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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Ion said that shit, so brace for impact, Salt must go on!.
    All this just off some wowhead clickbait...
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Giving choices is not always a positive. If giving player A a choice results in player A or player B having a bad experience, then it's a bad thing.

    When ML was a loot option, they accounted for the overwhelming number of raid groups. There were some PL and group loot raids, but if you were raiding, you were at the mercy of ML the vast majority of the time. If this didn't work for you, it was a very large deterrent to raiding. Given the sheer number of tickets Blizzard received when it was an option, it clearly didn't work for a very large number of players.

    "Start your own group" is not a viable solution for many players. There are a long list of reasons why, which would be too much of a digression for this thread topic.
    "Start your own group" isn't a viable option? Disagreed. I find it a very viable option for a variety of reasons which would be too much of a digression for this thread topic.

    To your other points.
    1. Again, majority does not mean impossible. If you take a little extra time due to you not using ML, I don't see that as a problem. There are always groups that use PL. Because *you* may not want to use it, doesn't mean others don't.

    2. Ticket Volume - I don't disagree with you that there are scumbags who abuse this system. In fact, I think Blizzard should have better systems in place for ML. Do I have a solution? Absolutely not. I'm not the game designer. But do I think that a system should be thrown out because it's not 100% perfect? Also absolutely not. It's the same with Warfronts and Islands. Because something doesn't work, doesn't mean get rid of it. It means to find what doesn't work and find creative ways to improve it.

    3. Choice - To a certain extent, you're correct that giving choices is not always a positive thing. In this instance, however, I think it is. There is clearly a demand for people who want ML. Your argument is that people want to abuse it, which I don't disagree with. I do still think there are merits to ML.

    Again, I hold no stake in this debate of MLvsPL. I think a decent compromise is allowing guild groups to decide MLvsPL and pugs to use PL. But I'll let the WoW community battle that out.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Icechaosss View Post
    To your other points.
    1. Again, majority does not mean impossible. If you take a little extra time due to you not using ML, I don't see that as a problem. There are always groups that use PL. Because *you* may not want to use it, doesn't mean others don't.
    I never said it was impossible. But when people who don't want to deal with loot management and drama have to disregard 8 out of 10 groups, an additional hurdle is created to get these players into raid content. That is not a good situation.

    2. Ticket Volume - I don't disagree with you that there are scumbags who abuse this system. In fact, I think Blizzard should have better systems in place for ML. Do I have a solution? Absolutely not. I'm not the game designer. But do I think that a system should be thrown out because it's not 100% perfect? Also absolutely not. It's the same with Warfronts and Islands. Because something doesn't work, doesn't mean get rid of it. It means to find what doesn't work and find creative ways to improve it.
    This logic is easily used to justify the continued personal loot system in all content. So that doesn't actually advance your argument in any way.

    3. Choice - To a certain extent, you're correct that giving choices is not always a positive thing. In this instance, however, I think it is. There is clearly a demand for people who want ML. Your argument is that people want to abuse it, which I don't disagree with. I do still think there are merits to ML.
    I never said people want to abuse it, ever. Re-read all of my posts. I've never said that. What I have said is that a large amount of people have issues when their fellow players decides who gets loot and who doesn't. The mass amount of loot tickets during WoD is proof of this. The WoW community has not improved to the point where this is not going to become an issue. The only situation where this choice becomes a positive is in guilds where the officers are completely trusted, and those guilds are few in number (and largely concentrated at the top).

    Again, I hold no stake in this debate of MLvsPL. I think a decent compromise is allowing guild groups to decide MLvsPL and pugs to use PL. But I'll let the WoW community battle that out.
    Honestly, the better compromise would be to make changes to how loot works: namely get rid of the ridiculous power items (you know, the trinkets that sky rocket your numbers), or make the differences in item levels far less profound. When you don't tie immense gains to player power to upgrades, and instead shift most of the performance to competency, I think you wouldn't see near the level of drama over "waaah so and so got it but I think it benefits me more!" People get dramatic because they know the looters decision not to give them upgrades significantly impacts their ability to keep up with other players in the raid.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    I never said it was impossible. But when people who don't want to deal with loot management and drama have to disregard 8 out of 10 groups, an additional hurdle is created to get these players into raid content. That is not a good situation.



    This logic is easily used to justify the continued personal loot system in all content. So that doesn't actually advance your argument in any way.



    I never said people want to abuse it, ever. Re-read all of my posts. I've never said that. What I have said is that a large amount of people have issues when their fellow players decides who gets loot and who doesn't. The mass amount of loot tickets during WoD is proof of this. The WoW community has not improved to the point where this is not going to become an issue. The only situation where this choice becomes a positive is in guilds where the officers are completely trusted, and those guilds are few in number (and largely concentrated at the top).



