Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #321
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    People turned away from the idea because the slogan was vague enough to be exploited by bad faith media and political narratives (like certain people claiming the rise in crime during 2021 was a result of police defunding that largely didn't happen), not because of any results based decision making. Once again, you're confusing marketing for substance.
    To make a comparison, it's not unlike the hit-job that's been done by McCarthyists for the last 70 years over the world "socialism", where any hint of the word was treated as a Soviet con job seeking to poison American thinking or some equivalently malevolent malarkey.

    When the reality is that literally any business or industry that's worker-owned and worker-run is "socialist" in design.

    Salvaging that word from those decades of propaganda is an effort that's really only starting to have effect the last decade or so, in the USA. It's still a struggle to get people to stop seeing propaganda caricatures or label an avowed socialist a Stalin-lover or the like. But ground's being made up.

    Not by abandoning the term. But through constant repetition to the shared audience about how malicious and ignorant the McCarthyist wharrgarble is. This isn't remotely a new problem; see my sig.

    The McCarthyist propaganda was the marketing. The reality of socialist theory is the substance. Realities like Canada's universal healthcare networks, a system pioneered by Tommy Douglas, a founder of the New Democratic Party here in Canada and one of the most beloved political figures in our history. And a man who was a self-avowed Democratic Socialist his entire political career, and a position he ran on consistently.


  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Ignoring your whining about bias when we're discussing the cited facts in the article - the cuts were by 11 and 14% respectively for the Seattle and Minneapolis Police Departments, which is well in line with precedented municipal budget cuts.
    Yet it was claimed as a victory by Black Visions Collective back then; despite later attempts at rewriting history.

    And to first claim it was a victory and major change, and when the alleged consequences don't show claim that 'we didn't actually change anything' is just dishonest.

    And if you don't want to be called out for your bias - stop linking to 'The Real News', 'Truth Social', and similar sources whose very name ooze bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You've also not demonstrated what "bad policies" these cuts led to or that these "bad policies" were the result of what the reformists were asking for.
    I believe it is pretty clear that it didn't bring the alleged benefits. Note that even if the police funding didn't decrease that significantly - the policing decreased, as police officers left their job or took medical leave for PTSD. That residents sued the city for the lack of police is also a clear indication of a problem.

    Even though not be a direct consequence of the budget changes, citizens arming themselves and remaining police officers being less proactive (both have been cited as reasons for the increase in violence in Minneapolis) are still consequences of the movement - and should have been foreseen.

    Or in summary: it's on the proponents of 'defund the police' to show that their policies work; claiming that we didn't actually implement the policies that time, the bad consequences were just due to other factors, etc is rightly perceived as just bull-shit

  3. #323
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I believe it is pretty clear that it didn't bring the alleged benefits. Note that even if the police funding didn't decrease that significantly - the policing decreased, as police officers left their job or took medical leave for PTSD. That residents sued the city for the lack of police is also a clear indication of a problem.

    Even though not be a direct consequence of the budget changes, citizens arming themselves and remaining police officers being less proactive (both have been cited as reasons for the increase in violence in Minneapolis) are still consequences of the movement - and should have been foreseen.

    Or in summary: it's on the proponents of 'defund the police' to show that their policies work; claiming that we didn't actually implement the policies that time, the bad consequences were just due to other factors, etc is rightly perceived as just bull-shit
    Oh, okay; so not only are you admitting that your complaint about "defund the police led to bad policies" was nonsense, you're also admitting that your problem is the fact police reform was being demanded at all.
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  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Oh, okay; so not only are you admitting that your complaint about "defund the police led to bad policies" was nonsense, you're also admitting that your problem is the fact police reform was being demanded at all.
    How about actually reading and responding to the texts? All those roll-eyes might be bad for your reading.

    The problem with 'police reform' is that it can mean lots of different things, so the idea would be to check whether the specific police reforms worked or not. That's why 'defund' is a bad slogan - it doesn't highlight what reforms are needed. And there seems to be a direct and indirect link between lack of police officers and some of problems.

  5. #325
    The problem with the "defunding" is it ties into a lot of the McCarthyism that has been around for 70 years as stated here. There is clearly a widespread problem, and that's been well known long before Uvalde. But defunding assumes the only answers are polar - like either we let broken police forces operate as-is, or we completely get rid of them.

    Having police I think is necessary, and most would agree there. That's also why the term defunding has been politicized so much. The difficult problem is how to root out the problem police and departments, especially in an industry where nepotism is very deeply rooted. Far too many cops on the job tend to get a us vs them mentality over time with the public, where "blue" (i.e. the police) takes priority over the public they are sworn to protect. That's tragically what we saw in Uvalde too.

    The biggest problem is lack of accountability. And departments like to respond with this defund argument themselves, like if you don't like it what if we weren't here at all, which is a juvenile response. So this defund argument is being used as their get out of jail free card when they fail. No on defunding, which wasn't ever really going to happen anyway, but definitely yes some sort of reform of policing on a national level needs to take place. Because otherwise accountability and reform will never happen, they'll just continue to go straight to this McCarthy "defund" argument to deflect.

  6. #326
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And if you don't want to be called out for your bias - stop linking to 'The Real News', 'Truth Social', and similar sources whose very name ooze bias.
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/real-news-network/

    Left bias (which has to do with framing)
    High factual reporting (which is what you're trying to imply should be lower, due to being "biased")

    Can't even compare them to Truth Social, which isn't a news media source. If you could agree to swap in OANN, for instance, though;

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/one-a...-news-network/

    Far-right bias, low factual reporting.

