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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I have indeed not read most of what you said, and have had no intent to change that after seeing the entitlement drip off of those parts you so kindly bolded.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right, the communist argueing for the individual versus the entitled thieving collective.

    I should go Stalin on your ass
    Then get lost you damn troll. Don't reply to people you haven't given the minimum amount of respect by reading what they have to say.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    You have earned what rng consigns to you.
    No more, no less.
    That is the nature of the game's pve loot system.

    No one needs to suffer for your poor luck.

    A good reminder that effort does not dictate rewards, only results do.
    And the luck of the draw is included in those results.

    Dislike the rng?
    I'm actually with you on that.

    But abusing a loot system to take from another?
    No sir, you have earned absolutely nothing - not even within the confines of it being a game, for those confines include rng and the (at least for now) continueing absence of the master looter.

    TLDR;
    This is incoherent rambling...

    For the progression guilds that want to use master loot, the loot is not a "reward". The loot is a "tool" for progression. The distribution of loot is a social activity that is part of the overall team effort. All of your talk about "earning" and "reward" is completely missing the point of why these guilds want to use master looter.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Davryn View Post
    This is incoherent rambling...

    For the progression guilds that want to use master loot, the loot is not a "reward". The loot is a "tool" for progression. The distribution of loot is a social activity that is part of the overall team effort. All of your talk about "earning" and "reward" is completely missing the point of why these guilds want to use master looter.
    Mate...don't even bother replying to this guy. Read above - he replies without reading, the idiot admitted it himself.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Then get lost you damn troll. Don't reply to people you haven't given the minimum amount of respect by reading what they have to say.
    I would give you respect, but you seem intent on demanding posession of what is not yours to take or lord over on more than a few occasions.
    And in spite of your protestations i have yet to see any indication you would return what is mine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Davryn View Post
    This is incoherent rambling...

    For the progression guilds that want to use master loot, the loot is not a "reward". The loot is a "tool" for progression. The distribution of loot is a social activity that is part of the overall team effort. All of your talk about "earning" and "reward" is completely missing the point of why these guilds want to use master looter.
    You seem to have missed the point that i was mocking his sentiment of "earning" anything in a game.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    It was confirmed by Ion on Towel stream.
    I mean he said 'group loot is back without any restrictions' so i think it is it.
    ML is back... and i am one (biggish) step closer to be back (or atleast try) retail again.
    Removing it was one of the main reasons i did not want to continue playing.
    i dont understand the point,why bring back group loot?whats the benefit of ever using group loot over personal or master

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Right, the communist argueing for the individual versus the entitled thieving collective.

    I should go Stalin on your ass
    Your argument is that merely participating earns you a right to the profits, based more on luck in this case than on whether or not you deserve it. Master Looter ideally allows an arbiter to make intelligent decisions about who most earned the right to the profits, which is how a capitalist system works. You ideally get what you put in, what you are arguing for is getting rewarded at random and claiming it is deserved merely by being a single living body within the group.

    Imagine a world where promotions and raises were handed out at random in the workplace, this is what you are arguing for. It's not quite communism, but it's a lot closer to it than it is to effort+loyalty=reward.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Your argument is that merely participating earns you a right to the profits, based more on luck in this case than on whether or not you deserve it. Master Looter ideally allows an arbiter to make intelligent decisions about who most earned the right to the profits, which is how a capitalist system works. You ideally get what you put in, what you are arguing for is getting rewarded at random and claiming it is deserved merely by being a single living body within the group.

    Imagine a world where promotions and raises were handed out at random in the workplace, this is what you are arguing for. It's not quite communism, but it's a lot closer to it than it is to effort+loyalty=reward.
    Except you have not a shred of authority in regards to who deserves what, especially not in comparison to the game itself.

    Like a true party apparatnik you assert that you and yours know better and have the authority to decide, when the practical evidence in relation to the actual rewards acquisition method (namely the rng) thereof is roughly zero.

    So, comrade, when will you stop playing the coy communist in denial, or should it be off to the gulag with you?

    (also protip: capitalism is about the power to decide and little else, i'm a great fan; my investments generate profits for me regardless of the opinions of countless "qualified", "productive", "hard-working" people that are totally "competent" despite always depending on another's approval for every reward in their life, rather than ever truly reaping what they sow)
    Last edited by loras; 2022-07-15 at 01:23 AM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    The only question is if this can decimate split runs or not.
    So, is it?
    No and nothing will that doesn't fuck over others.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Except you have not a shred of authority in regards to who deserves what, especially not in comparison to the game itself.

    Like a true party apparatnik you assert that you and yours know better and have the authority to decide, when the practical evidence in relation to the actual rewards acquisition method (namely the rng) thereof is roughly zero.

    So, comrade, when will you stop playing the coy communist in denial, or should it be off to the gulag with you?
    You must be really obtuse.

    YOU CANT CLEAR A RAID ON YOUR OWN.

    You need a well-oiled group, a raid environment that will allow you as a player get shit done and have fun while doing so.