    Honestly, the better compromise would be to make changes to how loot works: namely get rid of the ridiculous power items (you know, the trinkets that sky rocket your numbers), or make the differences in item levels far less profound. When you don't tie immense gains to player power to upgrades, and instead shift most of the performance to competency, I think you wouldn't see near the level of drama over "waaah so and so got it but I think it benefits me more!" People get dramatic because they know the looters decision not to give them upgrades significantly impacts their ability to keep up with other players in the raid.
    1. Well then disregard 8 out of 10 groups and join the other 2 out of 10 groups then. That "hurdle" doesn't seem too bad to me.

    2. Argument? I'm not arguing for or against PL my dude. I'm arguing against people wanting others to not have a choice. Me acknowledging that ML has flaws doesn't make PL any better. Because PL still has copious amounts of flaws, but I don't find it necessary to throw out either. Make both better, and the game gets better. Removing something isn't always the best option.

    3. You're right you never actively said it, but the vast amount of those tickets were from people complaining about items being ninja'd. Which, is still abuse of the system, is it not? If you join a ML Pug raid, 99% of the time it's gonna be a MS>OS with rolls. Maybe an item or two on reserve for the raid leader and/or friends. The only time other people choose whether you get gear or not would be in a guild loot council system. And if you don't want to deal with that, don't join a guild with loot council. Or join a guild who embraces PL. If you join a guild and you don't like how the officers treat loot, leave and find another. These are not mind-blowing decisions.

    4. That's not a bad idea, but at the same time, I play an RPG for power gains. Maybe the immense power gains of say, legendary rings, arcanocrystal etc are a little much, but I think having amazing items are a good thing. Having a 1% increase per item is boring as all hell.

  5. #165
    Personally, i just plainly refute the "Ticket" argument, largely for two reasons.

    1. In Legion, ML was effectively dead for pugs, because you had to be in a guildgroup.
    That meant the only people even able to write a tickets in regards to loot complaints were
    - People who raid in a guild (which is a minority)
    - People who actually pull a karen and complain to a GM about how their guild distributed Loot

    I frankly do not see this as a large group and if someone makes a lot of noise because of the same issue over and over again, Blizzard will just auto delete the tickets made from that account.

    2. Classic exists
    For all we know, the raiding population (at least anything above LFR that is) is huge in Classic in comparison to Retail.
    There you have ML and there Loot is arguably even more contested because you have little to no alternatives when it comes to gearing your character past a certain point.

    I'm going to take a wild guess and that some players write tickets there as well because of ninja looting or whatever, somehow Blizzard must be able to manage that.
    Since 2019 i might add.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Icechaosss View Post
    1. Well then disregard 8 out of 10 groups and join the other 2 out of 10 groups then. That "hurdle" doesn't seem too bad to me.
    Not every group is "joinable" for many reasons. To disregard 80% of listed groups is a major hurdle. People aren't going to sit around waiting.

    2. Argument? I'm not arguing for or against PL my dude. I'm arguing against people wanting others to not have a choice. Me acknowledging that ML has flaws doesn't make PL any better. Because PL still has copious amounts of flaws, but I don't find it necessary to throw out either. Make both better, and the game gets better. Removing something isn't always the best option.
    You have made several arguments. I fail to see how you can't see this.

    3. You're right you never actively said it, but the vast amount of those tickets were from people complaining about items being ninja'd. Which, is still abuse of the system, is it not? If you join a ML Pug raid, 99% of the time it's gonna be a MS>OS with rolls. Maybe an item or two on reserve for the raid leader and/or friends. The only time other people choose whether you get gear or not would be in a guild loot council system. And if you don't want to deal with that, don't join a guild with loot council. Or join a guild who embraces PL. If you join a guild and you don't like how the officers treat loot, leave and find another. These are not mind-blowing decisions.
    All of what you listed are things that keep people out of raiding. You aren't going to grow raiding when players have to deal with loot drama. Anecdotally, at 37, I don't want to deal with any loot drama. Personal Loot was nice because it reduced all the drama to near unnoticeable levels. When I was younger? I tolerated it. But the last thing I want to see in raid groups is meltdowns over loot, and I will avoid raiding because of it.

