Master looter back!!!!!

[Biruteka]

I want gdkp runssss on retail!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lathspell]

I think the problem with master looter is that it can just lead to arguments too easily, example:

278 Weapon drops, both player A and player B need it.

Player A has a 272 weapon that they acquired via farming m+ and getting a drop or upgrading with valor, they run m+ a lot.
Player B has a 265 weapon that they acquired via raiding heroic because they don't like playing m+.

What does the master looter do here? It's a bigger upgrade, and thus helps the team more by giving it to player B.

Player A supposed to be ok with this? Player B got rewarded because they play the game less and don't put in the effort that player A does.

or

Give it to player A because they "deserve" it more. This is worse for the team as the ilvl in one slot increased by 6 when it could have increased by 13 for someone else.

Atleast when I usee to raid with ML those 2 just rolled on the weapon unless the 272 wanted to pass.

- - - Updated - - -

Or we had DKP and that decided

[Dalinos]

Because people abuse it to the max, why do you even have to ask? That's the only reason people want it back.

Time has shown that when guilds abuse Master Looter, they fucking implode dude. Honestly. They don't survive more than a couple of resets. Core members leave, dedicated raiders leave, management starts leaving (maintanks, officers, healing coordinators etc) and those guilds just die out.

One could argue that Master Looter existing is an AMAZINGLY efficient filter for weeding out shitty guilds like that. You can be an asshole about loot, and PL means nothing can be done about it. Be an asshole with ML, and you will feel the consequences. In the form of people leaving, people not signing up for raids, and raids not happening. Let them abuse it. In fact, I WANT shitty raid leaders to abuse it. Cause they'll lose their whole fucking team. It'll only last a couple of resets, 3 maximum.

[klaps_05]

One of the best announcements so far reg. the expansion. Finally they came to their senses after the social experience of personal loot.

[Eli85]

If you join a group using PL, and you want ML? Leave. If you join a group using ML and you want PL? Leave. It's really not a hard concept.

If this was an acceptable solution, ML would never have left the game, because the people who don't trust the ML would never apply to those groups (spoiler: this did not happen). The problem when you have PL vs group loot option, most groups are likely to elect the latter, so it eventually comes down to "if you want to raid, you need to accept a loot system that you do not like." That, honestly, is the largest problem here. People who do not want to deal with loot drama and loot management will not be able to avoid it any more, and that is a glaring negative for the WoW raid experience.

[Mendzia]

Please do tell us what it solves.

It solves... the problem that some people think it is best type of loot distribution.
I am one of these people.

It's something to be abused by top guilds, nothing else.

First off... what do you mean 'it will be abused by top guilds'?
They got already their own ecosystem of hundreds split runs.
There is no 'i want X item' but discussion who will make biggest upgrade for the progress as a whole.
Why do you even care for not your raids?...

Most of the playerbase is glad to not have to deal with loot management and loot drama.

Again.
PL is here and won't go anywhere.
99% of people would not be affected by ML return.

Actually even being group loot it's extremely bad. Blizz is saying you have to accept you want to hand over the loot whether it's good for you or not or deal with the social consequences and that will be the return of loot drama. Maybe it's just to remind everyone about how much worse it was.

I do not agree... and neither does Blizzard as it seems...
Deal with it.

I think the problem with master looter is that it can just lead to arguments too easily, example:

278 Weapon drops, both player A and player B need it.

Player A has a 272 weapon that they acquired via farming m+ and getting a drop or upgrading with valor, they run m+ a lot.
Player B has a 265 weapon that they acquired via raiding heroic because they don't like playing m+.

What does the master looter do here? It's a bigger upgrade, and thus helps the team more by giving it to player B.

Player A supposed to be ok with this? Player B got rewarded because they play the game less and don't put in the effort that player A does.

or

Give it to player A because they "deserve" it more. This is worse for the team as the ilvl in one slot increased by 6 when it could have increased by 13 for someone else.