    I, as a raid leader, PROVIDE THAT ENVIRONMENT, which I worked very hard to create. That is where the non-existant authority you claim, actually exists and comes from.

    There are many more raiders out there than raiding guilds that need raiders. Keep that in mind.

    You also sound like someone who has never played a team sport in their entire life, or you'd know what it means to be part of a team. Hierarchy is a thing you know.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    You must be really obtuse.

    YOU CANT CLEAR A RAID ON YOUR OWN.

    You need a well-oiled group, a raid environment that will allow you as a player get shit done and have fun while doing so.

    I, as a raid leader, PROVIDE THAT ENVIRONMENT, which I worked very hard to create.

    There are many more raiders out there than raiding guilds that need raiders. Keep that in mind.

    You also sound like someone who has never played a team sport in their entire life, or you'd know what it means to be part of a team. Hierarchy is a thing you know.
    "I, THE STATE, PROVIDE THAT ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWED YOU TO BE SUCCESFUL; ALL YOUR SUCCESSES ARE OWED TO ME"

    Alright comrade, you win, you are no dirty capitalist pig, you are clearly one of our communist statist brothers.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    "I, THE STATE, PROVIDE THAT ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWED YOU TO BE SUCCESFUL; ALL YOUR SUCCESSES ARE OWED TO ME"

    Alright comrade, you win, you are no dirty capitalist pig, you are clearly one of our communist statist brothers.
    Had you read my very first comment, you would've seen I literally said "When Master Looter comes back, I will be deciding who gets what, it's a dictatorship, noone gets a say" to my raiders. And they all agreed. Funny how that works eh?

    Show that you're a leader who doesn't abuse power, and people will give you power willingly.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Had you read my very first comment, you would've seen I literally said "When Master Looter comes back, I will be deciding who gets what, it's a dictatorship, noone gets a say" to my raiders. And they all agreed. Funny how that works eh?

    Show that you're a leader who doesn't abuse power, and people will give you power willingly.
    Ooooh mr. communist is a democratically elected people's republic leader now. How utterly convincing.

    Become a leader by seizing power, show that you are "worthy" of it by seizing it.
    If you are unworthy, then another will come and seize it from you; the best will always rise to the top.

    Games do not allow this though, do they?
    Might have something to do with the hilariously poor relevance of these comparisons to the situation at hand.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  13. #73
    deffo on the side that ML is horrible the game and community PL was simple and easy. Nothing like joining a run and having the RL decide to change the rules or just do their own thing after saying XYZ at the start. If anything all they had to do was remove the ilvl trade restrictions or make if its within 5 ilvls or something. Returning to ninja looting is just bad.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Are you deliberately not reading what I'm writing? Or are you simply trolling?

    These people would not have killed Jailer Heroic without my leadership. The effect I had on their gaming experience as a player, and as a leader, has caused these men and women to improve and become better players. Do you not owe gratitude your English teacher for teaching you how to read and write proper English? Of course you do. By the same token, these players owe part of their success to MY efforts, MY leadership, MY skills in management and MY time that I devoted, to THEM. THAT is why noone batted an eyelash when I told them I will be the sole Master Looter. That is why when we actually managed to kill Heroic Jailer, I got a ton of whispers thanking me for my leadership and for bringing them to a position to get their first Ahead of the Curve achievement. Because they know, from experience, that I have used my "power" as a raid leader for THEIR betterment as players. And they respect that.

    Hell, one of my raiders, a 50 year old goddamn TANK engineer, told me he hasn't had this much fun in WoW for over a decade. And that means something. Maybe not to you, cause you don't know me or my team, but it sure as hell does to me.

    And this is why, for my team, the return of Master Looter is only a good thing. I have been raiding for 18 years, since 2004. Hundreds of thousands of epics have entered and left my bags. They know that I will be using my power as Master Looter for ONE sole purpose - increasing the % success chance of the raid as a whole. Just like every decision I've made for the past 4 months we've been raiding Sepulcher.
    This has got to be a joke right lmfao, there is no way someone thinks they are that important

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamingsince1981 View Post
    This has got to be a joke right lmfao, there is no way someone thinks they are that important
    Didn't you hear?
    He is what makes things possible, his leadership is indispensable.
    He is the senate.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    You must be really obtuse.

    YOU CANT CLEAR A RAID ON YOUR OWN.

    You need a well-oiled group, a raid environment that will allow you as a player get shit done and have fun while doing so.

    I, as a raid leader, PROVIDE THAT ENVIRONMENT, which I worked very hard to create. That is where the non-existant authority you claim, actually exists and comes from.

    There are many more raiders out there than raiding guilds that need raiders. Keep that in mind.

