Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #221
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    And that's a bad expectation. People have initial reactions to things, including you. We saw that yesterday with the supposed insider trading that was actually about information that had been in the public realm for 17 months. Where was your reservation on saying pelosi belonged in jail?
    Did you also notice that the moment additional information came out, I assessed it, and adjusted my position, even if I still ended up highly critical of the relatively corrupt (if technically legal) state of American governance?

    In exactly the way these people we're talking about don't?

    My continued antagonism in that thread is due to a whole lot of additional context that the correction didn't change, but I did correct myself on that element once you pointed it out, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Why do you get the benefit of the doubt for the cop in the other thread that you formed an opinion on without looking into it, yet people regarding this slogan do not? Why in this scenario is it automatically malice? Honest question, because I actually understand where you were coming from in the other thread, I get not wanting to "doomscroll".
    As above, that I'm willing and actively do adjust my position when I get new information. I kneejerked to a conclusion, and then people like yourself said "hey, actually, check this", and I went "fuck" and amended.

    In this context, if I said "eww, defund the police? But we need police, dude." and then one of you pointed out "it means divesting some duties to better-trained experts", I'd again be saying "welp, got that wrong. Doesn't sound like a bad idea actually."

    That's the difference. My ignorance wasn't "willful", and I really dislike it when I'm wrong because I didn't bother checking my sources properly. There's so much bad news I've gotten sloppier than usual because I don't want to subject myself to this much negative crap all the time. But I'm also not gonna double down on a bad take, just because I don't want to admit it was misinformed.

    I mean yes, we let them with the ok sign, a quote from you.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53000060
    That's a specific gesture that's literally being actively used by hate groups.

    And the context was Kyle Rittenhouse's use of that specific symbol, while hanging out with known white supremacists.

    It wasn't me saying any and all uses of that symbol are automatically white supremacism.

    Don't ignore the context, dude.


  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    if a fucking slogan is enough to keep you from trying to make society better then, fuck off. like, I really don't get this infatuation with comforting people who clearly are so comfortable they can't see how the real world functions.
    Funny, since it seems you can't see how the world functions. Remind of a quote from the movie "The Wind River" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_River_(film)).

    When a young adult is scolded by the main character because he keeps doing shit stuff. The main character, after saying that he also did stupid stuff against the world until he realized that, eventually, the world would win anyway.

  3. #223
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    When I was younger, that is what I thought as well. Lose with my head held high. What I did not realize at the time is that I was still losing in the end.
    In this context, the question is whether we should "lose" honestly by sticking to the actual policies we support and the slogan that accurately describes them, or if we should try to "win" by lying to the public about the goals being pursued.

    Not only is the latter dishonest horseshit that I refuse to do because it's unethical, but if I have to lie about what I believe to get people to support me, I've already lost. So it's a question of losing and maintaining my dignity and ethics, or abandoning both and losing regardless.

    So yeah, I'll stick with holding my head high, rather than debasing myself and what I believe in. It's pretty damning that you think otherwise.


  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In this context, the question is whether we should "lose" honestly by sticking to the actual policies we support and the slogan that accurately describes them, or if we should try to "win" by lying to the public about the goals being pursued.

    Not only is the latter dishonest horseshit that I refuse to do because it's unethical, but if I have to lie about what I believe to get people to support me, I've already lost. So it's a question of losing and maintaining my dignity and ethics, or abandoning both and losing regardless.

    So yeah, I'll stick with holding my head high, rather than debasing myself and what I believe in. It's pretty damning that you think otherwise.
    How is lying if you are using "Reform" instead of defund ? A defunding can be in a reform. Keep fighting the losing battle, it is quite pathetic and entertaining to watch.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    if a fucking slogan is enough to keep you from trying to make society better then fuck off. like, I really don't get this infatuation with comforting people who clearly are so comfortable they can't see how the real world functions.
    We still live in a democracy, and those people vote. When your message tells them that you want to make them less safe, their initial reaction is against you. If your message tells them you want to improve their lives, their initial reaction is for you. It's not an infatuation with 'comforting people who clearly are so comfortable they can't see how the real world functions,' it's understanding that messaging is part of politics, and public favor absolutely matters. It's a garbage slogan, and messaging matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Funny, since it seems you can't see how the world functions. Remind of a quote from the movie "The Wind River" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_River_(film)).