Depends on many things: is the raid SR/HR?
Is the raid GDKP?... or everything is just being rolled by MS>OS?
Is this guild run?... or PUG?
Does the guild use DKP? EP/GP? Loot council?
Did the person do good or slacking?

There is no golden answer for all situations.
It works perfectly on Classic... and people are even willingly paying for these items here.

[Utrrabbit]

Yes yes yes, Blizzard has reverted the biggest mistake EVER!

I argued this soooo many times with people on this forum. Feels good to be right.

It's not masterloot. They are returning grouploot. It is close but not the samething.

- - - Updated - - -

So you want to ninja loot to your friends. Sounds like the only reason you used ML was to take gear. Also with an additude like yours I highly doubt youd ever keep a raidgroup around longer than a day.

[kamuimac]

Yes yes yes, Blizzard has reverted the biggest mistake EVER!

I argued this soooo many times with people on this forum. Feels good to be right.

yes toxicicty is returnign to game and toxic guilds are happy

luckily players learned to avoid guild in wow so they will make sure to avoid them even more now after those toxic change.s

raiding will die even faster now . gg blizz

[Talon8669]

It solves... the problem that some people think it is best type of loot distribution.
I am one of these people.



First off... what do you mean 'it will be abused by top guilds'?
They got already their own ecosystem of hundreds split runs.
There is no 'i want X item' but discussion who will make biggest upgrade for the progress as a whole.
Why do you even care for not your raids?...



Again.
PL is here and won't go anywhere.
99% of people would not be affected by ML return.



I do not agree... and neither does Blizzard as it seems...
Deal with it.



Depends on many things: is the raid SR/HR?
Is the raid GDKP?... or everything is just being rolled by MS>OS?
Is this guild run?... or PUG?
Does the guild use DKP? EP/GP? Loot council?
Did the person do good or slacking?

There is no golden answer for all situations.
It works perfectly on Classic... and people are even willingly paying for these items here.

I have never been against ML or really for it. What I have always been against is a corrupt guild system and loot counsel. I have left a few guilds back in the day when I was pulling top DPS but had tier pieces go to others either because they were officers or friends of said officers. What makes a good loot system is one that is fair and the details of said system are discussed up front and made apparent to all. Hell no issues in TBC except for one with a SR where they made the SR list and then apparently made "another one" which I never listed the loot I wanted on. Solution, never ran with them again. I do think it's a little silly though if you like a game to simply refuse to play it because you don't get to be the master looter; comes off as extremely controlling but it is your life so I am sure you're living the best one you want to.

[trapmaster]

Lmao Revert back to old loot system is that exciting... Not...... For real. What the fuck?

[Mendzia]

I have never been against ML or really for it. What I have always been against is a corrupt guild system and loot counsel.

Problem with people and not the system itself. (1)

I have left a few guilds back in the day when I was pulling top DPS

Yeah... yeah... everyone here pulls top DPS and other people are scrubs that do not deserve anything...
It is also funny you say this... as with PL you would not be rewarded for doing top DPS and be on par with afking player doing nothing.

but had tier pieces go to others either because they were officers or friends of said officers.

Problem with people and not the system itself. (2)

What makes a good loot system is one that is fair and the details of said system are discussed up front and made apparent to all.

Problem with people and not the system itself. (3)

Hell no issues in TBC except for one with a SR where they made the SR list and then apparently made "another one" which I never listed the loot I wanted on.

Problem with people and not the system itself. (4)

Solution, never ran with them again.

I've said like 5 times already in this thread... i want to PL stay as people will 99% times still pick it up.

I do think it's a little silly though if you like a game

Where did i say i like the game?
I quit early Legion, skipped whole BFA and checked for 1 month SL to do Torghast... and quit again.
Returing of ML could be first (tiny) step to make be back

to simply refuse to play it because you don't get to be the master looter;

It is one of the reasons i no longer play.
Not the reason.

comes off as extremely controlling but it is your life so I am sure you're living the best one you want to.

