Poll: Defund the Police U.S or anywhere?

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  1. #221
    Tony Blair has a good punch-line https://www.newstatesman.com/labour-...abour-will-die
    “Defund the police” may be the left’s most damaging political slogan since “the dictatorship of the proletariat”.
    But generally 'defund the police' hasn't spread across the globe, and it has faded in the US as well, as even 'the squad' sees it as counter-productive and have changed the message. Instead we see similar slogans like 'defund ICE' and 'defund hate'; which I assume means a goal of a modest reduction in funding for ICE and hate. /s

  2. #222
    wow you mean to tell me the feckless liberals of the Democrats are whiffing on a political issue they can win on? is it a day that ends with Y?

    all this discussion has told me is liberals and conservatives are pretty much identical when it comes to maintaining their comfort over a just society.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 05:25 PM.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As above, that I'm willing and actively do adjust my position when I get new information. I kneejerked to a conclusion, and then people like yourself said "hey, actually, check this", and I went "fuck" and amended.

    In this context, if I said "eww, defund the police? But we need police, dude." and then one of you pointed out "it means divesting some duties to better-trained experts", I'd again be saying "welp, got that wrong. Doesn't sound like a bad idea actually."

    That's the difference. My ignorance wasn't "willful", and I really dislike it when I'm wrong because I didn't bother checking my sources properly. There's so much bad news I've gotten sloppier than usual because I don't want to subject myself to this much negative crap all the time. But I'm also not gonna double down on a bad take, just because I don't want to admit it was misinformed.
    That is the thing, when you actually explain what defund movement means a lot of people are actually behind a lot of what it wants to do. That is why it is a bad slogan imo. A lot of people even including some republicans will get behind reform as even some of them will agree it is needed. Using more effective language gets the first foot through the door so you start in a better position. It gets people talking about what parts of the force they think should be reformed and how. At least from what I have seen you do not get that from Defund.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's a specific gesture that's literally being actively used by hate groups.

    And the context was Kyle Rittenhouse's use of that specific symbol, while hanging out with known white supremacists.

    It wasn't me saying any and all uses of that symbol are automatically white supremacism.

    Don't ignore the context, dude.
    If it came across as me accusing you of that it was not my intention, I was talking more of it does seem we are at the point of letting other people co-op symbols and words. I am personally against letting them, and fighting back against it(when used for negative purposes). All it does is embolden them and gives them power that they should never have.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    if a fucking slogan is enough to keep you from trying to make society better then, fuck off. like, I really don't get this infatuation with comforting people who clearly are so comfortable they can't see how the real world functions.
    That would be a you problem. Can you explain how even in the worse most marginalized neighborhoods of american, all those anti police slogans have very low approval? Is it everyone thats living the real world or only you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    wow you mean to tell me the feckless liberals of the Democrats are whiffing on a political issue they can win on? is it a day that ends with Y?

    all this discussion has told me is liberals and conservatives are pretty much identical when it comes to maintaining their comfort over a just society.
    No, its that these shit dont poll as popular to voters lol. It sucks we live in democracies, even democrat cant run on shit with 20% approval in their district. Welcome to the real fucking world.

  5. #225
    again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.


    but of course my time here has only highlighted that not only are those that benefit the most from the status quo fight the hardest to maintain it, they have also convinced other people who do not in fact benefit from the current paradigm that it's preferable. so, this isn't the surprise to me you seem to think it is. it's only confirmation of how dire the situation really is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    notice this thread is about what to do about police funding. not the slogan itself. but of course people who are not interested in dealing with the issue still think they have opinions people are the least bit interested in hearing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, we already have a huge thread about police brutality that's frequently updated and ya'll are out here pretending it's just in the crazy lefties heads that something needs to change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 07:31 PM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.


    but of course my time here has only highlighted that not only are those that benefit the most from the status quo fight the hardest to maintain it, they have also convinced other people who do not in fact benefit from the current paradigm that it's preferable. so, this isn't the surprise to me you seem to think it is. it's only confirmation of how dire the situation really is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    notice this thread is about what to do about police funding. not the slogan itself. but of course people who are not interested in dealing with the issue still think they have opinions people are the least bit interested in hearing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, we already have a huge thread about police brutality that's frequently updated and ya'll are out here pretending it's just in the crazy lefties heads that something needs to change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    Cool, now answer the questions instead of grand standing LARP. Why, even in some of the most marginalized area and groups, are all these slogans and cause like defunding the police or abolishing the police low 20% supports? Can you explain why without trying to make a fake reality. Can you explain why blm had and still had a decent high support, but none of the police stuff. Explain it without again making a fake reality.

    If
    -1 its needed
    -2 the support is not there.

    Why? There must be some reason in the real world why needed changes dont get the support. Give me your analysis of why.

