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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It won't stop PuGs from creating weird loot rules and yeeting anybody who doesn't follow them. /shrug
    What are they gonna do if you just roll on the "reserved" item though? Especially since M+ loot will still be at the end of the run.

    In raids it's different ofc.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Yes yes yes, Blizzard has reverted the biggest mistake EVER!

    I argued this soooo many times with people on this forum. Feels good to be right.
    You did not read that right, it even explicitly says it is not master loot (not going to be controlled by 1 person).

    Group loot seems like an attempt to improve upon the personal loot system though, which is nice since there were a few (honestly minor) bits of criticism on it that held weight.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  3. #43
    For guilds it should be master loot, not some weird half measure.

    What any decent guild is going to do is collect all the loot and then distribute it according to who stands to get the biggest upgrade from an item. So you have to first trade people and it just invites unnecessary drama if some idiot equips the item first or complains.

    For pugs it should be group loot.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-07-14 at 09:21 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Just one question: Why?
    because it was far, far too open to abuse

    sure, some groups used it fairly. but given that it was the cause of so many problems it needed something doing. if it does ever come back it would probably need some serious modifications to make it work without being a nightmare

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    For guilds it should be master loot, not some weird half measure.

    What any decent guild is going to do is collect all the loot and then distribute it according to who stands to get the biggest upgrade from an item. So you have to first trade people and it just invites unnecessary drama if some idiot equips the item first or complains.

    For pugs it should be group loot.
    Why though should an individual bow to the will of a group, even if it is a guild?
    If the guild has a convincing point the individual will be convinced, and he will comply out of free will.
    If it is an unreliable guild full with an excess of assholes though, well do they not deserve to be served back some of that asshole-ishness in turn?

    Having such a risk is a very positive influence on guilds, it penalises them for circlejerking and other collective failures, encouraging the collective to be better. That way the individual and collective goals will align more easily, ultimately benefitting cooperation.
    Last edited by loras; 2022-07-14 at 09:37 PM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Because people ninja stuff. At least that’s what they were doing back in Lich King and I always been walking with no loot.
    Lol always the robee never the robber

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by rayvio View Post
    because it was far, far too open to abuse

    sure, some groups used it fairly. but given that it was the cause of so many problems it needed something doing. if it does ever come back it would probably need some serious modifications to make it work without being a nightmare
    Like disabling it in pug groups and only allowing guild groups to use it? serious modifications

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Why though should an individual bow to the will of a group, even if it is a guild?
    If the guild has a convincing point the individual will be convinced, and he will comply out of free will.
    If it is an unreliable guild full with an excess of assholes though, well do they not deserve to be served back some of that asshole-ishness in turn?

    Having such a risk is a very positive influence on guilds, it penalises them for circlejerking and other collective failures, encouraging the collective to be better. That way the individual and collective goals will align more easily, ultimately benefitting cooperation.
    because its a guild and the guild should be able to enforce its rules, the guildlead and the officers do a lot of work to make the guild succeed, they should be the ones to decide, it's easy to be a raider and raiders are easily replaced

    if its group loot members who refuse to give up loot (or cause drama) will simply be kicked

    ofc you'll have guildleaders who will give their girlfriend all the gear, yeah those are gonna cause the guilds to implode, but well that's not a serious guild

    to summarize smart guilds will assign the loot to its best players and/or to those who benefit the most from it, that's simply the correct answer, therefore it might as well be master loot instead of fully tradable group loot

    guilds who choose to abuse it will implode, but it's unnecessary and wrong to give individual players the ability to potentially screw over the whole group, rules are rules and the right answer is the right answer

    I'm gonna give you a very simple example for why this half measure is stupid: your guild tests a new trial and the boss drops some big fat weapon that's super bis for one of your best raiders, the trial turns out to be deadweight and you don't take him, but unfortunately the trial loots the weapon and decides to fuck you over and keep it; this kind of situation should not be allowed to happen, testing trials should never hurt a guild's gear progression

    also to answer your somewhat rhetorical question why should an individual bow to the will of the group? because that's how human society works and as history goes to prove no individuals will not always be convinced of society's compelling interest, because certain individuals are jackasses

    also masterloot works just fine in Classic, in fact I would argue masterloot is a positive influence on the game and people's behavior and or performance, if you slack and suck you don't get shit, as it should be
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-07-14 at 11:04 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post

    "I enjoyed the game and it was fun, but I stopped playing because the main way to ninja loot items was removed"... Really that's a pretty interesting take right there.

    .
    Holy shit I think you just got nominated for "Strawman of the year"-award. Classic has Masterlooter. Not once have I seen someone ninjaloot. I never saw it in retail either. Maybe like one time in Archavons Vault or something in 2009.