Again... i have no idea what my opinion about random the game has to do with my irl... but sure i guess.

[MidnyteTV]

Wow. First comment of support in the whole thread. Thanks dude. Appreciated. They nearly managed to convince me that my efforts and my time spent to train my squad was nothing to be proud of.

Unfortunately this forum is full of people who have never, and could never lead a raid. Without raid leaders, there is no raid. They know it. They just don't have the balls to admit it. They come here and bitch about why every piece of loot is not theirs, when there are many others in raid.

- - - Updated - - -

yes toxicicty is returnign to game and toxic guilds are happy

luckily players learned to avoid guild in wow so they will make sure to avoid them even more now after those toxic change.s

raiding will die even faster now . gg blizz

LOL

Hopefully you don't join a guild, we don't need selfish people like you. We need team players. Players who want to work as a team and kill bosses. The devs knew it was mistake, and they reverted to something cooperative. Not selfish like PL.

[schwank05]

This has to be one of the most asinine things I've ever read.

"I enjoyed the game and it was fun, but I stopped playing because the main way to ninja loot items was removed"... Really that's a pretty interesting take right there.

Master loot is absolute trash and the game is infinitely better without it. Luckily it doesn't sound like it's actually coming back, it'll just be group loot and it'll only be in raids not dungeons, so it's significantly better than if master loot was actually returning.

No, but the current system rewards everyone no matter what, this way if you have poor attendance or are not performing you will not receive upgrades until last .

[Icechaosss]

If this was an acceptable solution, ML would never have left the game, because the people who don't trust the ML would never apply to those groups (spoiler: this did not happen). The problem when you have PL vs group loot option, most groups are likely to elect the latter, so it eventually comes down to "if you want to raid, you need to accept a loot system that you do not like." That, honestly, is the largest problem here. People who do not want to deal with loot drama and loot management will not be able to avoid it any more, and that is a glaring negative for the WoW raid experience.

No, it left because Blizzard micro-manages how people play the game. Which has been an issue for literally years. Giving people *choice* is not a negative thing, my dude.

If you joined a ML group when you don't like ML, I really can't help you at that point. There's no statistical proof you can provide to say "If you want to raid, you need to do ML." One being more popular than the other does not mean the other one does not exist.

Or you can start your own group, and take it from there. Let people play the game how they want to play it, and stop forcing the way *you* want it because of a few bad apples. Not everyone is out to get you.

[Eli85]

No, it left because Blizzard micro-manages how people play the game. Which has been an issue for literally years. Giving people *choice* is not a negative thing, my dude.

If you joined a ML group when you don't like ML, I really can't help you at that point. There's no statistical proof you can provide to say "If you want to raid, you need to do ML." One being more popular than the other does not mean the other one does not exist.

Or you can start your own group, and take it from there. Let people play the game how they want to play it, and stop forcing the way *you* want it because of a few bad apples. Not everyone is out to get you.

Giving choices is not always a positive. If giving player A a choice results in player A or player B having a bad experience, then it's a bad thing.

When ML was a loot option, they accounted for the overwhelming number of raid groups. There were some PL and group loot raids, but if you were raiding, you were at the mercy of ML the vast majority of the time. If this didn't work for you, it was a very large deterrent to raiding. Given the sheer number of tickets Blizzard received when it was an option, it clearly didn't work for a very large number of players.

"Start your own group" is not a viable solution for many players. There are a long list of reasons why, which would be too much of a digression for this thread topic.

[Tiwack]

I've been asking for the return of group loot for so long, it'll be great to have it back even if it's just for raids!
So many Tmog-pugs where players just adopt their own weird loot rules, if they even care to loot anything at all besides what they can use for themselves...

Maybe mod can edit the title if this is gonna be the new discuss thread about it?

[cocomen2]

I think this is fake. Nice try though. You damn scared me.

Ion said that shit, so brace for impact, Salt must go on!.

[Tiwack]

Ion said that shit, so brace for impact, Salt must go on!.

All this just off some wowhead clickbait...