    4. That's not a bad idea, but at the same time, I play an RPG for power gains. Maybe the immense power gains of say, legendary rings, arcanocrystal etc are a little much, but I think having amazing items are a good thing. Having a 1% increase per item is boring as all hell.
    You're far too fixated on absolute numbers. +1% is no less boring than +10%. Your power is increasing. That's what matters. Also, the downside to "amazing" items is when you're not the one who gets it, and now you can't compete with people who do get it. That's a terrible feeling.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Not every group is "joinable" for many reasons. To disregard 80% of listed groups is a major hurdle. People aren't going to sit around waiting.



    You have made several arguments. I fail to see how you can't see this.



    All of what you listed are things that keep people out of raiding. You aren't going to grow raiding when players have to deal with loot drama. Anecdotally, at 37, I don't want to deal with any loot drama. Personal Loot was nice because it reduced all the drama to near unnoticeable levels. When I was younger? I tolerated it. But the last thing I want to see in raid groups is meltdowns over loot, and I will avoid raiding because of it.



    You're far too fixated on absolute numbers. +1% is no less boring than +10%. Your power is increasing. That's what matters. Also, the downside to "amazing" items is when you're not the one who gets it, and now you can't compete with people who do get it. That's a terrible feeling.
    1. You say I'm focused on numbers, yet you're hung up on 80% not being joinable, when that's obviously extremely exaggerated.

    2. My "arguments" are for choice, not inherently for or against a particular system. Fail to see how you can't see that.

    3. If you think finding a guild that suits your tastes and preferences "Keep people out of raiding" then I really can't help you at that point. It takes the slightest bit of effort to vet a guild before you join. Not foolproof at all, of course. But if you can't do the bare minimum, I really can't help you.

    4. Your numbers increasing a certain amount is being fun or not is completely subjective. I don't find 1% power gains fun. I find 10% power gains fun. Fun, to me, is what matters. As for the terrible feeling, you're not incorrect. But that's why I advocate for things like VP or currency to let you work towards certain items. Taking away items don't make the game better. But having ways to work towards those items, in my opinion, do. I'm not gonna play a game if instead of doing 100 dps, I do 110 dps by the end of the tier. I will, however, play the game if instead of doing 100 dps, by the end of the tier I'm doing 150 dps. Bit of a crude example, but it's my preference.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Not every group is "joinable" for many reasons. To disregard 80% of listed groups is a major hurdle. People aren't going to sit around waiting.
    The issue with this argument is that people simply vote with their feet in that regard.

    If a significant portion of ML groups are just plain abusive towards regular members, people would avoid them more actively, which makes its maintenance much more difficult and you'd see a decline in such groups.
    If truly 80% of all players (at least the ones that are raiding) join ML runs / guilds / whatever, then that's because most prefer it that way, else you wouldn't see such a huge mass of players gravitating towards that loot system.
    Do some join out of it just being the only option available? Sure, but that's not going to be the case for the majority of players.

    You might say "well, people who organize these runs benefit from it, so everyone just goes along with it!", ignores that this is at its core a basic consumer vs Supplier relationship.
    If most people would truly prefer PL, then sooner or later any run that hasn't shifted towards PL will face issues recruiting people because people would rather join PL runs.
    It would also make recruitment of players much easier for PL runs if that's what most prefer, which is a significant burden for most organizers.

    The people who organize these runs aren't just in on some big conspiracy to exploit the masses, everyone is able to organize runs and if a certain run has much better terms than any other, it will fill much quicker and be far easier to organize and thus in turn make any other run much harder to organize.

  9. #169
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Pugs using group loot with extra rules on top is a red flag, guilds using group loot is fine.

    Just all pass and the ML need and distribute it as they would otherwise.
    It just involves one more step of having to actually trade the recepient. Cumbersome but we'll deal with it.

    If you don't like this idea I suggest you join a guild that doesn't use group loot. Problem solved.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Please do tell us what it solves.
    It's something to be abused by top guilds, nothing else. Most of the playerbase is glad to not have to deal with loot management and loot drama.

    Actually even being group loot it's extremely bad. Blizz is saying you have to accept you want to hand over the loot whether it's good for you or not or deal with the social consequences and that will be the return of loot drama. Maybe it's just to remind everyone about how much worse it was.
    My guild already uses RCloot council with full transparency for votes and rolls with you choosing if you want to put loot up for roll or not so the return of group loot and removal of ilvl restrictions is nothing but a good thing

    We actually might be staying with personal loot just so loot spec can help us get trinkets and weapons.

    Honestly I think people kinda forget that while personal loot did take a social aspect out of loot it wasn't until the ilvl restrictions were introduced that it became a real issue. Not being able to trade a BiS trinket to your tank because it was 5ilvl higher than what you had or give a caster an off hand because you didn't have one was terrible.