    When a young adult is scolded by the main character because he keeps doing shit stuff. The main character, after saying that he also did stupid stuff against the world until he realized that, eventually, the world would win anyway.
    wow dude, you really think quoting books counts as an argument here? and it makes even less sense when you actually bother to understand what I posted.

    I mean, great job making my point for me, clearly being hung up on slogans means more to you than people dying or being oppressed. precisely because your comfort is more important here.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 04:47 PM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Did you also notice that the moment additional information came out, I assessed it, and adjusted my position, even if I still ended up highly critical of the relatively corrupt (if technically legal) state of American governance?

    In exactly the way these people we're talking about don't?

    My continued antagonism in that thread is due to a whole lot of additional context that the correction didn't change, but I did correct myself on that element once you pointed it out, thanks.
    That information was already out. You just didn't do the analog of:

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You could work out what "Defund the Police" is about in less than a minute's search time on the Internet. Not bothering to and yet still forming an opinion about the movement is not "laziness", it's malice.
    for that topic. That's what I'm pointing out. You're criticizing people for having initial reaction to things without knowing the background, when you have initial reactions to things without knowing the background.

    As above, that I'm willing and actively do adjust my position when I get new information. I kneejerked to a conclusion, and then people like yourself said "hey, actually, check this", and I went "fuck" and amended.

    In this context, if I said "eww, defund the police? But we need police, dude." and then one of you pointed out "it means divesting some duties to better-trained experts", I'd again be saying "welp, got that wrong. Doesn't sound like a bad idea actually."
    And I'm pointing out that we can avoid that first negative reaction in the first place by changing the slogan, and you're sitting here still defending the slogan. Just like you don't change your stance when confronted with new information WRT the slogan, other people do the same with the idea behind the slogan. Initial reactions matter.
    That's the difference. My ignorance wasn't "willful", and I really dislike it when I'm wrong because I didn't bother checking my sources properly. There's so much bad news I've gotten sloppier than usual because I don't want to subject myself to this much negative crap all the time. But I'm also not gonna double down on a bad take, just because I don't want to admit it was misinformed.
    Your ignorance on how bad this slogan is willful at this point. I want the movement to succeed. I hate the slogan. Slogans shouldn't make people uncomfortable if you're trying to convince them. Again, I hate starting so far behind in an argument because of a stupid slogan. I don't understand why you want to handicap both yourself in any argument about this and the movement itself in the eyes of the public at large.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    wow dude, you really think quoting books counts as an argument here? and it makes even less sense when you actually bother to understand what I posted.

    I mean, great job making my point for me, clearly being hung up on slogans means more to you than people dying or being oppressed. precisely because your comfort is more important here.
    My security and the security of my family matters to me, yes, I know, shocking.

    And I support a "more effective" Police with the right person for the right job, but you won't convince people with a slogan like "Defund the Police", period.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    I mean, great job making my point for me, clearly being hung up on slogans means more to you than people dying or being oppressed. precisely because your comfort is more important here.
    You're arguing for pragmatism, and then immediately contradicting yourself. If you want people to stop dying and being oppressed, you need to be able to effect change. Slogans and messaging matter in a democracy unless you're just going to try for civil war. If that's your goal, I'm just going to treat you like I treat kokulums. It's not about comfort, it's about wanting effective messaging that isn't self-defeating so we can actually get the change that's needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  10. #230
    Tony Blair has a good punch-line https://www.newstatesman.com/labour-...abour-will-die
    “Defund the police” may be the left’s most damaging political slogan since “the dictatorship of the proletariat”.
    But generally 'defund the police' hasn't spread across the globe, and it has faded in the US as well, as even 'the squad' sees it as counter-productive and have changed the message. Instead we see similar slogans like 'defund ICE' and 'defund hate'; which I assume means a goal of a modest reduction in funding for ICE and hate. /s

  11. #231
    wow you mean to tell me the feckless liberals of the Democrats are whiffing on a political issue they can win on? is it a day that ends with Y?

    all this discussion has told me is liberals and conservatives are pretty much identical when it comes to maintaining their comfort over a just society.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 05:25 PM.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As above, that I'm willing and actively do adjust my position when I get new information. I kneejerked to a conclusion, and then people like yourself said "hey, actually, check this", and I went "fuck" and amended.