    My analysis is simple. The changes are needed, but even among the most marginalized people the idea of no polices or less polices sounds very, very bad. Its where you have to actually work if you want changes. Thats the reality you live in. Not internet forums and Twitter.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-18 at 08:30 PM.

  7. #227
    making a fake reality in this case to you people is merely the desire to improve the world instead of sitting behind your 10 year membership tag telling other people what is or isn't the real world.

    I can go on about how propaganda works but then again I'd rather talk about what to do about police funding than your frankly sad need to keep talking about slogans.

    because let's be honest: any slogan can be made to look good or bad regardless of it's intentions. that's kind of the point, isn't it? to rub your hands over definitions and polling. not to actually tackle why we should defund the police. because you don't actually want to do anything about how the police or society for that matter should operate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    so, in conclusion: unless you want to talk about what to do to improve society then do me a favor and don't bother responding.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 08:38 PM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    Have you people considered why police think they need tanks to do their jobs? of course not, those tanks aren't going to be used, on you.
    As previously stated that isn't due to the police having too much money; the equipment is available for free (shipping and handling not included) as part of 1033 program.

    That program was scaled back by Obama and then increased again by Trump - and then there's something new from Biden; that's what happen when you cite articles from 2014.

    Note that it isn't 'tanks' - the military has some restrictions; they are technically 'tracked armored vehicles' - and Obama's executive order meant that 100+ armored tracked vehicles were sent back (and similar number of grenade launchers from before 1999 - the military then improved their standards so they are no longer part of the program, and 1,000+ bayonets; which they claim are used as knifes to cut seat-belts, which makes more sense than the US police charging trenches with bayonets). The program allegedly also includes military grade chairs and computers.

  9. #229
    why the fuck do you think I care about who is giving the cops tanks?

    why do they need military equipment if the intention is not to treat American citizen like their foreign combatants? because that to me seems to be exactly the intention, to treat American citizens like foreign combatants. so when they get the bold idea to IDK.... protest, they can come in and squash it as quickly and brutally as possible.
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 08:47 PM.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    making a fake reality in this case to you people is merely the desire to improve the world instead of sitting behind your 10 year membership tag telling other people what is or isn't the real world.

    I can go on about how propaganda works but then again I'd rather talk about what to do about police funding than your frankly sad need to keep talking about slogans.

    because let's be honest: any slogan can be made to look good or bad regardless of it's intentions. that's kind of the point, isn't it? to rub your hands over definitions and polling. not to actually tackle why we should defund the police. because you don't actually want to do anything about how the police or society for that matter should operate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    so, in conclusion: unless you want to talk about what to do to improve society then do me a favor and don't bother responding.
    So you cant answer the question got it. Thats how you accomplish no change, but hey you look correct on twitter well sometimes. You arent doing shit either, infact if people did like you, even less would get done. You think the voter population dont need to be convinced of anything. All you care about is talking about it. Which is literally step -1 of any changes. We already know why polices need changes, but its not happening because even the people that would need it the fucking most, seems to not agree with those changes. SO THERE IS THE ISSUE SOMEONE THAT ONLY TALKS ABOUT SHIT LIKE YOU DONT SEEMS TO GET. How do you get people to actually support and vote for it. You are literally not understanding the first fucking step. Why is it not supported, its not happening before its supported. So why do you not want to get it supported first? Nobody gives a shit about talking about it, HOW DO YOU DO IT.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2022-07-18 at 08:51 PM.

  11. #231
    wow, the people who sure love to talk about how pointless open discussions are sure love to get the last word in either way. almost like ya'll are bunch of hypocrites.

    regardless I know well enough the monumental task needed to get to the point where we can phase cops out of existence. but why should I waste my time and effort on that as some people so bluntly put it.

    again, why are you even bothering to respond at all if this is all you can come up with.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    wow, the people who sure love to talk about how pointless open discussions are sure love to get the last word in either way. almost like ya'll are bunch of hypocrites.

    regardless I know well enough the monumental task needed to get to the point where we can phase cops out of exitance. but why should I waste my time and effort on that as some people so bluntly put it.

    again, why are you even bothering to respond at all if this is all you can come up with.
    So the answer is you dont know, you dont care. But you wanna talk about it. Nice one.

  13. #233
    ending the war on drugs
    raising the minimum wage to 25$
    free healthcare
    free mental healthcare
    free childcare services
    gun control


    all of these things I am constantly told are pie in the sky goals when it comes time to debate what to do about improving society. it's really not that hard to accomplish all of these things, unless you of course are a capitalist and/or you just hate humans being alive and happy.