    Stupid kids hate Masterlooter because they have to be part of a team and a community and cant just get loot they didnt earn.
    Also you can only use Masterlooter in a guild group. There is literally zero downside to ML. There are a lot of downsides to personal loot.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    There are a lot of downsides to personal loot.
    No, there mostly is just two, 1) once in a while loot that people don't want and want to trade away gets soulbound to them for no apparent reason, and 2) people act like whiny little bitches when people they don't think deserve loot get loot

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Lol always the robee never the robber
    You need to raid lead to achieve this. I’m a bad strategist, plus this is stressful as hell. I rather to stand behind and cast arcane blasts. Nice and quiet

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    because its a guild and the guild should be able to enforce its rules, the guildlead and the officers do a lot of work to make the guild succeed, they should be the ones to decide, it's easy to be a raider and raiders are easily replaced

    if its group loot members who refuse to give up loot (or cause drama) will simply be kicked

    ofc you'll have guildleaders who will give their girlfriend all the gear, yeah those are gonna cause the guilds to implode, but well that's not a serious guild

    to summarize smart guilds will assign the loot to its best players and/or to those who benefit the most from it, that's simply the correct answer, therefore it might as well be master loot instead of fully tradable group loot

    guilds who choose to abuse it will implode, but it's unnecessary and wrong to give individual players the ability to potentially screw over the whole group, rules are rules and the right answer is the right answer

    I'm gonna give you a very simple example for why this half measure is stupid: your guild tests a new trial and the boss drops some big fat weapon that's super bis for one of your best raiders, the trial turns out to be deadweight and you don't take him, but unfortunately the trial loots the weapon and decides to fuck you over and keep it; this kind of situation should not be allowed to happen, testing trials should never hurt a guild's gear progression

    also to answer your somewhat rhetorical question why should an individual bow to the will of the group? because that's how human society works and as history goes to prove no individuals will not always be convinced of society's compelling interest, because certain individuals are jackasses

    also masterloot works just fine in Classic, in fact I would argue masterloot is a positive influence on the game and people's behavior and or performance, if you slack and suck you don't get shit, as it should be
    Sounds like you are from a guild that is a living argument against master looter. ^^'

    Bolded some choice bits in no particular qualifying order, but it sounds like if this causes your guild(s) trouble you need a guild-sized mirror most of all.

    Asto the deadweight trial: He participated, he has right to part of the loot. Not much else to discuss.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    What are they gonna do if you just roll on the "reserved" item though? Especially since M+ loot will still be at the end of the run.

    In raids it's different ofc.
    I was mostly referring to raid loot; there's nothing stopping people from booting people who "ninja" by pressing Need on group loot but I can see some groups still trying to skirt the rules with "guild group" shenanigans.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post

    Asto the deadweight trial: He participated, he has right to part of the loot. Not much else to discuss.
    Negative.

    /10c

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Negative.

    /10c
    Negative denied, thanks to grouploot.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Sounds like you are from a guild that is a living argument against master looter. ^^'

    Bolded some choice bits in no particular qualifying order, but it sounds like if this causes your guild(s) trouble you need a guild-sized mirror most of all.

    Asto the deadweight trial: He participated, he has right to part of the loot. Not much else to discuss.
    If you think Mr Trial who is pulling 8k DPS single target and has joined a grand total of 2 raids deserves The First Sigil on his first ever Mythic Pantheon kill, when your dedicated raiders who have put in the time, effort and wipes to get the kill get jack shit, you are deeply mistaken my friend.

    My old Guildmaster from Retail asked me to come back to retail and lead the raid team. I accepted. Through my efforts (and those of my 1 officer) I took a brand new squad of raiders, most of which had never raided before in an organized environment in their LIVES, and lead them through Sepulcher to get Jailer Heroic down. I saw those boys & girls go from grey parses to green to blue. I helped them improve, optimize and learn how to be better raiders.

    When it was announced Master Looter would be back, you know what I told them? "Everyone, when ML is back in Dragonflight, I'm gonna be deciding who gets what, it's a dictatorship, noone gets a say in anything". And they all agreed. Cause I earned their trust & respect. I've been busting my ass off main-tanking and raid-leading at the same time for 4 months straight, to get fucking Jailer Heroic down with my own group, that I personally trained & helped improve. I tanked all of their +15's for their vaults. I linked them the guides and videos they needed to watch. I explained to them how to read logs, what those numbers mean, and how they can use their logs to improve. I've been using upwards of 20 hours per week of MY free time to get all of this shit up and running. And by all the gods out there, I will be deciding loot, on my own, cause I've fucking EARNED that right.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2022-07-15 at 12:46 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    If you think Mr Trial who is pulling 8k DPS single target and has joined a grand total of 2 raids deserves The First Sigil on his first ever Mythic Pantheon kill, when your dedicated raiders who have put in the time, effort and wipes to get the kill get jack shit, you are deeply mistaken my friend.

    My old Guildmaster from Retail asked me to come back to retail and lead the raid team. I accepted. Through my efforts (and those of my 1 officer) I took a brand new squad of raiders, most of which had never raided before in an organized environment in their LIVES, and lead them through Sepulcher to get Jailer Heroic down. I saw those boys & girls go from grey parses to green to blue. I helped them improve, optimize and learn how to be better raiders.

