Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This isn't a problem with the slogan. It's a problem with willful ignorance. No slogan is immune to people being intentionally, willfully ignorant about it.

    They'd lie and believe whatever they wanted regardless of the slogan. The slogan isn't driving their stance.

    This is what I mean; you're not talking about the slogan. You're talking about people intentionally misrepresenting it. That's not a flaw in the slogan itself.
    Going to try and explain it so that hopefully you understand why a lot of people feel that it is a bad slogan, probably going to do a shit job but here we go anyways. Take the "ok" sign, before 4chan did shit with it it meant, ok, and if it was below the belt it was the "made you look" game, so I get to punch you. Defund on the face of it means exactly what its definition is. However the word got co-opted by republicans to mean abolish, just like the ok sign got co-opted to mean white power. Now we have gotten articles about someone obviously doing the made you look game and the articles author thinks that person is throwing white power signs up. When average joe person sees it because it has been co-opted they very well might think someone just going "ok", is throwing wp signs up. Same thing with defund, because republicans co-opted the word to mean something different for a long time now, someone hearing that can very well think that the democrats want to abolish the police.

    Not everyone doing it is doing it intentionally, or with malice. That is why you see in the statistics that the majority of minorities do not want to "defund", yet when worded to say do you want to take police funds and put it towards things like mental health professionals, the majority does want it. This is why it is a bad slogan, because the word has been co-opted by years of bad use from republicans when it comes to "defunding" planned parenthood.
    Last edited by Deus Mortis; 2022-07-18 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #202
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    You're ascribing maliciousness to laziness. Not a great look.
    To willful ignorance, not "laziness".

    You could work out what "Defund the Police" is about in less than a minute's search time on the Internet. Not bothering to and yet still forming an opinion about the movement is not "laziness", it's malice.

    That last bit is important; I couldn't tell you the first thing about Jamaican politics. If I saw a campaign slogan for a party and then thought I knew enough to express opinions about the state of their political sphere without any further investigation, I'd be an asshole acting out of willful ignorance and malice, not someone with a legitimate opinion.

    Jamaica picked for literally no reason, but I legitimately don't know anything about their internal politics.

    Let's take a very shallow dive into what slogans are for and how to craft good slogans.

    They're to convince people over to your side and provide something to rally around. This slogan fails both tests. The initial response people have is to think the movement is full of idiots. You can't rally around something when 1/2 your side hates explaining the damn slogan to people.

    You craft good slogans by targeting people's motivations. A lot of people still equate police with safety. That slogan when read by those people reads "I want you less safe!" That's why it's a bad slogan. There are a shitload of stupid/lazy people in this world. They're not all malicious. Also, calling them malicious because they're susceptible to propaganda just makes the movement look worse. People don't like being insulted.

    From above, better slogans:

    "Save our cities!" People recognize there's something wrong. They want it fixed. This goes directly to that motivation. Pretty hard to attack.
    "Stop wasteful spending!" People don't like wasteful spending. They want to pay as little taxes as possible. This goes directly to that motivation. Pretty hard to attack.
    "Give our police the support they need!" Again, a lot of people equate police with safety. This goes directly to their safety motivation. Pretty hard to attack.

    When your slogan gives people ammunition against you, you've already lost the messaging battle. You're no longer talking about reallocating funding to social services, you're trying to defend your slogan. Just look at this thread.;
    Pretty much all the complaints given against the slogan thus far have been "some people are malicious and will lie about it" and "but I want to reform the police, not defund them, and confuse my opposing the movement for there being an internal problem with the slogan".

    Even here; your slogans don't work. "Save our cities" is so blandly generic it means nothing. It could be talking about anti-homelessness ventures. Or COVID-19 response. "Stop wasteful spending" doesn't apply, because most Defund advocates are advocating for increasing spending, overall; it's distribution of that spending that's being challenged. And "give our police the support they need" is directly antithetical to the Defund movement's goals, which is to reduce policing overall.

    Yes, we get it; you don't support the Defund movement. That's not a communication problem.

    It really doesn't help when people are so full of self-righteousness and belief in their own infallibility that they can't take criticism on how shitty a bad slogan is.
    I keep asking for an explanation, and the answer is always "but people might lie about what your movement is about", or "but I don't want to defund the police".