    Tip: It's the "factual reporting" that actually matters. "Bias" here just translates to framing, not accuracy or validity. I'm 100% on the side of discarding sources that make a habit of misrepresenting the facts; anything with a "mixed" rating or less on MBFC should be given a hairy eyeball. But a "high factual reporting" should at least be given a good-faith consideration, otherwise you're kneejerking based on ideological agreement rather than factual accuracy.

    Or in summary: it's on the proponents of 'defund the police' to show that their policies work; claiming that we didn't actually implement the policies that time, the bad consequences were just due to other factors, etc is rightly perceived as just bull-shit


    We can just point at other nations which don't have the same policing issues as the USA and which have already separated (or more properly; never originally combined) those duties from policing.

    That evidence has always been there and has always been pointed at, so I don't know why you're claiming otherwise.


  7. #327
    Pandaren Monk wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The problem with 'police reform' is that it can mean lots of different things, so the idea would be to check whether the specific police reforms worked or not. That's why 'defund' is a bad slogan - it doesn't highlight what reforms are needed. And there seems to be a direct and indirect link between lack of police officers and some of problems.
    In your opinion, what percentage of a city's budget should be allocated to police departments?

  8. #328
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    In your opinion, what percentage of a city's budget should be allocated to police departments?
    That is WAY too broad of a question. And I think you are well aware of how obtuse it is.
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    In your opinion, what percentage of a city's budget should be allocated to police departments?
    Simply depends on the city. Some cities will need to spend less as their cities are safer and other cities will have to spend more.

  10. #330
    Pandaren Monk wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    That is WAY too broad of a question. And I think you are well aware of how obtuse it is.
    That's the crux of the issue though. Do you believe any city should spend over 50% of their budget on police? Milwaukee, WI for example spent 58% of their budget just on police in 2020. Is this a good use of their budget?

  11. #331
    oh hey, look at that, here's something specific we can do about police reform.


  12. #332
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    oh hey, look at that, here's something specific we can do about police reform.
    Something something tradition, wild west, and it's so cool you guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  13. #333
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    oh hey, look at that, here's something specific we can do about police reform.

    [video=youtu/video]
    If you seen Uvalde I think it's pretty fucking clear WE ALREADY DON'T HAVE SHERIFFS!


    We have over paid bully's in uniform that protect mostly a corrupt institution.

    We had a bunch of cops stand around one of them while his wife was being slaughtered in a classroom.


    Yes, yes I know he went in went out and "They took his gun and wouldn't let him back in" he left his wife to fucking die.
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  14. #334
    North Carolina town to be without full-time police after all officers resign

    The town of Kenly, N.C., will soon be without full-time police officers. All of the department’s officers have announced their intentions to quit — and now, residents have a lot of questions about what led to the resignations.

    The Johnston County Sheriff’s Office will respond to calls in Kenly so neighbors aren’t just left to fend for themselves.

    “I will assign deputies to patrol the streets to ensure public safety if and when needed,” said Sheriff Steve Bizzell.

    But business owners have concerns about relying on a county-wide police team, saying they want the town council to act immediately to try to keep the police force.

    ------
    Seems to me that the whole "defund police" spiel is missing an opportunity here.

  15. #335
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    What does that story have to do with defund the police?

    Also Biden is trying to give police even more money.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-07-23 at 12:55 AM.

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  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    What does that story have to do with defund the police?
    A response to those that think Uvalde story was relevant here.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    That's the crux of the issue though. Do you believe any city should spend over 50% of their budget on police? Milwaukee, WI for example spent 58% of their budget just on police in 2020. Is this a good use of their budget?
    It depends on whether that is true and what the city is responsible for

    Different regions (especially in different countries) have split responsibilities in different ways for policing, education, and health-care so it's too different to say anything in particular; and one of them can part of city budget or not the other which means any comparison is just too messy. And it can also be more complicated than just part of it or not. It may make sense to have those responsibilities funded by larger regions (even federally) to even out disparities.

    Specifically for Milwaukee, WI it seems that the statement is wrong both in specifics and numbers.

    https://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibr...020Budget2.pdf has the police department (297M$) of a bit below 50% (not 58%) of the General Fund under City Council control (697M$). That means it is about 25% of the budget controlled by the City Council (1,118M$) - but the education budget is outside the control of the City Council and thus not included in the figures (it may also be about 1 billion $, meaning that the police shrinks to about 13% of the city budget in that sense).

    However, it may still be a bit too high - and the problem here is that the Wisconsin is a mess in terms of taxes, and as a consequence Milwaukee has had to cut expenditure a lot (likely too much) but not cut the police as much as everything else (for various reasons). Thus focusing on how big a percentage the police is of a specific budget part misses the actual problem: Milwaukee City is underfunded.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You haven't been listening.

    The points are that it is unpopular (and pushing through unpopular issues is problematic - and has failed in multiple cities), but also that it is based on a bad analysis - the US police force is actually smaller per capita than in many other countries, the military equipment is free of charge so not a sign of overfunding, and alternatives will take time to take effect so redirecting police funds to them will in the short run create a worse situation - which will backfire, and then those programs will be terminated creating a bigger mess.
    Does the military equipment require upkeep? Does it require storage space? If so, it's not free. If so, it's a waste of money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Does the military equipment require upkeep? Does it require storage space? If so, it's not free. If so, it's a waste of money.
    Yes, there are obvious costs associated with it but the point is that it isn't that costly.

    And as previously stated there are different forms of military equipment - chairs and computers from the military require storage and upkeep, but may still be good use. Using bayonets as knifes may be ok; using military small arms may be ok in the US due to prevalence of similar weapons among criminals - whereas armored tracked vehicles seems less clear; unless the situation is really really bad.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Does the military equipment require upkeep? Does it require storage space? If so, it's not free. If so, it's a waste of money.
    Ukraine says "we'll gladly take it all off your hands!"

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