Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Funnily enough, the USA is far from having the most police officers per capita.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...olice_officers
    That's really shocking - one often get the impression that the US had lots of law enforcement officers, but instead it is even below the world median (prison population is a different matter - although that has decreased a bit).

    Combined with the other factors it more and more seems like the police in the US is a cheap over-stretched solution that isn't working.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    A lot of people don't want to hear a lot of things, but those who are *cough cough* reasoned, will listen, and have that discussion. Imagine thinking a fucking SLOGAN is going to just enlighten ignorant people.
    As already said more liberal cities aren't going to hear you.
    Portland Sees Spike in Gun Violence; Some Say Defunding of Police is to Blame

    Portland police warned that other cities that have made a similar choice saw spikes in homicides. Stockton, California, began disbanding and defunding police units dedicated to gun violence in 2010. Stockton then saw record homicide rates in 2011 and 2012. Data reported by the Stockton police shows homicides significantly declines after the city restored the units.


    -----
    As a result, Portland among U.S. cities adding funds back into police departments

    “Many Portlanders no longer feel safe,” Mayor Ted Wheeler said. “And it is our duty, as leaders of this city, to take action and deliver better results within our crisis response system.”

    Portland isn’t the only liberal city doing an about-face on police spending. From New York City to Los Angeles — in cities that had some of the largest Black Lives Matter protests, and some with an extensive history of police brutality — police departments are seeing their finances partially restored in response to rising homicides, an officer exodus and political pressures.

    In recent mayoral elections, some winning candidates have pledged to bolster public safety budgets. In Minneapolis, where Floyd was killed, voters rejected a proposal to replace the police department with a new Department of Public Safety.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    That's really shocking - one often get the impression that the US had lots of law enforcement officers, but instead it is even below the world median (prison population is a different matter - although that has decreased a bit).

    Combined with the other factors it more and more seems like the police in the US is a cheap over-stretched solution that isn't working.
    Maybe it should be "Fund the Police" for a slogan /s. As in more training and more bodies. While copying what is working for European Police though the context is different.

  4. #164
    And political candidates (even the ones that favored it) - don't want to list it as one of their issues - look at https://www.ocasiocortez.com/issues
    (Yes, I know it is not really an issue for congress etc, but still.)

  5. #165
    "Defund the police" in a country with a high crime rate, where everyone and their grandmother has guns and where there's a mass shooting every week.
    Sounds like a great idea.

  6. #166
    It continues to baffle me how many people can misunderstand something even after it is explained.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You have fucking mass shootings every Tuesday and Thursday and you want to defund the police.

    lol.
    Funding the police to stand around while kids get shot doesn't seem like a great investment.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  8. #168
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    It continues to baffle me how many people can misunderstand something even after it is explained.
    I'll take willful ignorance for $500, Alex.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  9. #169
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    It continues to baffle me how many people can misunderstand something even after it is explained.
    As we got into with SpecialKa; they understand, they just want a police state and oppose it on principle, but know that advocating more knees on necks isn't gonna win them any friends here, so we get this absolute bad-faith malarkey about it being a "bad slogan", because "defund" is a bad word, despite Republicans using it constantly and clearly not actually believing that bullshit.


  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As we got into with SpecialKa; they understand, they just want a police state and oppose it on principle, but know that advocating more knees on necks isn't gonna win them any friends here, so we get this absolute bad-faith malarkey about it being a "bad slogan", because "defund" is a bad word, despite Republicans using it constantly and clearly not actually believing that bullshit.
    More bad faith from you, not really surprised though. As it has been said by multiple people, "Defund the Police" is a bad slogan because it is not self explanatory and worse, can be use against itself by detractors like Republican. "Reform the Police" would be a far better alternative. Period. I know you do not get it, but I keep trying.

    Btw, the fact that you are not infracted after all the shit you throw at other posters is baffling.

  11. #171
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    More bad faith from you, not really surprised though. As it has been said by multiple people, "Defund the Police" is a bad slogan because it is not self explanatory and worse, can be use against itself by detractors like Republican. "Reform the Police" would be a far better alternative. Period. I know you do not get it, but I keep trying.
    It's entirely self-explanatory.

    We don't want to use "Reform the Police" because we want far more sweeping changes, which include significant reductions in policing and police funding. Y'know, defunding.

    Same way Republicans talk about "defunding Planned Parenthood", except that the goal for us is to minimize the number of innocents slaughtered by abusive cops who face next to no consequences for their actions, whereas the Republicans are pushing to victimize and harm innocent women. Cause, y'know, the objective matters.

    Btw, the fact that you are not infracted after all the shit you throw at other posters is baffling.
    Describing the dishonest tactics used by other posters is not actually against the site rules in any way whatsoever. I'm not in any way immune to infractions, and in fact currently have active infraction points on my account. Maybe I'm just, like, not breaking site rules nearly as much as you seem to think.


  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Same way Republicans talk about "defunding Planned Parenthood", except that the goal for us is to minimize the number of innocents slaughtered by abusive cops who face next to no consequences for their actions, whereas the Republicans are pushing to victimize and harm innocent women.
    The 'defund planned parenthood act of 2019' means completely cut federal funding for planned parenthood for one year unless they stop doing 'elective' abortion.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...house-bill/369

    So, why do some think that defund for something else mean completely remove the funds?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's entirely self-explanatory.
    And as previously stated: the US has few law enforcement officers per capita (and not very well trained it seems), and the military surplus hasn't cost much (only shipping and handling it seems), and any alternatives to police will take time to take effect.