    Neither of those is a communication issue based on the slogan. You can lie about any slogan. And if you don't support the goals, no slogan's gonna convince you otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Going to try and explain it so that hopefully you understand why a lot of people feel that it is a bad slogan, probably going to do a shit job but here we go anyways. Take the "ok" sign, before 4chan did shit with it it meant, ok, and if it was below the belt it was the "made you look" game, so I get to punch you. Defund on the face of it means exactly what its definition is. However the word got co-opted by republicans to mean abolish, just like the ok sign got co-opted to mean white power. Now we have gotten articles about someone obviously doing the made you look game and the articles author thinks that person is throwing white power signs up. When average joe person sees it because it has been co-opted they very well might think someone just going "ok", is throwing wp signs up. Same thing with defund, because republicans co-opted the word to mean something different for a long time now, someone hearing that can very well think that the democrats want to abolish the police.

    Not everyone doing it is doing it intentionally, or with malice. That is why you see in the statistics that the majority of minorities do not want to "defund", yet when worded to say do you want to take police funds and put it towards things like mental health professionals, the majority does want it. This is why it is a bad slogan, because the word has been co-opted by years of bad use from republicans when it comes to "defunding" planned parenthood.
    I don't see that Republicans are even using it differently.

    "Defund" is a matter of degree, and always has been. You can mean "defund completely", or "defund partially". And some "Defund the Police" advocates do mean "completely". That's not off the table. That's not a misunderstanding of the movement.

    Are we seriously at a point where Republicans used a word so nobody else can ever use it in the future?

    Like, I seriously do not understand how any of you can think these arguments make any kind of sense.

    Edit: And to repeat a point; I am not arguing everyone should be on-board with "Defund the Police". If you don't agree with it, that's fine. But when your argument boils down to "it's a bad slogan because people might think you want to defund the police", I question what you're on about.

    Edit edit: Which may be part of the confusion, because thinking back, some have made arguments that slogans are meant to draw people into the movement. And I flat-out disagree with that. Making a slogan that's inviting to conceal what the movement's about by misleading people into supporting it without understanding it is propaganda. A good slogan should be open and honest; if that fails to attract enough support, then the idea simply doesn't have enough popular support. And that's fine. I'd rather see a movement honestly fail than garner support through dishonesty and propaganda.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-07-18 at 03:45 PM.


  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To willful ignorance, not "laziness".
    You could work out what "Defund the Police" is about in less than a minute's search time on the Internet. Not bothering to and yet still forming an opinion about the movement is not "laziness", it's malice.
    I've already addressed this in two different ways:

    1 A lot of people are too busy. That's not willful ignorance. It's being too busy.
    2 If the initial response, before googling, is negative, it's a shitty slogan.

    Edit: I'm reminded of the scene from pulp fiction in the diner where vince asks mia not to be offended by the question he's going to ask her and she says "I could be offended and through no fault of my own broken my promise." People have initial reactions to things. It's great that you think you are somehow immune, but other people aren't.
    That last bit is important; I couldn't tell you the first thing about Jamaican politics. If I saw a campaign slogan for a party and then thought I knew enough to express opinions about the state of their political sphere without any further investigation, I'd be an asshole acting out of willful ignorance and malice, not someone with a legitimate opinion.

    Jamaica picked for literally no reason, but I legitimately don't know anything about their internal politics.
    Great I guess? You're not the type of person I'm talking about.

    Pretty much all the complaints given against the slogan thus far have been "some people are malicious and will lie about it" and "but I want to reform the police, not defund them, and confuse my opposing the movement for there being an internal problem with the slogan".
    Yes, the complaints have been about how shitty the slogan is.
    Even here; your slogans don't work. "Save our cities" is so blandly generic it means nothing. It could be talking about anti-homelessness ventures. Or COVID-19 response. "Stop wasteful spending" doesn't apply, because most Defund advocates are advocating for increasing spending, overall; it's distribution of that spending that's being challenged. And "give our police the support they need" is directly antithetical to the Defund movement's goals, which is to reduce policing overall.
    1 YES WE CAN! is a pretty fucking generic slogan that means nothing and it's a great slogan. It's something people can rally around, the initial response it positive, it gears people to action. Being bland and generic are good things for slogans, not bad things.
    2 The huge spending on police is wasteful. It's incredibly inefficient to be allocating that money to police when you get better results elsewhere.
    3 No, it's not. It's not saying you want to increase funding to police, it means that other systems, like social services, could be stood up to provide police with "the support they need"
    Yes, we get it; you don't support the Defund movement. That's not a communication problem.
    I do support the idea. The problem is the shitty slogan. I fucking hate starting the conversation about the idea from the bottom of a giant rhetorical hole.