    In this context, if I said "eww, defund the police? But we need police, dude." and then one of you pointed out "it means divesting some duties to better-trained experts", I'd again be saying "welp, got that wrong. Doesn't sound like a bad idea actually."

    That's the difference. My ignorance wasn't "willful", and I really dislike it when I'm wrong because I didn't bother checking my sources properly. There's so much bad news I've gotten sloppier than usual because I don't want to subject myself to this much negative crap all the time. But I'm also not gonna double down on a bad take, just because I don't want to admit it was misinformed.
    That is the thing, when you actually explain what defund movement means a lot of people are actually behind a lot of what it wants to do. That is why it is a bad slogan imo. A lot of people even including some republicans will get behind reform as even some of them will agree it is needed. Using more effective language gets the first foot through the door so you start in a better position. It gets people talking about what parts of the force they think should be reformed and how. At least from what I have seen you do not get that from Defund.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's a specific gesture that's literally being actively used by hate groups.

    And the context was Kyle Rittenhouse's use of that specific symbol, while hanging out with known white supremacists.

    It wasn't me saying any and all uses of that symbol are automatically white supremacism.

    Don't ignore the context, dude.
    If it came across as me accusing you of that it was not my intention, I was talking more of it does seem we are at the point of letting other people co-op symbols and words. I am personally against letting them, and fighting back against it(when used for negative purposes). All it does is embolden them and gives them power that they should never have.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    if a fucking slogan is enough to keep you from trying to make society better then, fuck off. like, I really don't get this infatuation with comforting people who clearly are so comfortable they can't see how the real world functions.
    That would be a you problem. Can you explain how even in the worse most marginalized neighborhoods of american, all those anti police slogans have very low approval? Is it everyone thats living the real world or only you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    wow you mean to tell me the feckless liberals of the Democrats are whiffing on a political issue they can win on? is it a day that ends with Y?

    all this discussion has told me is liberals and conservatives are pretty much identical when it comes to maintaining their comfort over a just society.
    No, its that these shit dont poll as popular to voters lol. It sucks we live in democracies, even democrat cant run on shit with 20% approval in their district. Welcome to the real fucking world.

  14. #234
    again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.


    but of course my time here has only highlighted that not only are those that benefit the most from the status quo fight the hardest to maintain it, they have also convinced other people who do not in fact benefit from the current paradigm that it's preferable. so, this isn't the surprise to me you seem to think it is. it's only confirmation of how dire the situation really is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    notice this thread is about what to do about police funding. not the slogan itself. but of course people who are not interested in dealing with the issue still think they have opinions people are the least bit interested in hearing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, we already have a huge thread about police brutality that's frequently updated and ya'll are out here pretending it's just in the crazy lefties heads that something needs to change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 07:31 PM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.


    but of course my time here has only highlighted that not only are those that benefit the most from the status quo fight the hardest to maintain it, they have also convinced other people who do not in fact benefit from the current paradigm that it's preferable. so, this isn't the surprise to me you seem to think it is. it's only confirmation of how dire the situation really is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    notice this thread is about what to do about police funding. not the slogan itself. but of course people who are not interested in dealing with the issue still think they have opinions people are the least bit interested in hearing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, we already have a huge thread about police brutality that's frequently updated and ya'll are out here pretending it's just in the crazy lefties heads that something needs to change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    Cool, now answer the questions instead of grand standing LARP. Why, even in some of the most marginalized area and groups, are all these slogans and cause like defunding the police or abolishing the police low 20% supports? Can you explain why without trying to make a fake reality. Can you explain why blm had and still had a decent high support, but none of the police stuff. Explain it without again making a fake reality.