  14. #234
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    That would be a you problem. Can you explain how even in the worse most marginalized neighborhoods of american, all those anti police slogans have very low approval? Is it everyone thats living the real world or only you?
    Frankly, because Americans are one of the most-propagandized-to nations in the world. On the same scale as Russia or China. And a significant chunk of that is in getting Americans to submit to authority and blindly abide by police orders, no matter how abusive. The whole "cops are heroes" stuff, all the copaganda on TV (not all cop shows, just, like, most), the notion of "protect and serve" that's in the public consciousness while simultaneously police departments have pursued all the way up to SCOTUS lawsuits where they established they had no obligation to either protect or serve, in any sense whatsoever. And so on.

    Also, popularity only speaks to how likely such policies would be to actually be useful as a platform position for a politician. Their popularity has nothing to do with their inherent value and validity as an option. A lack of popularity is not an argument for abandoning the movement. It's an argument for better-informing the populace about what it's really about.

    Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.

    And sure; Americans may just decide they like their abusive and overbearing police state and throwing millions of dollars at police departments so hundreds of officers can kick back and take an hour's break while an active shooter continues killing children right next door. It's a democracy, and you sure can choose to maintain the status quo. But that doesn't justify that decision. Yes, Americans might continue shooting themselves in the foot and bragging about how awesome their footholes are, but that'll continue to be really, really dumb.


  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    again, all I get from you people is a desire to not actually bother dealing with society's problems. only the pathetic need to pretend to be upset over a slogan. mostly because you directly or indirectly benefit from the status quo, and you know this to be the case.
    And all we get from you is trashing your best bet for solutions to the problems you claim to care about and you know this to be the case. Spare us the hypocritical self-righteous indignation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.
    it is when you have no real argument, which explains 2/3rd's of this thread.

    or rather the person who makes asinine comments about how talking about issues online doesn't accomplish things.

    like no shit, sherlock. got a real argument?
    Last edited by uuuhname; 2022-07-18 at 09:12 PM.

  17. #237
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post



    I am not paid, I am not in marketing, yet I produced a way better slogan in like 5 min : "Reform the police".
    All you are doing is proving that people are talking out their ass when they say the 'slogan is the problem'. It's just that simple to come up with something, so if the slogan is the only problem then just say something else.

    General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-07-18 at 09:14 PM.

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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    General liberal, we don't try to solve problems, we just virtue signal
    ooofers, that's going in the finger snapping file.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Frankly, because Americans are one of the most-propagandized-to nations in the world. On the same scale as Russia or China. And a significant chunk of that is in getting Americans to submit to authority and blindly abide by police orders, no matter how abusive. The whole "cops are heroes" stuff, all the copaganda on TV (not all cop shows, just, like, most), the notion of "protect and serve" that's in the public consciousness while simultaneously police departments have pursued all the way up to SCOTUS lawsuits where they established they had no obligation to either protect or serve, in any sense whatsoever. And so on.

    Also, popularity only speaks to how likely such policies would be to actually be useful as a platform position for a politician. Their popularity has nothing to do with their inherent value and validity as an option. A lack of popularity is not an argument for abandoning the movement. It's an argument for better-informing the populace about what it's really about.

    Appeals to popularity aren't rational arguments. See the Trump election, for instance, and his continued support despite everything.

    And sure; Americans may just decide they like their abusive and overbearing police state and throwing millions of dollars at police departments so hundreds of officers can kick back and take an hour's break while an active shooter continues killing children right next door. It's a democracy, and you sure can choose to maintain the status quo. But that doesn't justify that decision. Yes, Americans might continue shooting themselves in the foot and bragging about how awesome their footholes are, but that'll continue to be really, really dumb.
    Then how the fuck do you expect to fix it? I didnt expect you to also be in that dumb group that rather speak about shit instead of finding ways to somehow expedient some changes, even if minimal. I usually agree with almost anything with you Endus, but not this crap idea. Oh yeah cool mabye lets talk more about the abolition of police that might or might not happen by 2100 when it comes to current political parties. Their popularity has absolutely 100% to do with their validity as an option, because you sadly live in the real world and right now. If something has a chance to happen you do it, even if its not the change you wanted, if its better, its still fucking better. Look if you want to scream ACAB and Abolish and go crazy in your private life thats fine. But stop complaining that your politicians and public personality dont partake in it. Dont call them traitor, dont call them spinless. They dont because they dont have the luxury of being a LARPer. They have to talk about what they can do RIGHT NOW.

  20. #240
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    it is when you have no real argument, which explains 2/3rd's of this thread.

    or rather the person who makes asinine comments about how talking about issues online doesn't accomplish things.

    like no shit, sherlock. got a real argument?
    It really feels like every climate change thread ever when people start saying things like "you can't say global warming and climate change; you need to pick one. You scientists are so inconsistent and can't keep your story straight".

    Those people don't have an argument. They just have willful ignorance. There's nothing you could ever tell them that will ever change their minds, and it's a waste of everyone's time and effort trying.

    And it really bothers me how many people are suggesting lying to others about your motives and intent because the lie is more appealing than the truth.


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