Dragonflight Alpha - Build 44649 - XP to Level Changes

[Rustov]

Yeah, this is the issue with reintroducing talent trees in their current form with the current leveling system: they will run into the same 'problem' they did in the past, and that's having to add more talents and rebalance trees/talents/specs/classes to account for more talent points every expansion with each level cap increase. This was actually one of the reasons they changed from the old talent trees to the current talent system on live. This is also why borrowed power systems came into being, because it's easier to create then discard new toys for players self-contained within an expansion.

People should keep in mind that while there's a bunch of people excited for the talent trees again, there's extra work that will need to be done in the long run that can be deceptively difficult. Now, this doesn't mean we shouldn't expect this work to be done by Blizz, but it'll take time and work, the scale of which will vary depending upon how Blizz will do it.

I could list off a bunch of potential methods they could try, but that'd be a very long post... and honestly it's not something that would be implemented until at least the next expansion since many methods would involve either hefty revisions or fundamental changes to the game.

Blizzard will always suffer from the three fundamental character progression flaws: As you expand power systems, how do you address 1) Stagnation, 2) Bloat, and 3) Power Creep.

1) Stagnation - Players get bored of the same abilities, and the same systems, after a period of time. Not expanding power progression is not an option. You could make a perfect Vanilla-style 51-point talent tree, but it will become invalidated once you break that 31-20 sweet spot.
2) Bloat - The gravest danger. Indefinitely expanding any systems- talents, borrowed power, whatever- leads to a host of problems. How do new players catch up? How do you balance so many abilities together? Address homogenization? Accommodate so many keybinds? Prevent arbitrary grinds, but keep the journey meaningful (the lvl 120 conundrum). Avoid pruning, while players hate losing things?
3) Power Creep - One solution is horizontal growth- each iteration gives more options, but not more resources. It could work, except for the need to justify the new abilities/systems (to avoid 1) Stagnation), leading to a cycle of obsoleting old abilities/systems and removing them as options (in Pokemon, there are once-Uber tier legendaries who have fallen 3 tiers simply by not keeping up with newer mons. I'm sure TGC players have their own anecdotes).

There is no good to solution to solving all three issues. Borrowed Power was Blizzard's, and many other developers', unhappy compromise. You avoid the core flaws, but risk taking away a system players grow to love and replacing it with something they don't. Blizzard's particular formula over the last 3 expansions has also tied a significant grind to the borrowed power, so the turnover invalidates a lot of player's time and effort, irritating them. Perhaps that could be added as a fourth core issue: How do you respect a player's investment?

[pirlivewire]

don't worry the XP level nerf is just for eye show, i can garneted there will be XP per kill nerf to so it will take the same time to level

[Feral Druid ist Op]

People seems to forget that chromie time and BfA now covers 1-60 instead of 1-50. Naturally they need to reduce the xp.

ppl on this forum are not exactly the smartest guys in the room, blame them.

[Velerios]

You can still give talent points without increasing the total character level. They can be based on milestones in each zone's campaign. The only incentive that exists to level is to get to the good shit at the end, which speaks more to WoW's leveling process as a whole.

Sorry, but that is bullshit: then in the next expansion, you need to remove them again because new players would need to do the old content to get them or old players does not get a power-up at all. Nope, leveling is the easiest and fool-proof solution for it.
Personally i would go one step further and add paragon-levels as a progression-system too; because why not?

I simply don't see the value of an eternal 60 level just because some people doesn't want to level. Naturally i am biased because i want actually to level up. And a paragon-system could be an ideal solution to add some form of progression without any temporary system. Could it even have power progression: yes, as long as it isn't removed in the next expansion, that's it.

[supermany2]

Not bad. But i would rather finally hear something about the EXP Boost for Classic. It has been a while without anything new :/

[VoidSeeker199X]

They obviously want you to buy level boosts.

[El Gucaragua]

Sorry, but that is bullshit: then in the next expansion, you need to remove them again because new players would need to do the old content to get them or old players does not get a power-up at all. Nope, leveling is the easiest and fool-proof solution for it.
Personally i would go one step further and add paragon-levels as a progression-system too; because why not?

I simply don't see the value of an eternal 60 level just because some people doesn't want to level. Naturally i am biased because i want actually to level up. And a paragon-system could be an ideal solution to add some form of progression without any temporary system. Could it even have power progression: yes, as long as it isn't removed in the next expansion, that's it.

I'm not saying there's no point to do the process that is leveling. I'm saying you can do that without increasing the level cap, and only worry about scaling damage. There's just no point to increase the level cap other than an arbitrary feeling.

Paragon is a good example of what could be included and consistently added onto.

[Djuntas]

Not good enough. Lvling is still a chore. I want my army of level 50s helped with a pre-exp event that makes lvling faster...please :d

[Hitei]

Probably just to facilitate testing? XP requirements for an expansion are frequently lowered during early testing and then get increased to their proper amounts.

That said, it would be nice if Chromie time didn't just yank you out of existence at 50 (or 60 now), and instead debuffed you to have 90% of exp convert into gold or something.

[Lucetia]

Does this even matter? With world scaling lvl 1-60 quests give % of total level as exp as do mob kills,

They do and they don't. I tested this with my rogue on daily quests and regular quests as well. For instance, when I was 50 a quest would give me 4.4% of a level. When I hit 51 then it would go to 4.2% and when I was 59 it was down to about 3.3%. So it definitely does not give the same % throughout.