  11. #171
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    My guild already uses RCloot council with full transparency for votes and rolls with you choosing if you want to put loot up for roll or not so the return of group loot and removal of ilvl restrictions is nothing but a good thing

    We actually might be staying with personal loot just so loot spec can help us get trinkets and weapons.

    Honestly I think people kinda forget that while personal loot did take a social aspect out of loot it wasn't until the ilvl restrictions were introduced that it became a real issue. Not being able to trade a BiS trinket to your tank because it was 5ilvl higher than what you had or give a caster an off hand because you didn't have one was terrible.
    I would assume the ilvl restrictions will still apply for PL. But maybe not, who knows.
    Tbh removing them might encourage more guilds to keep using that system, so there is an argument to be had for that.

  12. #172
    Just tossing in my five cent:

    I remember being in a couple of guilds when master loot was the norm. After a couple of instances of unfair loot distribution due to frienships, girlfriends and people bitching I became very happy when all that stuff went away. But now its back! Yay...

    Not gonna waste my time raiding then. Good thing I've gotten into m+'s. I think masterloot is a really horrible system. But if you like it, more power to ya.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Only good thing is that you can trade without ilvl restriction. Did they say anything about PL ilvl restriction? Remove that for raids and PL will be far superior.
    Another weird thing is how they treat casters. I almost universally run with a staff on my resto druid. A held in offhand item dropped in a key. I couldn't give it to a mage friend because... reasons. Same with one hander caster items.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Ah I see, you're one of those raid leaders that's guaranteed to be super toxic and controlling over everything. Yeah, I don't really think anyone will miss you not playing the game, if adding back master looter attracts people like you then they definitely made the right call getting rid of it and not adding it.



    Because it doesn't solve a single problem yet it adds a bunch. That's objectively bad design, therefore it's trash and the game is better without it.
    You calling master loot trash shows that you have no idea how high end raiding works or mythic raiding therefore why should your opinion matter ? it's content you are not invested in

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    You calling master loot trash shows that you have no idea how high end raiding works or mythic raiding therefore why should your opinion matter ? it's content you are not invested in
    The 10 guilds in the world where it actually matters do dozens of split runs anyway. Making the game worse for 99.99% of the playerbase for that... always a good idea...

  16. #176
    So glad we spent literal years in the bullshit of personal loot for mythic guilds. At least they saw the light, eventually.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    I would assume the ilvl restrictions will still apply for PL. But maybe not, who knows.
    Tbh removing them might encourage more guilds to keep using that system, so there is an argument to be had for that.
    if the restrictions stay for PL im never going to touch that system again.
    The argument for bows dropping with no hunters in the raid is less likely than getting gear that you dont need but cant trade in my experience

    people just make this change seem like a bigger deal than it is

    PUG: use PL and if a group is using group loot the closest thing they can do to master loot is all rolling need on an item then passing it to the person they wanted it for

    guild: likely use whatever system generates more loot

    i mean there is a different mentallity in these two situations because in a PUG why care if little billy gets his BiS weapon when its a 10ilvl upgrade for you as opposed to being in a guild where billy getting that upgrade means the boss goes down faster every week and you get more chances at that gear

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    Just tossing in my five cent:

    I remember being in a couple of guilds when master loot was the norm. After a couple of instances of unfair loot distribution due to frienships, girlfriends and people bitching I became very happy when all that stuff went away. But now its back! Yay...

    Not gonna waste my time raiding then. Good thing I've gotten into m+'s. I think masterloot is a really horrible system. But if you like it, more power to ya.
    its not back
    its just group loot

  18. #178
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The 10 guilds in the world where it actually matters do dozens of split runs anyway. Making the game worse for 99.99% of the playerbase for that... always a good idea...
    Master looter is actually something most mythic raiding guilds, and their members, will appreciate.
    When you care more about universal progression than personal progression, it is the only way to do it right.

    The rest of you can keep using personal loot, doesn't bother me in the slighest.
    Don't want loot council? Join guilds that don't use it. Simple as that.

  19. #179
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Nice to see that Blizzard can learn from some of their mistakes, too bad it always takes YEARS.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    Master looter is actually something most mythic raiding guilds, and their members, will appreciate.
    When you care more about universal progression than personal progression, it is the only way to do it right.

    The rest of you can keep using personal loot, doesn't bother me in the slighest.
    Don't want loot council? Join guilds that don't use it. Simple as that.
    The player base at large didn't use master loot responsible, hence the removal. It'll be the same with group loot. I'm happy for you to have found a guild that uses ML to the benefit of everyone in it (although you might want to check this thought with ex-members if everyone actually felt the same, you might be surprised).

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