Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

[minteK917]

wow, the people who sure love to talk about how pointless open discussions are sure love to get the last word in either way. almost like ya'll are bunch of hypocrites.

regardless I know well enough the monumental task needed to get to the point where we can phase cops out of exitance. but why should I waste my time and effort on that as some people so bluntly put it.

again, why are you even bothering to respond at all if this is all you can come up with.

So the answer is you dont know, you dont care. But you wanna talk about it. Nice one.

[uuuhname]

ending the war on drugs
raising the minimum wage to 25$
free healthcare
free mental healthcare
free childcare services
gun control


all of these things I am constantly told are pie in the sky goals when it comes time to debate what to do about improving society. it's really not that hard to accomplish all of these things, unless you of course are a capitalist and/or you just hate humans being alive and happy.

[Endus]

That would be a you problem. Can you explain how even in the worse most marginalized neighborhoods of american, all those anti police slogans have very low approval? Is it everyone thats living the real world or only you?

Frankly, because Americans are one of the most-propagandized-to nations in the world. On the same scale as Russia or China. And a significant chunk of that is in getting Americans to submit to authority and blindly abide by police orders, no matter how abusive. The whole "cops are heroes" stuff, all the copaganda on TV (not all cop shows, just, like, most), the notion of "protect and serve" that's in the public consciousness while simultaneously police departments have pursued all the way up to SCOTUS lawsuits where they established they had no obligation to either protect or serve, in any sense whatsoever. And so on.

Also, popularity only speaks to how likely such policies would be to actually be useful as a platform position for a politician. Their popularity has nothing to do with their inherent value and validity as an option. A lack of popularity is not an argument for abandoning the movement. It's an argument for better-informing the populace about what it's really about.

Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.

And sure; Americans may just decide they like their abusive and overbearing police state and throwing millions of dollars at police departments so hundreds of officers can kick back and take an hour's break while an active shooter continues killing children right next door. It's a democracy, and you sure can choose to maintain the status quo. But that doesn't justify that decision. Yes, Americans might continue shooting themselves in the foot and bragging about how awesome their footholes are, but that'll continue to be really, really dumb.

[Ripster42]

again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.

And all we get from you is trashing your best bet for solutions to the problems you claim to care about and you know this to be the case. Spare us the hypocritical self-righteous indignation.

[uuuhname]

Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.

it is when you have no real argument, which explains 2/3rd's of this thread.

or rather the person who makes asinine comments about how talking about issues online doesn't accomplish things.

like no shit, sherlock. got a real argument?

[PACOX]

I am not paid, I am not in marketing, yet I produced a way better slogan in like 5 min : "Reform the police".

All you are doing is proving that people are talking out their ass when they say the 'slogan is the problem'. It's just that simple to come up with something, so if the slogan is the only problem then just say something else.

General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal

[uuuhname]

General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal

ooofers, that's going in the finger snapping file.

[minteK917]

Frankly, because Americans are one of the most-propagandized-to nations in the world. On the same scale as Russia or China. And a significant chunk of that is in getting Americans to submit to authority and blindly abide by police orders, no matter how abusive. The whole "cops are heroes" stuff, all the copaganda on TV (not all cop shows, just, like, most), the notion of "protect and serve" that's in the public consciousness while simultaneously police departments have pursued all the way up to SCOTUS lawsuits where they established they had no obligation to either protect or serve, in any sense whatsoever. And so on.

Also, popularity only speaks to how likely such policies would be to actually be useful as a platform position for a politician. Their popularity has nothing to do with their inherent value and validity as an option. A lack of popularity is not an argument for abandoning the movement. It's an argument for better-informing the populace about what it's really about.

Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.

And sure; Americans may just decide they like their abusive and overbearing police state and throwing millions of dollars at police departments so hundreds of officers can kick back and take an hour's break while an active shooter continues killing children right next door. It's a democracy, and you sure can choose to maintain the status quo. But that doesn't justify that decision. Yes, Americans might continue shooting themselves in the foot and bragging about how awesome their footholes are, but that'll continue to be really, really dumb.