    If
    -1 its needed
    -2 the support is not there.

    Why? There must be some reason in the real world why needed changes dont get the support. Give me your analysis of why.

    My analysis is simple. The changes are needed, but even among the most marginalized people the idea of no polices or less polices sounds very, very bad. Its where you have to actually work if you want changes. Thats the reality you live in. Not internet forums and Twitter.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-18 at 08:30 PM.

  16. #236
    making a fake reality in this case to you people is merely the desire to improve the world instead of sitting behind your 10 year membership tag telling other people what is or isn't the real world.

    I can go on about how propaganda works but then again I'd rather talk about what to do about police funding than your frankly sad need to keep talking about slogans.

    because let's be honest: any slogan can be made to look good or bad regardless of it's intentions. that's kind of the point, isn't it? to rub your hands over definitions and polling. not to actually tackle why we should defund the police. because you don't actually want to do anything about how the police or society for that matter should operate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    so, in conclusion: unless you want to talk about what to do to improve society then do me a favor and don't bother responding.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 08:38 PM.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    As previously stated that isn't due to the police having too much money; the equipment is available for free (shipping and handling not included) as part of 1033 program.

    That program was scaled back by Obama and then increased again by Trump - and then there's something new from Biden; that's what happen when you cite articles from 2014.

    Note that it isn't 'tanks' - the military has some restrictions; they are technically 'tracked armored vehicles' - and Obama's executive order meant that 100+ armored tracked vehicles were sent back (and similar number of grenade launchers from before 1999 - the military then improved their standards so they are no longer part of the program, and 1,000+ bayonets; which they claim are used as knifes to cut seat-belts, which makes more sense than the US police charging trenches with bayonets). The program allegedly also includes military grade chairs and computers.

  18. #238
    why the fuck do you think I care about who is giving the cops tanks?

    why do they need military equipment if the intention is not to treat American citizen like their foreign combatants? because that to me seems to be exactly the intention, to treat American citizens like foreign combatants. so when they get the bold idea to IDK.... protest, they can come in and squash it as quickly and brutally as possible.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 08:47 PM.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    making a fake reality in this case to you people is merely the desire to improve the world instead of sitting behind your 10 year membership tag telling other people what is or isn't the real world.

    I can go on about how propaganda works but then again I'd rather talk about what to do about police funding than your frankly sad need to keep talking about slogans.

    because let's be honest: any slogan can be made to look good or bad regardless of it's intentions. that's kind of the point, isn't it? to rub your hands over definitions and polling. not to actually tackle why we should defund the police. because you don't actually want to do anything about how the police or society for that matter should operate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    so, in conclusion: unless you want to talk about what to do to improve society then do me a favor and don't bother responding.
    So you cant answer the question got it. Thats how you accomplish no change, but hey you look correct on twitter well sometimes. You arent doing shit either, infact if people did like you, even less would get done. You think the voter population dont need to be convinced of anything. All you care about is talking about it. Which is literally step -1 of any changes. We already know why polices need changes, but its not happening because even the people that would need it the fucking most, seems to not agree with those changes. SO THERE IS THE ISSUE SOMEONE THAT ONLY TALKS ABOUT SHIT LIKE YOU DONT SEEMS TO GET. How do you get people to actually support and vote for it. You are literally not understanding the first fucking step. Why is it not supported, its not happening before its supported. So why do you not want to get it supported first? Nobody gives a shit about talking about it, HOW DO YOU DO IT.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-18 at 08:51 PM.

  20. #240
    wow, the people who sure love to talk about how pointless open discussions are sure love to get the last word in either way. almost like ya'll are bunch of hypocrites.

    regardless I know well enough the monumental task needed to get to the point where we can phase cops out of existence. but why should I waste my time and effort on that as some people so bluntly put it.

    again, why are you even bothering to respond at all if this is all you can come up with.

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