That said, it would be nice if Chromie time didn't just yank you out of existence at 50 (or 60 now), and instead debuffed you to have 90% of exp convert into gold or something.

I mean it doesn't have to. All you have to do is turn XP off or once you are 50 just go back and finish the quests you wanted. You still wouldn't get XP either though.

[Apexis]

Can you even finish a zone at this rate?

Under Chromie's time. If I stick to the storyline of quests and remove various pieces of heirloom as I level or wear no heirloom at all. I can complete all of the BFA content. I have done the same with Legion as well. If I start picking up treasures, killing rares, zone objectives, and dungeon quests, I can get 1-50 in a couple of zones.

- - - Updated - - -

That said, it would be nice if Chromie time didn't just yank you out of existence at 50 (or 60 now), and instead debuffed you to have 90% of exp convert into gold or something.

I just go back to finish out the quest chains or zones after Chromie ports me back to Org or Stormwind.

[Hitei]

I mean it doesn't have to. All you have to do is turn XP off or once you are 50 just go back and finish the quests you wanted. You still wouldn't get XP either though.

Yes, but "get ported out of your current location mid quest; go turn off XP; make your way back to the zone you were in; and fly back to the place you were questing to continue the quest you were halfway through" is a pretty terrible solution to the issue. The whole problem is that it's disruptive, so being able to go even farther out of your way to get back and finish what you were doing is just making the issue worse.

[Aydinx2]

Oh- okay, but why? The 50-60 I understand, they have always done this at the end of an expansion, but why any change for 1-50? Won't this make leveling a bit disorienting? It's already so fast you never even see much of the world.

Probably because they want you to get your core abilities at the top of talent trees quickly.

[MrLachyG]

thats great news, shadowlands leveling nerfed into the friggin ground

It’s all Chromie time from next expansion. 10-60 is Chromie Time, 60-70 is DF

[Lucetia]

Under Chromie's time. If I stick to the storyline of quests and remove various pieces of heirloom as I level or wear no heirloom at all. I can complete all of the BFA content.

Heirloom has had no effect on XP since Shadowlands as they removed all XP bonuses.

Yes, but "get ported out of your current location mid quest; go turn off XP; make your way back to the zone you were in; and fly back to the place you were questing to continue the quest you were halfway through" is a pretty terrible solution to the issue. The whole problem is that it's disruptive, so being able to go even farther out of your way to get back and finish what you were doing is just making the issue worse.

Or you could just do it before you go questing for the day. It does not matter if you turn it off at Level 10, 30, 45 or 49. It's only disruptive if you make it and try to use it as an excuse to do something that you can easily rectify yourself.

[Grax]

Sorry, but that is bullshit: then in the next expansion, you need to remove them again because new players would need to do the old content to get them or old players does not get a power-up at all. Nope, leveling is the easiest and fool-proof solution for it.
Personally i would go one step further and add paragon-levels as a progression-system too; because why not?

I simply don't see the value of an eternal 60 level just because some people doesn't want to level. Naturally i am biased because i want actually to level up. And a paragon-system could be an ideal solution to add some form of progression without any temporary system. Could it even have power progression: yes, as long as it isn't removed in the next expansion, that's it.

Leveling happens solo or during random que dungeons. The game explicitly tells you that other players aren't needed until you get slapped with trying to progress your character at the level cap. Continually raising the cap serves no practical purpose anymore, if it ever did (and I think it's one of the worst decisions I've ever seen in an MMO). Leveling is bad filler, with no or very few redeeming qualities like story or exploration, and, barring any changes in Dragonflight, is terribly paced. Classes are no fun to play at anything less than the cap and feel clunky and incomplete. Hopefully Dragonflight and the new talent trees change this, but I'm skeptical.

[varren]

Cool. Why are people getting outraged over this, exactly?

Getting mad at this in the era of paid level boosts is even more hilarious

[Gorsameth]

No, i can totally understand it: getting kicked out of chromie-time because you reached level 50 when you didn't want to because you are in the mid of a zone is a shitty feeling.
That said, this is an issue of chromie-time and not one of blizzard itself. (and yes, if you want to, you can level 49 and a few % before 50 and disable xp gain, but i can't understand why this is necessary to kick people out)

Yes a popup "your 50 and can't get more xp in chromie time, do you wish to stay or leave and continue levelling in the new expansion content" would be a good and simply solution.

[JMENGELE]

Leveling is dumb easy and brain dead anyway. This was a non-issue. Find ways to make the process more interesting and people would give Blizz brownie points. I could be wrong, maybe people are struggling with the easiest part of the game. Hard mode low level dungeons with XP bonuses while in the varying levels of hardmode would be sick. Have them give new heirloom's as a super low drop chance. Make leveling more interesting, the linear questlines in the late expansions are mind numbingly painful due to the lack of interesting story. The leveling itself is easy.

[munkeyinorbit]

Should remove levels in any future expansions above 60, instead have a system where you still do quests/dungeons etc but your character becomes powerful in other ways. In 3-4 expansions we will be at 120 again...

Which expac do you predict to be 20 levels? With your math, at least one needs to be 20 levels. Or is this just more hysteria from you?