Then how the fuck do you expect to fix it? I didnt expect you to also be in that dumb group that rather speak about shit instead of finding ways to somehow expedient some changes, even if minimal. I usually agree with almost anything with you Endus, but not this crap idea. Oh yeah cool mabye lets talk more about the abolition of police that might or might not happen by 2100 when it comes to current political parties. Their popularity has absolutely 100% to do with their validity as an option, because you sadly live in the real world and right now. If something has a chance to happen you do it, even if its not the change you wanted, if its better, its still fucking better. Look if you want to scream ACAB and Abolish and go crazy in your private life thats fine. But stop complaining that your politicians and public personality dont partake in it. Dont call them traitor, dont call them spinless. They dont because they dont have the luxury of being a LARPer. They have to talk about what they can do RIGHT NOW.

[Endus]

it is when you have no real argument, which explains 2/3rd's of this thread.

or rather the person who makes asinine comments about how talking about issues online doesn't accomplish things.

like no shit, sherlock. got a real argument?

It really feels like every climate change thread ever when people start saying things like "you can't say global warming and climate change; you need to pick one. You scientists are so inconsistent and can't keep your story straight".

Those people don't have an argument. They just have willful ignorance. There's nothing you could ever tell them that will ever change their minds, and it's a waste of everyone's time and effort trying.

And it really bothers me how many people are suggesting lying to others about your motives and intent because the lie is more appealing than the truth.

[minteK917]

General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal

All those shit are virtue signals lol. None of these dumb or less dumb slogan happens wth no support. Until then its like uuhname said. People like to TALK ABOUT IT. CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT IT. Yeah cool. Talk away then.

[Forogil]

why the fuck do you think I care about who is giving the cops tanks?

People who try to solve the problem care.

You are clearly not in that group, and think that funding-changes are relevant for something available free of charge.

[Specialka]

All you are doing is proving that people are talking out their ass when they say the 'slogan is the problem'. It's just that simple to come up with something, so if the slogan is the only problem then just say something else.

General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal

yeah, that is usually the left leaning crowd that are like this.

[minteK917]

It really feels like every climate change thread ever when people start saying things like "you can't say global warming and climate change; you need to pick one. You scientists are so inconsistent and can't keep your story straight".

Those people don't have an argument. They just have willful ignorance. There's nothing you could ever tell them that will ever change their minds, and it's a waste of everyone's time and effort trying.

And it really bothers me how many people are suggesting lying to others about your motives and intent because the lie is more appealing than the truth.

Yeah and its another cause doing fucking great. Is there another cause doing fucking great you wanna mention lol. To be honest i think what damaged global warming more was pushing cataclysmic stuff prediction in the early 2000. People care for it seems to have taken such a spin downward, pretty sure human will only care about global warming once its to the point where we have to live indoor all the time, but then its too late anyway. So im expecting to have to live indoor before my death.

[uuuhname]

People who try to solve the problem care.

You are clearly not in that group, and think that funding-changes are relevant for something available free of charge.

again, explain why cops need tanks. either answer that question or don't bother responding.

[Endus]

Then how the fuck do you expect to fix it? I didnt expect you to also be in that dumb group that rather speak about shit instead of finding ways to somehow expedient some changes, even if minimal.

Haven't done a lot of work with governments, have you?

You don't need to convince voters of shit. The people you spend your time talking to are the elected representatives, who (generally), have a bit more focus and understanding. You speak to, in this case, police advisory councils in local municipalities and seek to convince them to pursue defunding directly.

I've done most of the advocacy I've been part of with municipal or regional governments, and while we do spend time talking to the average citizen, it isn't as advocates, it's to determine what the needs and interests of the local interest groups are, from their own mouths, rather than presuming. The advocacy goes to the government, to write policy to address those needs and concerns.

I've had a hell of a lot more influence, to the point of writing regional policy directly, as an advocate and analyst than any set of voters has ever had.