    I keep asking for an explanation, and the answer is always "but people might lie about what your movement is about", or "but I don't want to defund the police".

    Neither of those is a communication issue based on the slogan. You can lie about any slogan. And if you don't support the goals, no slogan's gonna convince you otherwise.
    The answer is that the initial response to the slogan is negative and people hate explaining the shitty slogan. Again, you just don't like that answer.
    Last edited by Ripster42; 2022-07-18 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To willful ignorance, not "laziness".

    You could work out what "Defund the Police" is about in less than a minute's search time on the Internet. Not bothering to and yet still forming an opinion about the movement is not "laziness", it's malice.

    That last bit is important; I couldn't tell you the first thing about Jamaican politics. If I saw a campaign slogan for a party and then thought I knew enough to express opinions about the state of their political sphere without any further investigation, I'd be an asshole acting out of willful ignorance and malice, not someone with a legitimate opinion.

    Jamaica picked for literally no reason, but I legitimately don't know anything about their internal politics.

    Pretty much all the complaints given against the slogan thus far have been "some people are malicious and will lie about it" and "but I want to reform the police, not defund them, and confuse my opposing the movement for there being an internal problem with the slogan".

    Even here; your slogans don't work. "Save our cities" is so blandly generic it means nothing. It could be talking about anti-homelessness ventures. Or COVID-19 response. "Stop wasteful spending" doesn't apply, because most Defund advocates are advocating for increasing spending, overall; it's distribution of that spending that's being challenged. And "give our police the support they need" is directly antithetical to the Defund movement's goals, which is to reduce policing overall.

    Yes, we get it; you don't support the Defund movement. That's not a communication problem.



    I keep asking for an explanation, and the answer is always "but people might lie about what your movement is about", or "but I don't want to defund the police".

    Neither of those is a communication issue based on the slogan. You can lie about any slogan. And if you don't support the goals, no slogan's gonna convince you otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't see that Republicans are even using it differently.

    "Defund" is a matter of degree, and always has been. You can mean "defund completely", or "defund partially". And some "Defund the Police" advocates do mean "completely". That's not off the table. That's not a misunderstanding of the movement.

    Are we seriously at a point where Republicans used a word so nobody else can ever use it in the future?

    Like, I seriously do not understand how any of you can think these arguments make any kind of sense.

    Edit: And to repeat a point; I am not arguing everyone should be on-board with "Defund the Police". If you don't agree with it, that's fine. But when your argument boils down to "it's a bad slogan because people might think you want to defund the police", I question what you're on about.

    Edit edit: Which may be part of the confusion, because thinking back, some have made arguments that slogans are meant to draw people into the movement. And I flat-out disagree with that. Making a slogan that's inviting to conceal what the movement's about by misleading people into supporting it without understanding it is propaganda. A good slogan should be open and honest; if that fails to attract enough support, then the idea simply doesn't have enough popular support. And that's fine. I'd rather see a movement honestly fail than garner support through dishonesty and propaganda.
    Cute you think that some people have even one minute or more to spare to see on the internet what a bad slogan is about.

  5. #205
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    I've already addressed this in two different ways:

    1 A lot of people are too busy. That's not willful ignorance. It's being too busy.
    2 If the initial response, before googling, is negative, it's a shitty slogan.
    1. If you're "too busy" to look it up, you're "too busy" to form and express any opinion on the subject whatsoever. See my addition about Jamaican politics. I don't expect everyone out there to take time out of their day to look up the state of Jamaican internal politics. I do expect them to not form an opinion unless they make that time.

    2. Again, I'm not seeing where the initial negative response is coming from. And see above; if you don't have time to check what it means, you don't have time to form an opinion about it in the first place. It's fine to not give a shit. It's not fine to bullshit about things you've intentionally avoided learning anything about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Cute you think that some people have even one minute or more to spare to see on the internet what a bad slogan is about.
    They don't have a minute to look it up, but they have all those minutes they spend bitching about the movement?