    You also sound like someone who has never played a team sport in their entire life, or you'd know what it means to be part of a team. Hierarchy is a thing you know.
    Never heard of the phrase "It takes two"? Sure, you can help someone by giving them resources to learn their class, or teaching them a few pointers. But without their effort into actually following up on that, you go nowhere. Their growth is their own efforts, not yours.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Never heard of the phrase "It takes two"? Sure, you can help someone by giving them resources to learn their class, or teaching them a few pointers. But without their effort into actually following up on that, you go nowhere. Their growth is their own efforts, not yours.
    I never said I was solely responsible. Re-read my posts. I said my input as an experienced raider and leader is what HELPED them reach the level they are today. I showed understanding when people made mistakes, knowing that each player has his/her own learning curve. Some of my raiders need to see a mechanic 3 times, and they learnt it. Others need 10 times. Others need 20. And that's fine.

    My whole point is that, no, not everyone in a raid is equal. Not everyone has equal responsibilities. Not everyone has equal output. Not everyone has equal knowledge. Some have more than others. Some, like my 1 officer who helps me out, is amazing at everything. Hierarchy is what is set. Respect, trust and authority are gained, after a prolonged period of time.

    This is all a response and argumentation to why Master Looter coming back is a good thing. It allows raid leaders, officers, loot councils to make decisions that benefit the raid team as a WHOLE. Because when you're part of a team, YOUR personal progress matters less than the GROUPS progress as a whole. That is why Main-tank prio exists - it is in YOUR best interest as a raider for YOUR main-tank to be an unkillable monster. That is why you give BIS weapons and trinkets to your top DPSers FIRST - because it is in YOUR best interest as a raider that your Destruction Warlock with 100% raid attendance who tops the meters all the time gets geared to the teeth. And that is why Master Looter is needed. So that the leadership CAN make these decisions for the benefit of the raid, instead of relying on bullshit RNG.

    THIS is what most people who have never been a part of a team do not understand.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    THIS is what most people who have never been a part of a team do not understand.
    You're talking on a forum where almost everyone has raided. You're "You just don't get it" attitude isn't really warranted or applicable here.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You're talking on a forum where almost everyone has raided. You're "You just don't get it" attitude isn't really warranted or applicable here.
    "Almost everyone has raided". Yeah. In PUGs. Where shitty master looters ninja'd their loot.

    Truth of the matter is, as soon as you're in an organized guild, with set raid times & days, if the leadership starts fucking around with loot distribution (nepotistically giving it to friends, being unfair, being coy etc and so forth), those guilds implode. They're done in 2-3 resets. Core members who don't wanna put up with the bullshit start leaving, raids turn into shit-shows, farm bosses can no longer be cleared because your 4 best DPSers and your 2 best healers + your maintank have left, and the guild is gone after a short while.

    Now PUGs are a completely different issue. Yes, people abuse ML in pugs. All the time. But guess what? MOP fixed that, if I remember correctly. I think it was in MOP, or maybe even in Cataclysm, that Blizzard made is so that ML was only available in a raid if 80%+ of the raid team was from the same guild. In a Mythic raid, that's 16/20 people. To avoid people abusing it in PUGs. And it worked.

    Also, I love how you quoted 1 line from my post, and conveniently left out everything else. Do you disagree that it is in your best interest for your raid's maintank to be beefy as fuck? Do you disagree that, when progress raiding, BIS DPS throughput items should go to your best, most loyal DPSers, who are always there and who don't fuck up mechanics? Do you disagree that the best healing trinkets should go to your highest throughput, highest attendance based healers? If the answer is "Yes" to ANY ONE of those questions, you just answered yourself why Master Looter coming back is a good thing. It literally allows you to skip 1 layer of RNG when it comes to gearing up your raid.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2022-07-15 at 02:18 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    "Almost everyone has raided". Yeah. In PUGs. Where shitty master looters ninja'd their loot.

    Truth of the matter is, as soon as you're in an organized guild, with set raid times & days, if the leadership starts fucking around with loot distribution (nepotistically giving it to friends, being unfair, being coy etc and so forth), those guilds implode. They're done in 2-3 resets. Core members who don't wanna put up with the bullshit start leaving, raids turn into shit-shows, farm bosses can no longer be cleared because your 4 best DPSers and your 2 best healers + your maintank have left, and the guild is gone after a short while.

    Now PUGs are a completely different issue. Yes, people abuse ML in pugs. All the time. But guess what? MOP fixed that, if I remember correctly. I think it was in MOP, or maybe even in Cataclysm, that Blizzard made is so that ML was only available in a raid if 80%+ of the raid team was from the same guild. In a Mythic raid, that's 16/20 people. To avoid people abusing it in PUGs. And it worked.

    Also, I love how you quoted 1 line from my post, and conveniently left out everything else.
    It wasn't Cataclysm, nor was it a vast majority of MoP, it was only added with flex group. And yes, I cut most of your post out because it's mostly talking again about how much you think you've done and how great it is, but you fail to realize there's people on this very forum who have done similar and you act as if no one else disagreeing with you has been part of a team.

    I, for one, haven't pugged anything outside of the last patch of Legion, or maybe an odd player or two for M+.

    Lastly, you seemed to almost miss the memo that this isn't master loot. From what they've said, it's group loot. So need before greed and what not.

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