    When it was announced Master Looter would be back, you know what I told them? "Everyone, when ML is back in Dragonflight, I'm gonna be deciding who gets what, it's a dictatorship, noone gets a say in anything". And they all agreed. Cause I earned their trust & respect. I've been busting my ass off main-tanking and raid-leading at the same time for 4 months straight, to get fucking Jailer Heroic down with my own group, that I personally trained & helped improve. I tanked all of their +15's for their vaults. I linked them the guides and videos they needed to watch. I explained to them how to read logs, what those numbers mean, and how they can use their logs to improve. I've been using upwards of 20 hours per week of MY free time to get all of this shit up and running. And by all the gods out there, I will be deciding loot, on my own, cause I've fucking EARNED that right.
    You have earned what rng consigns to you.
    No more, no less.
    That is the nature of the game's pve loot system.

    No one needs to suffer for your poor luck.

    A good reminder that effort does not dictate rewards, only results do.
    And the luck of the draw is included in those results.

    Dislike the rng?
    I'm actually with you on that.

    But abusing a loot system to take from another?
    No sir, you have earned absolutely nothing - not even within the confines of it being a game, for those confines include rng and the (at least for now) continueing absence of the master looter.

    TLDR;
    Last edited by loras; 2022-07-15 at 12:59 AM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    You have earned what rng consigns to you.
    No more, no less.
    That is the nature of the game's pve loot system.

    No one needs to suffer for your poor luck.

    A good reminder that effort does not dictate rewards, only results do.
    And the luck of the draw is included in those results.

    Dislike the rng?
    I'm actually with you on that.

    But abusing a loot system to take from another?
    No sir, you have earned absolutely nothing - not even within the confines of it being a game, for those confines include rng and the (at least for now) continueing absence of the master looter.

    TLDR;
    Are you deliberately not reading what I'm writing? Or are you simply trolling?

    These people would not have killed Jailer Heroic without my leadership. The effect I had on their gaming experience as a player, and as a leader, has caused these men and women to improve and become better players. Do you not owe gratitude your English teacher for teaching you how to read and write proper English? Of course you do. By the same token, these players owe part of their success to MY efforts, MY leadership, MY skills in management and MY time that I devoted, to THEM. THAT is why noone batted an eyelash when I told them I will be the sole Master Looter. That is why when we actually managed to kill Heroic Jailer, I got a ton of whispers thanking me for my leadership and for bringing them to a position to get their first Ahead of the Curve achievement. Because they know, from experience, that I have used my "power" as a raid leader for THEIR betterment as players. And they respect that.

    Hell, one of my raiders, a 50 year old goddamn TANK engineer, told me he hasn't had this much fun in WoW for over a decade. And that means something. Maybe not to you, cause you don't know me or my team, but it sure as hell does to me.

    And this is why, for my team, the return of Master Looter is only a good thing. I have been raiding for 18 years, since 2004. Hundreds of thousands of epics have entered and left my bags. They know that I will be using my power as Master Looter for ONE sole purpose - increasing the % success chance of the raid as a whole. Just like every decision I've made for the past 4 months we've been raiding Sepulcher.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2022-07-15 at 01:04 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Asto the deadweight trial: He participated, he has right to part of the loot. Not much else to discuss.
    This just sounds like the shitty communist argument for giving brand new cashiers company stocks. You earn benefits through time because loyalty is fucking important, end of story. Bunch of people in here like always trying to pretend raiding is a single player game.

    We getting janky master loot back. Honestly I don't see why we can't just have personal loot with free trade and it fixes most of the problems. Sure, some insane guild might run 17 warriors to funnel loot to one guy, but who really gives a shit at the end of the day? Bliz just trying to push insane competitiveness for profit, when the game was really a lot better when players just competed on their own and Bliz left their sticky fingers out of it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Are you deliberately not reading what I'm writing? Or are you simply trolling?

    These people would not have killed Jailer Heroic without my leadership. The effect I had on their gaming experience as a player, and as a leader, has caused these men and women to improve and become better players. Do you not owe gratitude your English teacher for teaching you how to read and write proper English? Of course you do. By the same token, these players owe part of their success to MY efforts, MY leadership, MY skills in management and MY time that I devoted, to THEM. THAT is why noone batted an eyelash when I told them I will be the sole Master Looter. That is why when we actually managed to kill Heroic Jailer, I got a ton of whispers thanking me for my leadership and for bringing them to a position to get their first Ahead of the Curve achievement. Because they know, from experience, that I have used my "power" as a raid leader for THEIR betterment as players. And they respect that.
    I have indeed not read most of what you said, and have had no intent to change that after seeing the entitlement drip off of those parts you so kindly bolded.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    This just sounds like the shitty communist argument for giving brand new cashiers company stocks. You earn benefits through time because loyalty is fucking important, end of story. Bunch of people in here like always trying to pretend raiding is a single player game.

    We getting janky master loot back. Honestly I don't see why we can't just have personal loot with free trade and it fixes most of the problems. Sure, some insane guild might run 17 warriors to funnel loot to one guy, but who really gives a shit at the end of the day? Bliz just trying to push insane competitiveness for profit, when the game was really a lot better when players just competed on their own and Bliz left their sticky fingers out of it.
    Right, the communist argueing for the individual versus the entitled thieving collective.

    I should go Stalin on your ass
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

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