  13. #173
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The 'defund planned parenthood act of 2019' means completely cut federal funding for planned parenthood for one year unless the stop doing 'elective' abortion.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...house-bill/369

    So, why do some think that defund for something else mean completely remove the funds?
    Because they're functionally illiterate?

    That's a pretty silly question, dude. Why am I having to explain why so many Americans have a limited grasp of the only language they generally know?

    Also, there's not just the 2019 Act. There's been others in 2015 and 2021. I can't be arsed to look up precisely how different they are, but clearly "Defund" isn't a scary word that chases voters away just because it was used. Which was the argument being leveled against "Defund the Police".


  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As we got into with SpecialKa; they understand, they just want a police state and oppose it on principle
    In his case, IIRC, he's actually law enforcement himself (or used to be). So this doesn't surprise me.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's a pretty silly question, dude. Why am I having to explain why so many Americans have a limited grasp of the only language they generally know?
    One party says 'defund planned parenthood' meaning 'completely remove funds from', and Trump defunds WHO (at least Vanity Fair used that headline) - meaning completely withdrawing the US government funding. And California defunded IWC https://www.dir.ca.gov/IWC/IWC_Defunded.html meaning it completely remove funding.

    So when someone says 'defund' and people assume it means the same, you call them illiterate?

    BTW The last example was from searching for dictionary definition - and dictionary.com has this to say:
    Based on these policy proposals, some people find the slogan defund the police confusing or misleading because the word defund can sound like a call to eliminate police forces altogether—which definitely isn’t something most activists are proposing.
    https://www.dictionary.com/e/what-do...bout-policing/
    That's literally the dictionary saying that the slogan is far from ideal.

  16. #176
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    One party says 'defund planned parenthood' meaning 'completely remove funds from', and Trump defunds WHO (at least Vanity Fair used that headline) - meaning completely withdrawing the US government funding. And California defunded IWC https://www.dir.ca.gov/IWC/IWC_Defunded.html meaning it completely remove funding.

    So when someone says 'defund' and people assume it means the same, you call them illiterate?
    Yes.

    The same way I'd assume anyone seeing the word "cut" and presuming it means "completely eliminate", just because it can be used that way in some cases. And then trying to argue someone talking about "cutting their lawn" means they want to remove the lawn entirely, or that getting a hair "cut" means you're going bald.

    It's exactly that illiterate.

    BTW The last example was from searching for dictionary definition - and dictionary.com has this to say:

    https://www.dictionary.com/e/what-do...bout-policing/
    That's literally the dictionary saying that the slogan is far from ideal.
    If you literally ignore the rest of the article and just pick that one sentence out, absent the rest of the context.

    Which isn't reasonable.

    Again; the people who are confused or misled about it are either A> failing to understand pretty basic English, or B> lying about their confusion because they oppose the movement. Even in the case of A, their ignorance is not the movement's fault, and the responsibility for their failure to understand is entirely on them, especially since just looking it up would've informed them otherwise.


  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes.

    The same way I'd assume anyone seeing the word "cut" and presuming it means "completely eliminate", just because it can be used that way in some cases. And then trying to argue someone talking about "cutting their lawn" means they want to remove the lawn entirely, or that getting a hair "cut" means you're going bald.
    A bad example. Cutting the hair or the lawn means that you use a sharp-edged instrument to separate the hair or grass-straws.

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cut

    When a scene is 'cut' it comes from the fact that they literally cut the movie by scissors around that scene.

    Defunding had previously generally been used for completely removing the funding from; not for reducing the funding; as has been shown by previous examples. In some cases it was gradual - but with a clear goal. If you believe the dictionary is saying that the language is clear you should read again.

    Apart from that it's the bad attempt at solution based on the incorrect analysis of the problem, and that's why don't even see AOC listing it as one of her issues. Please read the analysis in The Economist; they are crystal clear.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As we got into with SpecialKa; they understand, they just want a police state and oppose it on principle, but know that advocating more knees on necks isn't gonna win them any friends here, so we get this absolute bad-faith malarkey about it being a "bad slogan", because "defund" ..
    San Francisco, Philadelphia, Portland...liberals want a police state, or maybe they're too uneducated to understand? What narrative are you creating to explain the lack of traction here? Your best chance was in 2020 with the supposed "blue wave" that never manifested.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    As already said more liberal cities aren't going to hear you.
    Portland Sees Spike in Gun Violence; Some Say Defunding of Police is to Blame

    Portland police warned that other cities that have made a similar choice saw spikes in homicides. Stockton, California, began disbanding and defunding police units dedicated to gun violence in 2010. Stockton then saw record homicide rates in 2011 and 2012. Data reported by the Stockton police shows homicides significantly declines after the city restored the units.

    I think Uvalde is proof that more Cops does not equal more Safety.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I think Uvalde is proof that more Cops does not equal more Safety.
    Small town versus big cities.

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