[Icechaosss]

Giving choices is not always a positive. If giving player A a choice results in player A or player B having a bad experience, then it's a bad thing.

When ML was a loot option, they accounted for the overwhelming number of raid groups. There were some PL and group loot raids, but if you were raiding, you were at the mercy of ML the vast majority of the time. If this didn't work for you, it was a very large deterrent to raiding. Given the sheer number of tickets Blizzard received when it was an option, it clearly didn't work for a very large number of players.

"Start your own group" is not a viable solution for many players. There are a long list of reasons why, which would be too much of a digression for this thread topic.

"Start your own group" isn't a viable option? Disagreed. I find it a very viable option for a variety of reasons which would be too much of a digression for this thread topic.

To your other points.
1. Again, majority does not mean impossible. If you take a little extra time due to you not using ML, I don't see that as a problem. There are always groups that use PL. Because *you* may not want to use it, doesn't mean others don't.

2. Ticket Volume - I don't disagree with you that there are scumbags who abuse this system. In fact, I think Blizzard should have better systems in place for ML. Do I have a solution? Absolutely not. I'm not the game designer. But do I think that a system should be thrown out because it's not 100% perfect? Also absolutely not. It's the same with Warfronts and Islands. Because something doesn't work, doesn't mean get rid of it. It means to find what doesn't work and find creative ways to improve it.

3. Choice - To a certain extent, you're correct that giving choices is not always a positive thing. In this instance, however, I think it is. There is clearly a demand for people who want ML. Your argument is that people want to abuse it, which I don't disagree with. I do still think there are merits to ML.

Again, I hold no stake in this debate of MLvsPL. I think a decent compromise is allowing guild groups to decide MLvsPL and pugs to use PL. But I'll let the WoW community battle that out.

[Eli85]

To your other points.
1. Again, majority does not mean impossible. If you take a little extra time due to you not using ML, I don't see that as a problem. There are always groups that use PL. Because *you* may not want to use it, doesn't mean others don't.

I never said it was impossible. But when people who don't want to deal with loot management and drama have to disregard 8 out of 10 groups, an additional hurdle is created to get these players into raid content. That is not a good situation.

2. Ticket Volume - I don't disagree with you that there are scumbags who abuse this system. In fact, I think Blizzard should have better systems in place for ML. Do I have a solution? Absolutely not. I'm not the game designer. But do I think that a system should be thrown out because it's not 100% perfect? Also absolutely not. It's the same with Warfronts and Islands. Because something doesn't work, doesn't mean get rid of it. It means to find what doesn't work and find creative ways to improve it.

This logic is easily used to justify the continued personal loot system in all content. So that doesn't actually advance your argument in any way.

3. Choice - To a certain extent, you're correct that giving choices is not always a positive thing. In this instance, however, I think it is. There is clearly a demand for people who want ML. Your argument is that people want to abuse it, which I don't disagree with. I do still think there are merits to ML.

I never said people want to abuse it, ever. Re-read all of my posts. I've never said that. What I have said is that a large amount of people have issues when their fellow players decides who gets loot and who doesn't. The mass amount of loot tickets during WoD is proof of this. The WoW community has not improved to the point where this is not going to become an issue. The only situation where this choice becomes a positive is in guilds where the officers are completely trusted, and those guilds are few in number (and largely concentrated at the top).

Again, I hold no stake in this debate of MLvsPL. I think a decent compromise is allowing guild groups to decide MLvsPL and pugs to use PL. But I'll let the WoW community battle that out.

Honestly, the better compromise would be to make changes to how loot works: namely get rid of the ridiculous power items (you know, the trinkets that sky rocket your numbers), or make the differences in item levels far less profound. When you don't tie immense gains to player power to upgrades, and instead shift most of the performance to competency, I think you wouldn't see near the level of drama over "waaah so and so got it but I think it benefits me more!" People get dramatic because they know the looters decision not to give them upgrades significantly impacts their ability to keep up with other players in the raid.