problems sure but way better than only doing clown fiesta arena.

"You could take this post, change a few details (such as exchanging Shadowmourne for Warglaives) and much of this post would accurately describe TBC PvP."

Indeed but this is my point, many, many people are complaining about TBC right now and they foolishly believe it will be better in WOTLK and it not only doesn't but it becomes worse.

"PvP has been an evershrinking sideshow in WoW, no Classic expansion which encompasses the supposed "glory days" will change that"

Exactly, this will never be the old days WOW, people have changed and the game has always been toxic with a toxic design or is designed in a way that makes people toxic, is just happens that back in the day gaming and mmorpgs were not as popular and people werent brainwashed to care about clout as much, people just wanted to have fun, now everybody is min maxing and tryharding thinking they can become the next streamer or the next youtuber and everybody will see them, is pathetic.