Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #61
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unlimited Power View Post
    The very origin of the police is a force to protect the interests of the rich.
    Indeed, We should all start calling them Pinkertons
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  2. #62
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Agreed. A slogan should ideally be something that many outside the core group can easily agree with, and also highlight the actual issue.

    'Defund the police' fails on both fronts, as it doesn't attract others (well, except libertarians) and the problem with the police in the US isn't necessarily that they have too much money, and are too good at what they do. The reason the police has gotten army gear isn't that they are as heavily funded as the military but that it is cheap surplus.

    If the idea is to hire social workers instead of police, the reality is that such measure are will likely take time to take effect so you would have to plan to fund both the social workers and the police at least during a transition period.
    Neither of those are legitimate concerns. The first misses the entire point of the movement in what I assume must be intentional bad faith, because literally any amount of time spent looking into it would have shown that's not what people are saying.

    And the second, literally nobody argues that these reforms could be immediate and effortless. But delaying the start point only serves to delay the final end point, too. It's an argument used to delay and deflect, and also thus not presented as a good-faith criticism.

    You're making my point for me.


  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Indeed, We should all start calling them Pinkertons
    LMAO it's hilarious how accurate this is, you got me onboard!

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Agreed. A slogan should ideally be something that many outside the core group can easily agree with, and also highlight the actual issue.

    'Defund the police' fails on both fronts, as it doesn't attract others (well, except libertarians) and the problem with the police in the US isn't necessarily that they have too much money, and are too good at what they do. The reason the police has gotten army gear isn't that they are as heavily funded as the military but that it is cheap surplus.

    If the idea is to hire social workers instead of police, the reality is that such measure are will likely take time to take effect so you would have to plan to fund both the social workers and the police at least during a transition period.

    It's like finding that the problem with health-care in the US it that too many rely on emergency services for health-care (due to lack of cheap non-emergency health-care and the care is not really adequate) and that the health-care would be better if there were cheap and available non-emergency health-care and then create the slogan 'Defund the Emergency Ward'.

    And it seemed that most initiatives didn't think this through, but just seemed to have the idea of first defund the police and then figure out how to solve the problem, and it's certainly not helped by the presence of actual police abolition activists.


    It's not only the average voters, but some of the voted as well!
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/07/u...day/index.html

    They didn't follow through, it seems they failed in amending the charter, and allegedly the ones proposing it were defeated in new elections.

    That's the consequence of having bad slogans. I'm not sure if people are genuinely that stupid, or they deliberately set out to fail.
    Besides it being a bad slogan, even minorities don't want to defund the police.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ack-crime.html
    White respondents were slightly more likely to choose police reform than public safety. But Black respondents named public safety as their top concern, and they ranked police reform last. White residents opposed defunding the police, but Black residents rejected it even more decisively.
    https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...s%20052321.pdf
    When the majority of even minorities is against the movement, then it is a losing issue

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Besides it being a bad slogan, even minorities don't want to defund the police.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ack-crime.html

    https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...s%20052321.pdf
    When the majority of even minorities is against the movement, then it is a losing issue
    wow, who knew propaganda meant to dilute the message could be so effective. not that opinion polls matter one fucking iota when police reform is very necessary regardless of your feelings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    The slogans that had high approval was Black Lives Metter. Defund the police, Abolish the police and All cops are bastard, popularity were and still are all in the dumpster, should never have been used and it should be obvious why they get no support even if once you explain that the slogan doesent mean what it says it makes sense, you are already in trouble.
    facts don't care about your feelings. either you are in favor of police reform or you're not. pick a side and maybe learn to deal with people being passionate about things they care about.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Neither of those are legitimate concerns. The first misses the entire point of the movement in what I assume must be intentional bad faith, because literally any amount of time spent looking into it would have shown that's not what people are saying.
    A bad slogan mean that people spend ZERO time on looking into it.
    That's the reality.

    And the third issue is that there's no coherent uniting theme behind the slogan; some talk about reforms - some say reforms don't work and abolishing the police is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And the second, literally nobody argues that these reforms could be immediate and effortless. But delaying the start point only serves to delay the final end point, too. It's an argument used to delay and deflect, and also thus not presented as a good-faith criticism.
    WHOOOOOSH!

    The point is that if done right you would have to start with having the cost of extra social workers (or improved schools or ...) in addition to the police - not instead of. Thus you don't 'defund' anything at the start.

