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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post


    The failures of California to adequately care for its homeless populations and deal with droughts are due to not enough government involvement in solving those problems, not "too much." The notion that "make things bad enough for homeless people and they'll finally get it together and stop being homeless" well, surprise surprise, doesn't work.


    uhmmm whaaa? Do you really think the government cares / it's wise to allow the government to get more involved when they don't? The sole reason why there's so many homeless is because contractors can't build enough homes due to regulations made by the government. The cost of land, labor, and building regulations = too much government involvement
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2022-08-04 at 04:55 PM.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Now if you look from Warcraft 3 to now, the changes are may be drastic, but if you look at the updated models over time, there isn't much changes.
    You can't always make a 1:1 comparison between RTS models and WoW models, because an RTS need to place their focus on top down readability and at a time where systems where much more limited, cutting down on any remotely performance eating details was crucial, especially when they barely mattered in an RTS game.

    Of course not every model looks identical but the general style still fits and i repeat, especially when you look at models that aren't used ingame but still in the Warcraft 3 engine, those are damn close to the ones we've gotten in WoW, where the artists actually had more freedom where they weren't restrained by performance issues or readability.
    So that original argument of yours "People used to say WoW looks like disney compared to WC3" really just feels like an asspull, because you have models in Warcraft 3 that are effectively beta versions of the WoW models.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I know a lot of people bring up the hyena model as a terrible update, but I'll be honest that old hyena model looked terribly out of place to begin with, I don't think I even liked the model even back then.
    You not liking the Hyena model does not automatically mean that the updated version is actually coherent to the Warcraft artstyle.

    You're free to enjoy the new artstyle, i don't really like it however because Warcraft generally leaned into a cartoonish but savage artstyle (at least where "savage" made sense) whereas stuff like the new hyena or Gnoll models may be cartoonish but they very much fall short on the savage aspect.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-08-04 at 05:48 PM.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    You not liking the Hyena model does not automatically mean that the updated version is actually coherent to the Warcraft artstyle.

    You're free to enjoy the new artstyle, i don't really like it however because Warcraft generally leaned into a cartoonish but savage artstyle (at least where "savage" made sense) whereas stuff like the new hyena or Gnoll models may be cartoonish but they very much fall short on the savage aspect.
    Fear not I don't like the new one either. Maybe I just don't like hyenas :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  4. #524
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    The model isn’t even finished in this build though, it has no animations tied to it.

    Like 2 weeks is by no means slow I’m just saying I still wouldn’t consider something a single artist probably worked on over the course of a day to be surprisingly fast.

    I’m glad they made the change though, it looks better.
    "it has no animations tied to it"
    It does, just they are not currently enabled, it uses the exact same animations as the regular gnoll.

    "Something a single artist probably worked on over the course of a day"
    Again, little to no understanding of how this actually works.

  5. #525
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drench View Post
    Actually prolly a chinese guy blizzard outsources alot of their artwork now.
    Lol what?
    Where in the hell did you get this idea?

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Lol what?
    Where in the hell did you get this idea?
    Blizzard having outsourced the in-game graphic assets of Warcraft III: Reforged likely means to them that Blizzard outsources everything. >_>

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Drench View Post
    This is what happens when you hire a bunch of people with no skill but based on race and other stuff.l that isn't relevant to good design.

    You get this lame cookie cutter Disney trash, this looks like some furry trash
    I mean eah its clearly some furry shit

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    I know people don't care about Hogger. All they care about is throwing tantrums over absolutely nothing.
    God yes. All of these people would never even look at the model and would t even know it changed if nobody had actually pointed it out. The feigned outrage is pathetic

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    uhmmm whaaa? Do you really think the government cares / it's wise to allow the government to get more involved when they don't? The sole reason why there's so many homeless is because contractors can't build enough homes due to regulations made by the government. The cost of land, labor, and building regulations = too much government involvement
    What in the absolute fuck does this have to do with Hogger? Those people discussing whatever that is go make a topic in general off topic and leave

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I said "handful" not "literally every model".

    For example, check out the Quilbeast Warcraft 3 model:

    The WoW model by comparison:


    Besides the spikes, you could almost believe they just ported the model to WoW.
    Which shouldn't be a huge surprise considering WoW was already very much in production when TFT came out (2003)
    Surprisingly, it was the other way around with this one. The Quillbeast, Dragonspawn, Hydra and Lost One/early Draenei models are all ports from early WoW, to the TFT engine. Their animations all have odd names to them compared to how WC3 animations are normally named, which is due to their source. Mind, all four models were edited a bit for WC3

    Biggest smoking gun to the WoW versions being developed first is that the Dragonspawn's textures actually have the fins on the back of the WoW versions that are missing from the WC3 versions. You can extract the WoW model and put on the WC3 textures, and they work perfectly

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    What in the absolute fuck does this have to do with Hogger? Those people discussing whatever that is go make a topic in general off topic and leave
    Didn't you know? Hogger is homeless because Stormwind jacked up the cost of living.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "it has no animations tied to it"
    It does, just they are not currently enabled, it uses the exact same animations as the regular gnoll.