    Sure, Jan.


  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    1. If you're "too busy" to look it up, you're "too busy" to form and express any opinion on the subject whatsoever. See my addition about Jamaican politics. I don't expect everyone out there to take time out of their day to look up the state of Jamaican internal politics. I do expect them to not form an opinion unless they make that time.

    2. Again, I'm not seeing where the initial negative response is coming from. And see above; if you don't have time to check what it means, you don't have time to form an opinion about it in the first place. It's fine to not give a shit. It's not fine to bullshit about things you've intentionally avoided learning anything about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They don't have a minute to look it up, but they have all those minutes they spend bitching about the movement?

    Sure, Jan.
    And that is why you need a good slogan. Thank you for proving my point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    A big consideration is that the slogan is a grassroot slogan, that became popularised after yet another brutal police murder, it's not a slogan made by marketing gurus getting paid, but from the suffering of a community that has been continually, and wilfully, ignored. The slogan can be less than ideal, but trying to repackage it because it isn't selling to idiots isn't exactly going to win over the people who, at a groundswell, pushed the slogan from a place of dangerous oppression.

    I mean, fuck the police was better anyway.
    I am not paid, I am not in marketing, yet I produced a way better slogan in like 5 min : "Reform the police".

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I am not paid, I am not in marketing, yet I produced a way better slogan in like 5 min : "Reform the police".
    cool. it won't change the minds of the people who love it when cops get to kill uppity black people. so again why we bother with this hand wringing is beyond me. but of course that seem to be the point in of itself, to just talk in circles while ignoring the real topic at hand.

  8. #208
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    A big consideration is that the slogan is a grassroot slogan, that became popularised after yet another brutal police murder, it's not a slogan made by marketing gurus getting paid, but from the suffering of a community that has been continually, and wilfully, ignored. The slogan can be less than ideal, but trying to repackage it because it isn't selling to idiots isn't exactly going to win over the people who, at a groundswell, pushed the slogan from a place of dangerous oppression.

    I mean, fuck the police was better anyway.
    And as I edited in; I'd vastly prefer an honest and open slogan over some marketing-based pablum intended to mislead people into supporting a movement out of ignorance.

    If the idea can't get support for what it actually is, lying about it to get more support just makes you a propagandist asshole.

    Same goes for ACAB and so forth. I don't care if that slogan turns people off. It honestly expresses what it's trying to express. And that's better than some bland focus-grouped marketing nonsense that seeks to be empty and meaningless enough it offends no one.


  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    cool. it won't change the minds of the people who love it when cops get to kill uppity black people. so again why we bother with this hand wringing is beyond me. but of course that seem to be the point in of itself, to just talk in circles while ignoring the real topic at hand.
    Because that is not those people that you need to convince ? But all the other "undecided" which "Defund the Police" does not work on ? Just a thought.

  10. #210
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I am not paid, I am not in marketing, yet I produced a way better slogan in like 5 min : "Reform the police".
    Again, people who want to defund the police do not want to reform the police.

    "I could support your movement if you were a completely different and completely antithetical movement" is not an argument. It's just lying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Because that is not those people that you need to convince ? But all the other "undecided" which "Defund the Police" does not work on ? Just a thought.
    Slogans aren't meant to convince anyone. They're meant to be chanted by supporters and to fit on protest signs.

    If you're being convinced by a slogan, you're an unthinking sheep and frankly, I wouldn't want you as part of my movement, because you don't actually support what we're about. Because you have no idea what we're about. You just saw a neat slogan. It's like joining a political party because you liked their hat and don't care about their platform.


  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Because that is not those people that you need to convince ? But all the other "undecided" which "Defund the Police" does not work on ? Just a thought.
    there is no ""undecided" here, at least none that matter to bother catering to them. it's like the mythical suburban white middle class centrist: there is like 5 of them.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, people who want to defund the police do not want to reform the police.

    "I could support your movement if you were a completely different and completely antithetical movement" is not an argument. It's just lying.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Slogans aren't meant to convince anyone. They're meant to be chanted by supporters and to fit on protest signs.