    You're making my point for me.

  7. #67
    boy, sure is a lot of hand wringing over slogans and not any effort put into why we should do police reform, kinda sus bro.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    wow, who knew propaganda meant to dilute the message could be so effective. not that opinion polls matter one fucking iota when police reform is very necessary regardless of your feelings.
    As I have stated before on this site I am 100% for police reform. I want more accountability, I want a shit load more training, closer to that of what some of the EU countries have(around 3 years). I also want higher standards. 6 months training is absolutely not enough time to train police properly with the amount of stuff the US requires them to do. I am also all for the mental health professionals to help with tasks that they would be far better showing up to.

  9. #69
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    A bad slogan mean that people spend ZERO time on looking into it.
    That's the reality.
    The willfully ignorant spend zero time looking into it.

    And like I said; that's a bubble that lines up perfectly with the "actively malicious" bubble, in practice.

    And the third issue is that there's no coherent uniting theme behind the slogan; some talk about reforms - some say reforms don't work and abolishing the police is needed.
    Yeah, not a requirement for any movement in history, you're just making stuff up to try and defuse a progressive movement.

    There wasn't full agreement on things during the Civil Rights movement in the '50s and '60s, and some pretty deep divides on some things. Didn't mean there wasn't a uniting theme.

    And in the same framing, Defund the Police has at least as concrete a theme as the Civil Rights movement. Same applies to Black Lives Matter, too.


    WHOOOOOSH!

    The point is that if done right you would have to start with having the cost of extra social workers (or improved schools or ...) in addition to the police - not instead of. Thus you don't 'defund' anything at the start.

    You're making my point for me.
    Really not, because here, you're just straight-up lying about the Defund movement. Why would I entertain intentionally dishonest nonsense like this as a valid argument?

    Nothing in the "Defund" movement was about reducing public spending overall. Stop lying about shit, dude.


  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    As I have stated before on this site I am 100% for police reform. I want more accountability, I want a shit load more training, closer to that of what some of the EU countries have(around 3 years). I also want higher standards. 6 months training is absolutely not enough time to train police properly with the amount of stuff the US requires them to do. I am also all for the mental health professionals to help with tasks that they would be far better showing up to.
    fuck off with this accountability bullshit. that is about as empty a slogan as the ones you guys are pissing and shitting over.

    no, way more effort should be put into improving communities so cops are not necessary to deal with most day to day law enforcement. they should only be used in extreme dangerous situations.

    but of course that would require the government serves some function beyond lining the pockets of the capitalist class, so I guess it is all for nothing.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-15 at 05:53 PM.

  11. #71
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    boy, sure is a lot of hand wringing over slogans and not any effort put into why we should do police reform, kinda sus bro.
    It's all empty, dishonest deflection, trying to forestall meaningful change. It's the same thing as chanting "all lives matter" at BLM activists. It's the same thing as trying to marginalize the LGBT rights movement because "riots are bad". It's obstructionism, plain and simple.


  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    fuck off with this accountability bullshit. that is about as empty a slogan as the ones you guys are pissing and shitting over.

    no, way more effort should be put into improving communities so cops are not necessary to deal with most day to day law enforcement. they should only be used in extreme dangerous situations.
    I mean we should literally do both, this is not one of those things we have to pick and choose.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    I mean we should literally do both, this is not one of those things we have to pick and choose.
    nah, (insert "problematic" slogan here).

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
    You could do both?
    the issue is that the two aren't equal and connected in that way. the former is actively deterred by the latter.

    While we are working on the underlying problems we should enforce the laws and dont let criminals run wild because why not
    most 'criminals' are the result of the underlying problem, and the underlying problem is that we create the need for criminals to exist in the first place.

    this is the fundamental rot in civilization the world over, its just showing on the surface in the U.S. quite strongly right now.
    those in power make life shit for everyone in order to enrich their own existence past any reasonable (or even insane) extent of human decadence, make laws to prohibit any of the means in which everyone can react to being shit on to try to avoid being shit on, and then employ what is effectively a private mercenary army (the police) to violently oppress the population and put down anyone who acts out.

    95% of common crime would be eliminated over night if we just stopped forcing people to commit crime.
    sure there's a systemic element within human beings that will fail to adhere to the social contract, but that is a tiny TINY fraction of illegal activity.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The willfully ignorant spend zero time looking into it.
    The ones that aren't attracted by the slogan spend zero time looking into it.
    That's the reality: deal with it.