    "Something a single artist probably worked on over the course of a day"
    Again, little to no understanding of how this actually works.
    Do you really think it takes more than a day to make a model? And I understand that it's a reskin, which is my point. I mentioned it has no animations tied to it to show just how rushed they were to put this out. The animations exist, they just haven't even gotten around to finishing this specific model yet.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    Do you really think it takes more than a day to make a model? And I understand that it's a reskin, which is my point. I mentioned it has no animations tied to it to show just how rushed they were to put this out. The animations exist, they just haven't even gotten around to finishing this specific model yet.
    Yes it does take more than a day because these models tend to go through high-poly modelling, then go through iterations for the approval process by the seniors/leads, then once approved, retopoed/optimized back into the appropriate game models. Rarely anything merely takes a day of work unless we're literally talking about a palette swap, which this is far from being. This is actually not a simply reskin, it is a new model that has visual differences from the standard Gnoll model. It might look like not a lot of time and effort was spent on this, but I can look at this right now and tell you that this isn't a day worth of work, knowing the process it takes to model and texture this.

    If it were really a day-or-less worth of work, there'd be no reason why they used a placeholder for Hogger at all. They would have already put it in with the rest of the Gnolls.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-05 at 05:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes it does take more than a day because these models tend to go through high-poly modelling, then go through iterations for the approval process by the seniors/leads, then once approved, retopoed/optimized back into the appropriate game models. Rarely anything merely takes a day of work unless we're literally talking about a palette swap, which this is far from being. This is actually not a simply reskin, it is a new model that has visual differences from the standard Gnoll model. It might look like not a lot of time and effort was spent on this, but I can look at this right now and tell you that this isn't a day worth of work, knowing the process it takes to model and texture this.

    If it were really a day-or-less worth of work, there'd be no reason why they used a placeholder for Hogger at all. They would have already put it in with the rest of the Gnolls.
    Or...they didn't use a placeholder for hogger? It's pretty clear that hogger only got a unique model because of the whining.

    Model work is a lot of work, but it can definitely be done within a day. The dude in this video remade the mechanostrider model within 6-8 hours IIRC and it was his first time using WoW's engine. The hogger model is just an edited version of the gnoll models already created, so I doubt it really took them that much time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtty...ab_channel=Tom

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    Or...they didn't use a placeholder for hogger? It's pretty clear that hogger only got a unique model because of the whining.

    Model work is a lot of work, but it can definitely be done within a day. The dude in this video remade the mechanostrider model within 6-8 hours IIRC and it was his first time using WoW's engine. The hogger model is just an edited version of the gnoll models already created, so I doubt it really took them that much time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtty...ab_channel=Tom
    you don't use the WoW engine to make models.
    He was using Blender, a popular free 3d modeling program and substance painter from Adobe. Importing them to the wow engine has little to do with the modelling process.

    It took him 33h to do 2 models and 6 textures. But the main issue isn't the work. It's the approval process and iterations that has to be made during a production such as Blizzards. It being a remodel doesn't change much. It do cut down the time but you still have to go through.
    He mention in the description it took him 2 full work weeks of free-time over a couple of months. Not that I think it took that long for blizzard, but that shows it takes time if other things soak up time, like it often do in production because of hierarchy(working with some US companies it seems like hierarchy is a big issue) and things need to be approved etc etc.

    Concept art (yes, you need to concept the new look)
    Iteration
    Modelling
    Iteration
    Retopo
    Iteration
    Texturing
    Iteration

    Not sure if they worked on animations, but I assume they have since the model isn't 1 to 1 to previous model afaik.
    Iteration

    He probably did iterations as well, but it's faster for him since he's the one giving himself feedback, waiting for feedback from another person kills a lot of time.
    Then when in a production you also have to work with the riggers and animators and sometimes they have feedback as well on the model about what can work or has to be changed for animations to work etc etc. Lots more cogs in the wheel than someone making a fan-remake on their own.

    The process probably took a week or maybe 2.
    So it could definitely be a result of the whining, but Blizzard don't listen to feedback, so it probably was the plan all along. And making the base gnoll first, which is why hogger got the base gnoll at first is a process that makes it easier to make new version of gnolls.

    A blizzard artist on themselves could probably bang it out in a day. I don't think anyone in any creative business likes the process that management requires, but we all have to deal with it.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-08-05 at 06:43 AM.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    you don't use the WoW engine to make models.
    He was using Blender, a popular free 3d modeling program and substance painter from Adobe. Importing them to the wow engine has little to do with the modelling process.

    It took him 33h to do 2 models and 6 textures. But the main issue isn't the work. It's the approval process and iterations that has to be made during a production such as Blizzards. It being a remodel doesn't change much. It do cut down the time but you still have to go through.