    If you're being convinced by a slogan, you're an unthinking sheep and frankly, I wouldn't want you as part of my movement, because you don't actually support what we're about. Because you have no idea what we're about. You just saw a neat slogan. It's like joining a political party because you liked their hat and don't care about their platform.
    WHOOPS.

    A slogan is a motto that is enduring and tied to a group, representing their purpose or ideals. The goal of a slogan is to convince a target audience to buy a product or service, or believe in something.

    https://www.canto.com/blog/what-is-a-slogan/
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XIapgJCV1r4XSf

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    1. If you're "too busy" to look it up, you're "too busy" to form and express any opinion on the subject whatsoever. See my addition about Jamaican politics. I don't expect everyone out there to take time out of their day to look up the state of Jamaican internal politics. I do expect them to not form an opinion unless they make that time.
    And that's a bad expectation. People have initial reactions to things, including you. We saw that yesterday with the supposed insider trading that was actually about information that had been in the public realm for 17 months. Where was your reservation on saying pelosi belonged in jail?
    2. Again, I'm not seeing where the initial negative response is coming from. And see above; if you don't have time to check what it means, you don't have time to form an opinion about it in the first place. It's fine to not give a shit. It's not fine to bullshit about things you've intentionally avoided learning anything about.
    A lot of people believe that police bring safety. That's their preconception. When you say "Defund the police" you're telling those people you want them to be less safe. Wanting people to stop behaving in human ways that you yourself demonstrate is futile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  14. #214
    if you genuinely think the cops make you safe it's because you assume they will be the first line of defense of you property, not your actual life.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You could work out what "Defund the Police" is about in less than a minute's search time on the Internet. Not bothering to and yet still forming an opinion about the movement is not "laziness", it's malice.
    Why do you get the benefit of the doubt for the cop in the other thread that you formed an opinion on without looking into it, yet people regarding this slogan do not? Why in this scenario is it automatically malice? Honest question, because I actually understand where you were coming from in the other thread, I get not wanting to "doomscroll".
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Are we seriously at a point where Republicans used a word so nobody else can ever use it in the future?
    I mean yes, we let them with the ok sign, a quote from you.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53000060
    You mean the actual, real hate gesture?

    https://www.adl.org/education/refere...y-hand-gesture
    https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/76472...symbol-of-hate
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/u...ite-power.html

    1> It started as a hoax, but it stopped being a hoax when white supremacists started using it for real.
    2> That there's an innocent use for the gesture is not a counter-argument, as the entire point of such gestures is to act as a dog-whistle, and dog-whistles are meant to conceal the intent; they are coded messaging that only show their true meaning for those "in the know". Repurposing a traditional symbol is standard practice. See also the KKK and a burning cross. See also the Nazis and the swastika/hakenkreuz. See also the "Roman salute" the Nazis adopted and the Bellamy salute in the USA. I could go on.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    there is no ""undecided" here, at least none that matter to bother catering to them. it's like the mythical suburban white middle class centrist: there is like 5 of them.
    Depends what you mean. There are a shit load of people who are turned off of the movement because their initial reaction is negative. They can be convinced, and I've done so with people I know. They might already 'be decided' but it's not set in stone. Bad messaging isn't going to help that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    WHOOPS.

    A slogan is a motto that is enduring and tied to a group, representing their purpose or ideals. The goal of a slogan is to convince a target audience to buy a product or service, or believe in something.

    https://www.canto.com/blog/what-is-a-slogan/
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XIapgJCV1r4XSf
    Advertising slogans and protest/political slogans aren't the same thing. Obviously. That you can't tell the difference . . . man.


  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Advertising slogans and protest/political slogans aren't the same thing. Obviously. That you can't tell the difference . . . man.
    Sure buddy . A slogan, be it to sell a product or service or a political message, is the same.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And as I edited in; I'd vastly prefer an honest and open slogan over some marketing-based pablum intended to mislead people into supporting a movement out of ignorance.
    So you'd prefer to lose with your head held high and are also lying about other slogans' effects. It's not misleading to want to save our cities, cut wasteful spending, or support police by relieving them of duties they're not trained for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    So you'd prefer to lose with your head held high, and are also lying about other slogans' effects. It's not misleading to want to save our cities, cut wasteful spending, or support police by relieving them of duties they're not trained for.
    When I was younger, that is what I thought as well. Lose with my head held high. What I did not realize at the time is that I was still losing in the end.

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