    I'm more more and more convinced that the slogan is so bad that it is an attempt to deliberately fail - I still haven't figured out why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yeah, not a requirement for any movement in history, you're just making stuff up to try and defuse a progressive movement.
    It's not a requirement - but that means it will cause some to lose interest after a brief investigation. Thus in combination with the other problems of the bad slogan it will fail even harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Really not, because here, you're just straight-up lying about the Defund movement.
    In what way? The point is that the Defund movement is intellectually dishonest by framing it as a defunding when it would need to fund both the police and the replacement at the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nothing in the "Defund" movement was about reducing public spending overall. Stop lying about shit, dude.
    You are straight up lying - I didn't write that.

    I stated that if attempted in a good way it would increase public spending overall and not keep it constant, because there would be a need to do both the social work (that in the long term would reduce crime) and the police work (to keep crime under control in the short run). Thus the focus on 'defunding' is misplaced.

  16. #76
    You have to assume everyone is stupid and start with that point. Then next you have to be willing to talk in line you would with teaching a child to tie its shoes, this is the way of the US its better to just deal with it like that then talk down or berate them as they will hurt themselves to spite you.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Living wage" isn't a slogan, it's a pretty basic term in economics.

    And "pro-choice" has absolutely been misrepresented and lied about in exactly the same ways as "Defund the Police" has, with misgynist shitheads shrieking that they're "choosing murder" or whatever stupid-ass talking point they have that year. The only real difference is we've got like a half-century of pro-life/pro-choice activity now, so the two slogans have been simple labels, where their original meaning doesn't even really matter any more.

    And in that 50 years, pro-lifers are still pushing the same lies about the pro-choice movement. Because they don't care that they're lies.
    Pro life has won popular opinion the world over even in the US, living wage became a slogan and it has overcome the "welfare queen" narrative the media pushed. You are not going to stop the other side from lying about you but don't make it so easy for them with a slogan like defund the police.

  18. #78
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The ones that aren't attracted by the slogan spend zero time looking into it.
    That's the reality: deal with it.
    I already am.

    What you keep avoiding is that the willfully ignorant are ignorant out of malice. So of course they don't try and inform themselves. Nobody expects them to. We just don't consider their objections meaningful. They're braying donkeys.

    In what way? The point is that the Defund movement is intellectually dishonest by framing it as a defunding when it would need to fund both the police and the replacement at the start.
    No dishonesty at all to the Defund movement.

    You're just straight-up, bald-facedly lying about the movement and its goals. That's why I won't entertain it as an argument.

    What you're saying is categorically untrue.

    You are straight up lying - I didn't write that.
    You literally just repeated it immediately above. That "Defund the police" was somehow "dishonest" because those funds could/would be shifted over to spending on other systems, like social work.

    You've said it openly twice now.

    I stated that if attempted in a good way it would increase public spending overall and not keep it constant
    Hey look, a third time.

    How am I getting you wrong, again?

    because there would be a need to do both the social work (that in the long term would reduce crime) and the police work (to keep crime under control in the short run). Thus the focus on 'defunding' is misplaced.
    This is trivially false and can be flagrantly discarded accordingly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Pro life has won popular opinion the world over even in the US, living wage became a slogan and it has overcome the "welfare queen" narrative the media pushed. You are not going to stop the other side from lying about you but don't make it so easy for them with a slogan like defund the police.
    In what world has "pro-life" won popular opinion globally? The USA is the only developed nation looking at attacking abortion rights these days.

    "Living wage" still isn't a slogan, at all. Nor was "welfare queen", for that matter.

    And I still don't see what's confusing about "defund the police", other than that fascist authoritarian types want militarised police forces and oppose it.

    Edit: Seriously, and this goes for anyone. What, exactly, is confusing about "Defund the police"? Be specific and detailed.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-07-15 at 06:51 PM.


  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Edit: Seriously, and this goes for anyone. What, exactly, is confusing about "Defund the police"? Be specific and detailed.
    I know you are smart enough to know why its confusing, when someone who doesn't know hear defund the police they automatically think you want to get rid of police officers. When you have to explain what it means to them they either a) think you are lying to them about your intent or b) wonder why you chose that slogan.

  20. #80
    Why would AMERICAN problems cause police in MY COUNTRY be defunded?

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