If you convince your city government of the value of defunding their PD, those Councillors and the Mayor can just . . . go ahead and pass those new policies through and get to work. They don't need to talk to the public at all (though they probably will, same as I mentioned above). It isn't something that needs to be voted on at all.

The idea that the only way anything gets done is by voting is just really, really false, and whoever's sold you on that nonsense was doing their damndest to render you politically irrelevant.

Get involved, start talking to decision-makers, and that's how anything meaningful gets done.

Wasting all your time trying to get votes is wasting everyone's time and why nothing ever gets done in the USA these days.

[minteK917]

again, explain why cops need tanks. either answer that question or don't bother responding.

They dont and guess what since those are given. Even defunded they would get that tank. So mabye, theres another problem you need to tackle other then fund. JUST MABYE.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't done a lot of work with governments, have you?

You don't need to convince voters of shit. The people you spend your time talking to are the elected representatives, who (generally), have a bit more focus and understanding. You speak to, in this case, police advisory councils in local municipalities and seek to convince them to pursue defunding directly.

I've done most of the advocacy I've been part of with municipal or regional governments, and while we do spend time talking to the average citizen, it isn't as advocates, it's to determine what the needs and interests of the local interest groups are, from their own mouths, rather than presuming. The advocacy goes to the government, to write policy to address those needs and concerns.

I've had a hell of a lot more influence, to the point of writing regional policy directly, as an advocate and analyst than any set of voters has ever had.

If you convince your city government of the value of defunding their PD, those Councillors and the Mayor can just . . . go ahead and pass those new policies through and get to work. They don't need to talk to the public at all (though they probably will, same as I mentioned above). It isn't something that needs to be voted on at all.

The idea that the only way anything gets done is by voting is just really, really false, and whoever's sold you on that nonsense was doing their damndest to render you politically irrelevant.

Get involved, start talking to decision-makers, and that's how anything meaningful gets done.

Wasting all your time trying to get votes is wasting everyone's time and why nothing ever gets done in the USA these days.

If there is 20% municipal support for defunding your PD. Its not happening even if theres 20 Endus working with the mayor saying so. Just mean there will be a new mayor next cycle. The only reason anything you talk about this big to a Mayor gets done, is that they can feel this is expedient. Nobody said changes needed votes. It needs politicians that can feel this is popular enough for them to make the change and keep it changed. If it was as easy as just changing the mind of a handful of person. The police would be gone already lol.

[Endus]

Yeah and its another cause doing fucking great. Is there another cause doing fucking great you wanna mention lol.

What the heck are you even talking about?

We're making pretty significant inroads with climate change adaptation, dude. Pretty much every nation is already adjusting and making plans to handle the major impacts. Pretty much the only nation with any significant level of climate change denial is the USA. Also the same nation with the only significant level of flat-eartherism, or young-Earth creationism, or a whole passel of other incredibly willfully ignorant bits of nonsense.

You're pushing denialist rhetoric right here, and you don't even realize it.

[uuuhname]

"they would still get the tank anyway, so they get the tank, dummy, haven't you considered another angle!?"

wow, you mean something has to be done about the government giving the cops tanks? you mean another subject you have no interest in engaging with honestly? good to know, peanut.

- - - Updated - - -

You're pushing denialist rhetoric right here, and you don't even realize it.

no, they know exactly what they're doing.

[Endus]

If there is 20% municipal support for defunding your PD. Its not happening even if theres 20 Endus working with the mayor saying so. Just mean there will be a new mayor next cycle. The only reason anything you talk about this big to a Mayor gets done, is that they can feel this is expedient. Nobody said changes needed votes. It needs politicians that can feel this is popular enough for them to make the change and keep it changed.

You're back to focusing entirely on popular support, and that's just not how policy's written, dude. Anywhere.

[minteK917]

You're back to focusing entirely on popular support, and that's just not how policy's written, dude. Anywhere.

Well tell me when you delete the police, since its that easy. Ill be waiting. That you think you only need to convince politicians is hell of funny thought.