    Concept art (yes, you need to concept the new look)
    Iteration
    Modelling
    Iteration
    Retopo
    Iteration
    Texturing
    Iteration

    Not sure if they worked on animations, but I assume they have since the model isn't 1 to 1 to previous model afaik.
    Iteration

    He probably did iterations as well, but it's faster for him since he's the one giving himself feedback, waiting for feedback from another person kills a lot of time.
    Then when in a production you also have to work with the riggers and animators and sometimes they have feedback as well on the model about what can work or has to be changed for animations to work etc etc. Lots more cogs in the wheel than someone making a fan-remake on their own.

    The process probably took a week or maybe 2.
    So it could definitely be a result of the whining, but Blizzard don't listen to feedback, so it probably was the plan all along. And making the base gnoll first, which is why hogger got the base gnoll at first is a process that makes it easier to make new version of gnolls.

    A blizzard artist on themselves could probably bang it out in a day. I don't think anyone in any creative business likes the process that management requires, but we all have to deal with it.
    Ah okay, I was a little off on the time it took the guy in the video. It's been a couple weeks since I've watched it. But yeah, you pretty much nailed what I was trying to say in my original post. A single artist can probably knock the model out in a day, but the management pipeline being what it is delays it a bit. 2 weeks after the initial shitstorm is about what I'd expect for the development. It could be much slower but I still wouldn't consider it 'surprisingly fast' as some others had been saying.

  17. #537
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post

    Model work is a lot of work, but it can definitely be done within a day.
    Uhhh... No.

    For onezies, keep in mind a work day is 8 hours, not 24. Just so that's clear.

    Someone absolutely flooring it through something with no oversight working through lunch might be able to bang out something in eight hours. But probably not a fully textured model. And, as Kumorii noted, oversight is absolutely a thing that goes on at Blizzard. And even if they repurposed the other gnoll model, which I'm sure they did to some degree, there's a lot of large-scale and fine-scale detail that's different.


    Also, those mechanostriders, which are basically a bunch of inerpenatrating polygonal shapes are waaay easier to make, relatively speaking, than an organic creature model like Hogger. And that's not to disparage the guy's work; from a brief look at the video he did a mighty fine job. But that's just a statement of fact.



    Source: I'm an actual 3D artist, working in the industry. I don't make stylized things like WoW for my work, but I know what the modeling and texturing process involves.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #538
    I'm seeing a lot of comment about hogger whereever there is talk about this new model but to me this is the model of meatball. I'm really happy that the most prominent champion of most of the mission table minigames will be in HD and with new animations, etc.

    And could this be a sign, for those like me who loved it, that the Brawler's guild is making a come back?

  19. #539
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Didn't you know? Hogger is homeless because Stormwind jacked up the cost of living.
    the cost of human skin tents was the defining factor in this result
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    Or...they didn't use a placeholder for hogger? It's pretty clear that hogger only got a unique model because of the whining.

    Model work is a lot of work, but it can definitely be done within a day. The dude in this video remade the mechanostrider model within 6-8 hours IIRC and it was his first time using WoW's engine. The hogger model is just an edited version of the gnoll models already created, so I doubt it really took them that much time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtty...ab_channel=Tom
    Yes of course the work can be done in a day's time. I've done it myself for a HOTS april fools and made my own Hogger model in a day out of my already existing custom Gnoll model.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthe..._fools_reveal/

    But working in fan content and working at a game studio where work has to go through formal systems of approval is a very different thing. There's no one formally checking over fan work and getting things to be iterated and changed; it's in full control of the artist who can interpret it at will and choose whenever to consider the model complete. That's what you're missing here.

    In any professional modelling setting for a big company like Blizzard, hardly anything will just take a day, because everything goes through iterations and improvements, and we're not talking about people using the first model they finish after a solid day's worth of work even if it's really good. It still has to be approved before things even get moved forward into rigging and texturing.

    That is why the assumption that the Hogger model is merely a reaction to fan demand is quite unrealistic. The model has to have been planned months in advance in order for us to actually see the final product appear now. It actually can not be applied as some knee jerk reaction that they whipped up between patches because they saw some internet dweebs talking about it. It doesn't actually make sense if you actually know what a model goes through in order to make it to the pages of WoWhead and MMO champion. There are countless hours and days and weks of work you don't see going back and forth on the details which you never knew had to be fixed or changed.

    And just taking a look at this Hogger model right now, I can see the armor/clothing is modelled, the straps are not merely textures but would have had to be high-poly modelled to fit with the Rings and they would have generated textures off that high poly sculpt, the top of the mane looks longer and mangier, the scruffs on his jowls are a different pattern than on the regular gnoll, the rips on his pants are different than the pants of the gnoll, and the overall pattern of fur is different which means they may have also gone through a whole new fur treatment in the high poly sculpt. The key takeaway is that the more visual changes there are, the more likely there would have been back-and-forth iteration/approval process done before this bad boy moves on to the next steps.

    With this many visual differences, the approval process would not have been as simple as a day of work. As I said, this is far from simply a mere recolor, and taking longer-than-expected is literally why there was a placeholder for him in the first place.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-05 at 04:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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